Running in TSI engines

[Auric Goldfinger]

On 30/06/2019 at 02:39, byteme said:

 

 I can't belive this thread is still going on, after all you don't run in a washing machine or an Airbus jet.

 

But Pilots don't give the Airbus Jet Engine the full beans until the Exhaust Gas Temperature is up to the required level. Same as I don't give my 245 the full beans until the oil has reached the correct  operating temperature

 

 

[penguin17]

1 hour ago, dg360 said:

Didn't BMW used to have a feature where the higher ranges of the rev counter gradually illuminated green? as the engine warmed up? Maybe they still do?

Yes, my dad had an E46 M3 which had amber and red lights around the rev counter, they would extinguish one by one as the oil temp increased.  Where the light extinguished indicated where it was safe to rev to.   It took quite a while for the last red light (redline) to go out. 

[byteme]

9 hours ago, Auric Goldfinger said:

 

But Pilots don't give the Airbus Jet Engine the full beans until the Exhaust Gas Temperature is up to the required level. Same as I don't give my 245 the full beans until the oil has reached the correct  operating temperature

 

 

Which has **** all to do with running in, try reading what I actually said!  EGT is only one of several factors to be within limits at take off which very often will not be at "full beans" anyway. Besides, they don't sit around waiting while this happens as numerous checks are made before take off thrust is applied. I don't know much about the Airbus but it will be no different to the turbine helis I'm familar with. Despite your totally misrepresenting what I said of course it's common sense to get oil temperatures close to optimum but the faiures that occur in modern engines do so usually because of design flaws and not usage.

[xman]

😂

[brad1.8T]

On 30/06/2019 at 11:39, byteme said:

 

I can't belive this thread is still going on, after all you don't run in a washing machine or an Airbus jet.

I worked for Qantas Engineering for 17 years - part of it as an aircraft maintenance engineer.

When you rebuild a gas turbine like a RR RB211 it goes to the engine test cell and is run through a series of manufacturer designated tests prior to the LAME signing it off as airworthy.  Generally (I didn't work out on the tarmac so I'm not sure) after it was hung on the wing it was sent to the run bay to make some  more noise.  I'd think these constitute a run-in process wouldn't they?

 

For a washing machine - agreed.

 

For a car engine.  I'm nice to them while they are cold but once NOT is reached it's game-on.  Run them in slow and they'll be slow (and use lots of fuel) forever.

Edited 18 July, 2019 by brad1.8T

[gumdrop]

There are 5 pages of good advice, my twopennyworth on running in,

keep your driving light use the gearbox and keep the engine spinning.

Without over-revving.

 

[digifish]

5 hours ago, brad1.8T said:

 Run them in slow and they'll be slow (and use lots of fuel) forever.

 

Fuel consumption (after basic power to the car) is all about internal friction. And so (as a Qantas engineer) what part of a slow running in, results in higher internal friction (forever) ?

[Bud]

Rotating engines and reciprocating engines are different.  

 

With gas turbines they always go the same way, there will be a running in period to ensure labyrinth seals bed in and get the best possible clearances to reduce gas leakage round the turbine blade tips.  As you heat the engine these seal clearances will change so getting the EGT up makes sure you are in the most efficent zone.

 

Reciprocating engines accelerate, decelerate and change direction, obviously at a a rate commensurate with the revs.  Rev harder or higher before the oil and components have reached their optimum temp and you will be inducing wear.  Some of that may be good as you get a match between the components and derive efficiency and longevity, some may lead to excessive wear and early failure.

 

Hence 5 pages of differing opinions!

[DEANO24V]

On 16/03/2017 at 20:57, Rainmaker said:

 

The 2.0 TSI EA888 gen3 in the new Superb has a lot of clever features, including an electrically operated pump to keep cooling the turbo after the engine is switched off. Problems used to arise when people ran a turbo engine hard, then cut the ignition without the turbo being able to spool down and cool down. As such the oil would burn off in the pipes and eventually clog them up entirely. The result was a dead, and/or blown, turbocharger. 

