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EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 1


gadgetman

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Cheese means cheese but that doesn't tell you anything about cheese.

If we trade with the EU we will have to accept their rules and regulations on the things we sell them. So if their politicians set rules saying we can only sell them cars if we wear blue socks then blue sock salesman will have field day.

If they say we can only sell them cars if we use paint that's environmentally friendly then that's what we have to do. At that point foreign politicians are dictating what we can and can't do.

We can dictate things back just the same and then our politicians are telling EU citizens what we can do.

Now take somewhere like the US, in my old job the US did not recognise British qualifications for certain kinds of work involving US companies, so I couldn't legally do stuff for US based clients. So we have US politicians telling us what we can and can't do. We don't have a trade deal or political union with them.

I'll repeat again, you don't need require political union to trade with anyone, in fact that's how most countries do business. Trade regulations exist in all markets across the world, that is not political union.

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No, international trade is not based on political union, other countries trade with the EU and are not in a political union, that's the whole point, or didn't you realise that? Which part of "Brexit means Brexit" did you miss?

 

It will be Politician and an army of civil servants who will thrash out the EU-UK Free Trade agreement or it will operate under WTO rules which, according to Ghosn, head of Nissan-Renault (and now Mitsubishi Motors as of today) will arrive at, over the next 4 to 9 years, what the details of the FTA will be and not only concerning goods but services as well.  This is bound to affect the operation of UK industries if they have to face 10% or so tariff, for example on cars in to the EU.  

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The bit we find out what it actually means. None of the leave champions know, no one in government knows what it means.

We know the BS promises Leave told us though. But not what is actually deliverable and what was complete fantasy.

Clearly you believe it's all possible without any negatives at all.

I never mentioned positives or negatives, that's your presumption, or rather narrative. I merely pointed out the facts, we voted to leave the EU, that means an end to political union.

Edited by TonyB1965
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Other countries who trade with the EU have to meet spcific criteria.

So you'd be happy to import good from China or Vietnam or The Phillipines which haven't been CE marked then?

In which case those goods would need the old fashioned Kite mark.

That means two differing standards for one product.

That means increased cost.

Why are you conflating trading regulations with political union? all markets have regulations, so what? most markets don't have political union, that's the point.

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I'll repeat again, you don't need require political union to trade with anyone, in fact that's how most countries do business. Trade regulations exist in all markets across the world, that is not political union.

 

Trade agreements all have elements of political/social contexts. Most countries are involved in some, or several, FTAs and/or the General System of Preference and have spent massive effort in cultivating FTA, bi-lateral or multi-lateral. The only exceptions I can think of are Peoples Republic of China, due to its economic domination in most sectors, and pariah states like North Korea.  This is why so many countries (99% of World trade) are active members of the WTO.  Not to take part in these types of agreements so in economically damaging.   

Edited by lol-lol
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Trade agreements all have elements of political/social contexts. Most countries are involved in some, or several, FTAs and/or the General System of Preference and have spent massive effort in cultivating FTA, bi-lateral or multi-lateral. The only exceptions I can think of are Peoples Republic of China, due to its economic domination in most sectors, and pariah states like North Korea.  This is why so many countries (99% of World trade) are active members of the WTO.  Not to take part in these types of agreements so in economically damaging.   

We're not leaving the WTO, we're regaining our own seat, that is not political union, I'm not sure how many times I have to say it.

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I'll repeat again, you don't need require political union to trade with anyone, in fact that's how most countries do business. Trade regulations exist in all markets across the world, that is not political union.

I know, but all trade deals are politically generated and controlled by definition. The requirements you have to meet are decided by politicians based on their political ideology.

We may end up getting a crappy deal with EU that is bad for the EU for completely political reasons.

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This is more like it :).

We have to remember we are all in the same boat so it is in our interest's to work together. We have some intelligent People in here we can put it to better use together.

Let's stop the doom and gloom and fear mongering because it doesn't do anyone any good all we get is panic and a loss of consumer confidence, as we are seeing now.