 

In theory, on the newer engines you don't need to worry as the electric pump keeps the cooling running long enough for the turbo to cool down with or without the engine running. That said, in my very humble (and likely very cautious / old fashioned) view it will do no harm to be careful nonetheless. Waiting a few seconds after firing up a cold engine before moving away, and then driving gently for the last mile or two home to give the turbo a chance to spool down and reduce its temperature before switch-off, are both basic mechanical sympathy and certainly won't do any harm.

 

Modern oils are thinner yet tougher than ever, electric pumps keep the coolant moving, and turbos are much more sophisticated. That said I'm a firm believer you can never take too much care of your vehicle. Well, unless you're so ignorant or misguided that your idea of 'taking care' of it involves doing things that actually harm it. Letting a turbo cool before switching off is definitely not one of those harmful things. JMHO. 

 

 

Sorry for quoting a large chunk of text. I've been trying to find out if the EA288 diesel lumps employ a similar technology. I've not been using the start stop due to me showing to some sympathy for the turbo lol.

Edited 2 October, 2019 by DEANO24V
typo

[digifish]

On 06/05/2019 at 16:18, digifish said:

 

1000 km and the oil is still bang on the delivery mark. 

 

My car doesn't get driven much, so at 1 year service it was at about 5K km. The oil had not budged from the original fill mark. 

[Okami01]

On 16/08/2016 at 22:06, Rainmaker said:

A few people have asked for this thread, so here it is. I'm not a mechanic nor an engineer, but I do have a fair bit of experience in this area (on both ends of the spectrum) and am happy to share what I've learnt so far. More importantly, despite other threads existing on the topic it might be an opportune time for other TSI owners to chip in with their experiences. Please forgive my verbosity and any omissions.

 

Overall, I would start backwards by prefacing thus:

 

Despite fierce debate online, and many conflicting articles, I really don't think running in a modern engine is rocket science. In the good old days, the big old push rod engines were made by hand and would have a lot of 'hone marks' on the metal, including inside the cylinders. Bearing in mind there was only one kind of oil - mineral - and it didn't last very long, running in was quite a complex procedure. You needed to provide enough lubrication to stop the engine lunching itself, but not so much the new moving parts couldn't wear each other smooth in perfect mating unison. All that worn metal left thousands of tiny (and not so tiny!) fragments floating around in the oil, which would then call for a 'running in service' not long after you took delivery of the car. Being too gentle could result in glazed cylinders, badly seated piston rings and bore wash - all of which are bad and all of which would require a top end rebuild to correct. Conversely, being too hard on a new engine (or indeed any engine) will accelerate wear and can cause its own problems, including a life of drinking its own oil. 

 

These days engines are (mostly) made by robots, which have a massively more precise output and are also infinitely more conforming. Engine 1 will be pretty much identical to engine 2, etc. In fact with modern synthetic oils, even after 150,000 miles one can expect the original factory honing marks to still be present and undamaged. Everything is built to such fine tolerances that the engine is perfectly 'just so' right from the factory. Because of this, many marques these days don't have any special running in procedure. They just advise customers to drive like normal and forget about it, and that certainly doesn't seem to cause any real problems. 

 

VAG (including Škoda) do still include running-in advice, and as such it'd be prudent to follow it. Regardless of what the Internet says, the people who designed and built your engine are likely the ones who know how best to treat it. That said, nobody can pretend that Škoda manuals (especially) are very clear or detailed - especially when it comes to the topic of running-in. The guidelines are very general, open to interpretation, and - respectfully - often in some Czech version of 'Chinglish'.

 

Generally speaking though, the manual's suggestion involves not exceeding 3/4 of the rev range for the first 600 miles, and then progressively increasing the revs (including, shortly, trips to the red line when warm). The manual also advises not using full throttle, not labouring the engine at too low revs (manual gearboxes only, DSG would not allow this even in manual mode) and also not staying at constant speeds and revs for too long at a time during the running-in period. 

 

This makes sense, as the end result is a drive that allows the new engine to warm up, and then uses most of its rev range to help 'stretch in' the new engine and its many components. You're not just bedding in one thing, but rather thousands of complex moving components, all mated together 'just so'. Luckily, due to the aforementioned excellent manufacturing processes you won't find lots of swarf in your oil any more, and a running in oil change is no longer mandated. Your engine, regardless of how well built, is still a new beast however - and still requires some TLC. Here are my own observations, and I invite your own!

• Make sure the oil is up to operating temperature (~80oC) before you start increasing the revs past around 2,500rpm.
• That said, once the car is warm don't be scared to use the engine. The worst thing you can do is 'baby' it and just drive it everywhere on the low end torque, never seeing over 2,000rpm. This will be almost guaranteed to cause you problems with seating the new piston rings and can cause issues with oil consumption in the future. 
• As per the manual, vary the revs. Your new engine will still be 'tight', and that is something you will physically feel as you start to explore the rev range over the weeks and even months after acquiring your new car. For example, there will be a slight resistance/hesitancy/flat spot in the power when you reach (for example) 3,000 or 4,000rpm. This is the engine resisting itself (to put it colloquially), and a manifestation of the parts claiming their space and rubbing up against each other under high load for the first time(s). Gently push through it, but gradually. 
• Once you get past about 600 miles you can consider the car mostly run-in according to the manual. At this stage, if you have managed to restrain yourself thus far (and I hadn't!) you can start to push further up the rev range. Perhaps 5,000rpm when accelerating, before dropping into a higher gear for cruising, then 5,500rpm or 6,000rpm the next time, and so on. 

There are a hundred ways to skin a cat, but they all have the same end result if you're careful. Drive away soon after starting the engine, never leave it idling, don't thrash it when it's cold, and don't cruise in the same gear and at the same revs for long periods of time. Ideally, on delivery day you would have a route planned from the dealership and back home via the scenic route. Moderate hills, twisty roads, varying speed limits all interspersed with nice straights are the order of the day. That way you get to warm up the engine, and then give it a lot of varying loads, speeds and revs (30 in 2nd, 50 in 6th, then 40 in 3rd and 60 in 4th and so on). Once your oil is warm don't be afraid to push the loud pedal, certainly you want to be hitting 4,500rpm at points throughout your drive, or at least as that's what the manual recommends. 

 

Repetition kills new engines (at least figuratively, if not literally - eventually). Even if you have to drive on a motorway during running-in (can't you hit 'avoid motorways' on the sat nav for the ride home?), at least vary your speed and revs. Provided the engine is warm, give it some beans in a low gear up the slip road, then drop into 6th for a short while as you get your bearings on the new road. Then drop it to 5th or 4th (still at 70), and after ten minutes drop back to 60 in 4th, or 3rd, and keep changing gear up to 5th/6th and back down again. You are aiming to keep the engine 'guessing', and to not let it sit too still for too long.

 

One important tip which all camps seem to agree on, no matter how they word it, is using the throttle to slow down as well as speed up, as much as you can. I don't mean full bore accelerations (though some do advocate this), but rather refraining from using the brakes as much as you can. This isn't actually anything to do with the brake system, nor the 'new' pads and disks. Rather if you're regularly cycling your speed between 30/40/50/60/70 (or more) and back again, doing it using 'acceleration sense' (i.e. by adding and removing throttle, without using the brakes) puts a lot of varying loads on the new piston rings, which in turn helps them 'seat' better against the cylinder walls. In the long run that will aid low oil consumption and prevent glazing. Belting down the slip road as you speed up to 70mph in 3rd, then taking off the throttle completely to allow the car to slow itself to 60 while you merge onto the motorway behind a HGV in lane 1 is one example. Sitting in lane one or two (as circumstances dictate) at 70/whatever in a particular gear, drop a few cogs and give it some beans into the next lane over, and then ease off the gas so that the car naturally slows itself back down, re-adding the power as you get towards 50mph so that you bring yourself back up to 70... all the while varying the gears and revs you're sitting in. That kind of thing. 