We've had a financial catastrophe already, in recent memory....2008. We came out of that alright many businesses have started since then.

It's not about a fairy tale it's about focusing on the positives instead of the negatives. It's a change of mindset. We've been waiting for the "Establishment" to get their act together for long enough now and they repetitively have let us down. Einstein allegedly said "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result". Well we've been doing the same thing of and over....... Time to regain our sanity. :)

What do you want?

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No, under article 50 a deal has to be agreed between the UK and the EU, otherwise any member state could just walk away.

Either we agree a deal to leave, or if we don't we just leave and all ties and agreements between us and the EU become null and void. That's what article 50 says.

We could just repeal the ECA and immediately would no longer be a member. So yes we could just walk away. As to what binds other members into the EU may vary but for us it is one piece of legislation.

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We may end up getting a crappy deal with EU that is bad for the EU for completely political reasons.

If getting all these fantastic deals was that easy the EU would have finished years ago.

Other eu countries are watching with interest. The UK will be made an example of your stop the collapse of the EU.

We'll get very little we want. Just enough to stop any impact on the rest of the EU, but I can't see what upper hand we have.

I stand to be proved wrong, but I get the impression this is why Farage wants to disappear from the spotlight.

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I know, but all trade deals are politically generated and controlled by definition. The requirements you have to meet are decided by politicians based on their political ideology.

We may end up getting a crappy deal with EU that is bad for the EU for completely political reasons.

That is not political union and never has been.

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If getting all these fantastic deals was that easy the EU would have finished years ago.

Other eu countries are watching with interest. The UK will be made an example of your stop the collapse of the EU.

We'll get very little we want. Just enough to stop any impact on the rest of the EU, but I can't see what upper hand we have.

I stand to be proved wrong, but I get the impression this is why Farage wants to disappear from the spotlight.

We are one of the EU's biggest markets, that's the upper hand we have, our trade with the EU has been declining with the EU for over 10 years and has been increasing elsewhere at the same time. Farage stepped down due to the amount of death threats and harassment he was receiving, he also achieved what he set out to do, it's that simple.

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Cheese means cheese but that doesn't tell you anything about cheese.

If we trade with the EU we will have to accept their rules and regulations on the things we sell them. So if their politicians set rules saying we can only sell them cars if we wear blue socks then blue sock salesman will have field day.

If they say we can only sell them cars if we use paint that's environmentally friendly then that's what we have to do. At that point foreign politicians are dictating what we can and can't do.

 

 

Do you honestly think the likes of china and India use environmental paint when selling things to the EU?. They will contain isocyanates and other harmfull things and when they get inspected and audited they just change the labels on the tins. Ive been through the mess that is CE marking we are now fully certified and jump through all the hoops required of us to comply with EU legislation, has it benefited us no because all the inspection testing and procedures equipment have made our products more expensive. Local authorities ask the questions when tendering but then buy from china, turkey or Poland anyway because they have hoodwinked them with falsified documentation. If the box gets ticked on the tender whos actually going to go to china and verify the material grades and environmental processes have been followed? Answer no one. This mainly hurts the smaller manufacturers in this country because they simply can't afford the massive expense of becoming CE mark approved. Therefor they don't even get access to tender. China and other countries in the EU don't see this as a barrier they just lie knowing people are never going to check. In short the EU and elsewhere don'y play by their own rules only us and probably, France Germany do.

This was one of my main reasons for leaving the EU its completely rigged and false almost Mafia like.

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We are one of the EU's biggest markets, that's the upper hand we have, our trade with the EU has been declining with the EU for over 10 years and has been increasing elsewhere at the same time. Farage stepped down due to the amount of death threats and harassment he was receiving, he also achieved what he set out to do, it's that simple.

But the EU may be quite prepared to blow a hole clean through their foot whilst standing on our head.

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We're not leaving the WTO, we're regaining our own seat, that is not political union, I'm not sure how many times I have to say it.