 

Those of you lucky enough to have advanced driver training (IAM, RoSPA, emergency services) will already be ideally placed. Just take it for a brisk run out across your favourite routes, taking in plenty of B roads, some fast A roads and a lot of changes in pace and gradient. Firm, brisk, and smooth - but definitely progressive - are the order of the day. Every drive - certainly after the first couple of hundred miles - can be a chance to push the engine, and its rev counter, that little bit more. You will literally feel it loosening up over the days and weeks after delivery, just enjoy it. Soon (especially after the magic 2,500 miles) you'll have a nice smooth, relaxed and revvy motor. 

 

You do have to bear in mind that not only is your metal new, but so is your rubber (tyres) and so are your brakes. That said, you can almost fully run-in a new modern car just on the way home, provided you have a decent and long enough route. It's always one of my great pleasures, and generally in our case involves a day out in Wales (well away from certain well patrolled main roads). Your tyres won't be providing optimum grip for the first few hundred miles, and your brakes will take time to wear in properly. A few firm stops can aid this, but don't plan them for when you are approaching that stationary HGV or a brick wall!

 

In summary (again), just drive the thing. Let it get warm, don't purposefully abuse it or bounce off the rev limiter in 2nd all day, but at the same time don't be too gentle. In the past I collected a new (diesel) car and - being young and naive - didn't quite get the gist of the whole 'drive it like you stole it / give it death' ethos. Having read online how white vans and hire cars are generally the fastest and loosest things on God's green earth, I literally ragged the poor bugger from cold, right to the red line over and over, and thought I was doing tremendously well. Until, that is, I realised even a year down the line it was slow and wheezy off the line compared to my brother's (identical, collected the same day) car and that I always got about 5mpg less than he on the same drives. I'd knackered the poor thing. Don't mistake progressive and hard driving with a lack of mechanical sympathy. Provided you get it warmed up, keep an eye on the fluids, and don't treat it like it's made of glass, you'll no doubt end up with a fine specimen which rewards you with years (and many tens of thousands of miles) of trouble free service. Just don't be too scared of that gas pedal... or a loud, high revving trip or three.  

 

Remember, OEMs take new engines off the line and subject them to 'torture tests'. The poor things are strapped to a dyno - or into a sample car - and revved through the red line, and kept at full speed and load (V-Max) for many days and even weeks on end without ever letting off the gas. They must get through some fuel!! However, they test them this way to ensure that the engines are capable of taking sustained high speed, high load service for customers, without coming to any harm. So, compared to that, you can't really do much damage... again, provided you warm it up first! Here's a nice example from a Ford test to give you an eye opener to finish:

 

Click me (YouTube link).

 

Sorry this is so long, but I hope it helps give those who asked some food for thought. Feel free to add your own experiences, which - in these modern times - may well mostly echo the 'I just followed the manual and it's been fine' ethos.

 

On 16/08/2016 at 22:06, Rainmaker said:

A few people have asked for this thread, so here it is. I'm not a mechanic nor an engineer, but I do have a fair bit of experience in this area (on both ends of the spectrum) and am happy to share what I've learnt so far. More importantly, despite other threads existing on the topic it might be an opportune time for other TSI owners to chip in with their experiences. Please forgive my verbosity and any omissions.

 

Overall, I would start backwards by prefacing thus:

 

Despite fierce debate online, and many conflicting articles, I really don't think running in a modern engine is rocket science. In the good old days, the big old push rod engines were made by hand and would have a lot of 'hone marks' on the metal, including inside the cylinders. Bearing in mind there was only one kind of oil - mineral - and it didn't last very long, running in was quite a complex procedure. You needed to provide enough lubrication to stop the engine lunching itself, but not so much the new moving parts couldn't wear each other smooth in perfect mating unison. All that worn metal left thousands of tiny (and not so tiny!) fragments floating around in the oil, which would then call for a 'running in service' not long after you took delivery of the car. Being too gentle could result in glazed cylinders, badly seated piston rings and bore wash - all of which are bad and all of which would require a top end rebuild to correct. Conversely, being too hard on a new engine (or indeed any engine) will accelerate wear and can cause its own problems, including a life of drinking its own oil. 

 

These days engines are (mostly) made by robots, which have a massively more precise output and are also infinitely more conforming. Engine 1 will be pretty much identical to engine 2, etc. In fact with modern synthetic oils, even after 150,000 miles one can expect the original factory honing marks to still be present and undamaged. Everything is built to such fine tolerances that the engine is perfectly 'just so' right from the factory. Because of this, many marques these days don't have any special running in procedure. They just advise customers to drive like normal and forget about it, and that certainly doesn't seem to cause any real problems. 

 

VAG (including Škoda) do still include running-in advice, and as such it'd be prudent to follow it. Regardless of what the Internet says, the people who designed and built your engine are likely the ones who know how best to treat it. That said, nobody can pretend that Škoda manuals (especially) are very clear or detailed - especially when it comes to the topic of running-in. The guidelines are very general, open to interpretation, and - respectfully - often in some Czech version of 'Chinglish'.

 

Generally speaking though, the manual's suggestion involves not exceeding 3/4 of the rev range for the first 600 miles, and then progressively increasing the revs (including, shortly, trips to the red line when warm). The manual also advises not using full throttle, not labouring the engine at too low revs (manual gearboxes only, DSG would not allow this even in manual mode) and also not staying at constant speeds and revs for too long at a time during the running-in period. 

 

This makes sense, as the end result is a drive that allows the new engine to warm up, and then uses most of its rev range to help 'stretch in' the new engine and its many components. You're not just bedding in one thing, but rather thousands of complex moving components, all mated together 'just so'. Luckily, due to the aforementioned excellent manufacturing processes you won't find lots of swarf in your oil any more, and a running in oil change is no longer mandated. Your engine, regardless of how well built, is still a new beast however - and still requires some TLC. Here are my own observations, and I invite your own!

• Make sure the oil is up to operating temperature (~80oC) before you start increasing the revs past around 2,500rpm.
• That said, once the car is warm don't be scared to use the engine. The worst thing you can do is 'baby' it and just drive it everywhere on the low end torque, never seeing over 2,000rpm. This will be almost guaranteed to cause you problems with seating the new piston rings and can cause issues with oil consumption in the future. 
• As per the manual, vary the revs. Your new engine will still be 'tight', and that is something you will physically feel as you start to explore the rev range over the weeks and even months after acquiring your new car. For example, there will be a slight resistance/hesitancy/flat spot in the power when you reach (for example) 3,000 or 4,000rpm. This is the engine resisting itself (to put it colloquially), and a manifestation of the parts claiming their space and rubbing up against each other under high load for the first time(s). Gently push through it, but gradually. 
• Once you get past about 600 miles you can consider the car mostly run-in according to the manual. At this stage, if you have managed to restrain yourself thus far (and I hadn't!) you can start to push further up the rev range. Perhaps 5,000rpm when accelerating, before dropping into a higher gear for cruising, then 5,500rpm or 6,000rpm the next time, and so on. 

There are a hundred ways to skin a cat, but they all have the same end result if you're careful. Drive away soon after starting the engine, never leave it idling, don't thrash it when it's cold, and don't cruise in the same gear and at the same revs for long periods of time. Ideally, on delivery day you would have a route planned from the dealership and back home via the scenic route. Moderate hills, twisty roads, varying speed limits all interspersed with nice straights are the order of the day. That way you get to warm up the engine, and then give it a lot of varying loads, speeds and revs (30 in 2nd, 50 in 6th, then 40 in 3rd and 60 in 4th and so on). Once your oil is warm don't be afraid to push the loud pedal, certainly you want to be hitting 4,500rpm at points throughout your drive, or at least as that's what the manual recommends. 