 

Suggest you read the WTO's own documentation.

 

https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/publications_e/wtocan_e.pdf

 

The WTO clearly has environmental, humanitarian and a whole heap of goals, beyond trade regulation, that can very much bee equated to the EU's so called political agenda. The WCO sets some of rules regarding classification, origin and valuation rules, there is no such thing as these aspects not having a political dimension. After GATT and then the Uruguay Rounds, and the issues with the Doha ground we have gone in a different direction since 2004 with the Bali rounds but it is still all about Developing and Developed countries getting the best deals in any way they can which is riven with political elements whether it is protectionism on agriculture, leaving arms outside the deals and many other factors.  Politics is always entwined with trade deals. 

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But the EU may be quite prepared to blow a hole clean through their foot whilst standing on our head.

If they want to cut their noses to spite their faces then let them, the other point, which Remainers often seem to ignore, is why would you want to be blackmailed like that? it's a bit of a clue as to the type of organisation we're dealing with here.

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Suggest you read the WTO's own documentation.

 

https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/publications_e/wtocan_e.pdf

 

The WTO clearly has environmental, humanitarian and a whole heap of goals, beyond trade regulation, that can very much bee equated to the EU's so called political agenda. The WCO sets some of rules regarding classification, origin and valuation rules, there is no such thing as these aspects not having a political dimension. After GATT and then the Uruguay Rounds, and the issues with the Doha ground we have gone in a different direction since 2004 with the Bali rounds but it is still all about Developing and Developed countries getting the best deals in any way they can which is riven with political elements whether it is protectionism on agriculture, leaving arms outside the deals and many other factors.  Politics is always entwined with trade deals. 

Nope, there is no political union with the WTO, that's a fact, they have no power over a country's constitution, there is no "political union".

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What do you mean by political union?

being sucked into a European superstate which seeks to end the nation state and rule over us, with it's own Justice system, parliament, Army etc which has supremacy over us. If you don't know what it is then it's no wonder you didn't know what you were voting for.

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But the EU may be quite prepared to blow a hole clean through their foot whilst standing on our head.

 

You have lost the moral argument when you propose the reason for staying is "think of what they will do to us if we leave". 

Its almost like Stockholm Syndrome. People have been held captive by the EU for so long they are terrified of freedom.

They crave the warm fuzzy feeling being controlled like an abused wife who won't leave the husband because she doesn't know any better

and has been conditioned to believe shes useless and probably doesn't deserve any better.

Edited by Scribbler
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If they want to cut their noses to spite their faces then let them, the other point, which Remainers often seem to ignore, is why would you want to be blackmailed like that? it's a bit of a clue as to the type of organisation we're dealing with here.

So, instead we do what?

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Well, obviously straight bananas don't require a CE mark but there's many products that do; they've been certified as safe after rigorous testing. Much like NCAP for cars.

CE marking is a good thing to ensure the safety of the products we buy, after all we wouldn't want to buy a tumble drier that bursts into flames and burn the house down would we? 

If that did happen I would think the EU would demand that those items are recalled and the owners compensated. 

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You have lost the moral argument when you propose the reason for staying is "think of what they will do to us if we leave".

Its almost like Stockholm Syndrome. People have been held captive by the EU for so long they are terrified of freedom.

They crave the warm fuzzy feeling being controlled like an abused wife who won't leave the husband because she doesn't know any better

and has been conditioned to believe shes useless and probably doesn't deserve any better.

We've spent the last year or so painting the EU as the devil incarnate whilst claiming they will fall over themselves to please our every whim when we leave.

The whole point of the EU is that it is better inside than out. Do you really think they'll just turn round and go "just kidding" and give us everything we ask for?

This is all 100% politics and agendas.

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We end the political union and negotiate a free trade deal, if they say no we walk away and get on with it.

So political union means political union does it.

Or is it a case that you wouldn't accept anything that gives overriding power or control to an outside body?

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