 

Repetition kills new engines (at least figuratively, if not literally - eventually). Even if you have to drive on a motorway during running-in (can't you hit 'avoid motorways' on the sat nav for the ride home?), at least vary your speed and revs. Provided the engine is warm, give it some beans in a low gear up the slip road, then drop into 6th for a short while as you get your bearings on the new road. Then drop it to 5th or 4th (still at 70), and after ten minutes drop back to 60 in 4th, or 3rd, and keep changing gear up to 5th/6th and back down again. You are aiming to keep the engine 'guessing', and to not let it sit too still for too long.

 

One important tip which all camps seem to agree on, no matter how they word it, is using the throttle to slow down as well as speed up, as much as you can. I don't mean full bore accelerations (though some do advocate this), but rather refraining from using the brakes as much as you can. This isn't actually anything to do with the brake system, nor the 'new' pads and disks. Rather if you're regularly cycling your speed between 30/40/50/60/70 (or more) and back again, doing it using 'acceleration sense' (i.e. by adding and removing throttle, without using the brakes) puts a lot of varying loads on the new piston rings, which in turn helps them 'seat' better against the cylinder walls. In the long run that will aid low oil consumption and prevent glazing. Belting down the slip road as you speed up to 70mph in 3rd, then taking off the throttle completely to allow the car to slow itself to 60 while you merge onto the motorway behind a HGV in lane 1 is one example. Sitting in lane one or two (as circumstances dictate) at 70/whatever in a particular gear, drop a few cogs and give it some beans into the next lane over, and then ease off the gas so that the car naturally slows itself back down, re-adding the power as you get towards 50mph so that you bring yourself back up to 70... all the while varying the gears and revs you're sitting in. That kind of thing. 

 

Those of you lucky enough to have advanced driver training (IAM, RoSPA, emergency services) will already be ideally placed. Just take it for a brisk run out across your favourite routes, taking in plenty of B roads, some fast A roads and a lot of changes in pace and gradient. Firm, brisk, and smooth - but definitely progressive - are the order of the day. Every drive - certainly after the first couple of hundred miles - can be a chance to push the engine, and its rev counter, that little bit more. You will literally feel it loosening up over the days and weeks after delivery, just enjoy it. Soon (especially after the magic 2,500 miles) you'll have a nice smooth, relaxed and revvy motor. 

 

You do have to bear in mind that not only is your metal new, but so is your rubber (tyres) and so are your brakes. That said, you can almost fully run-in a new modern car just on the way home, provided you have a decent and long enough route. It's always one of my great pleasures, and generally in our case involves a day out in Wales (well away from certain well patrolled main roads). Your tyres won't be providing optimum grip for the first few hundred miles, and your brakes will take time to wear in properly. A few firm stops can aid this, but don't plan them for when you are approaching that stationary HGV or a brick wall!

 

In summary (again), just drive the thing. Let it get warm, don't purposefully abuse it or bounce off the rev limiter in 2nd all day, but at the same time don't be too gentle. In the past I collected a new (diesel) car and - being young and naive - didn't quite get the gist of the whole 'drive it like you stole it / give it death' ethos. Having read online how white vans and hire cars are generally the fastest and loosest things on God's green earth, I literally ragged the poor bugger from cold, right to the red line over and over, and thought I was doing tremendously well. Until, that is, I realised even a year down the line it was slow and wheezy off the line compared to my brother's (identical, collected the same day) car and that I always got about 5mpg less than he on the same drives. I'd knackered the poor thing. Don't mistake progressive and hard driving with a lack of mechanical sympathy. Provided you get it warmed up, keep an eye on the fluids, and don't treat it like it's made of glass, you'll no doubt end up with a fine specimen which rewards you with years (and many tens of thousands of miles) of trouble free service. Just don't be too scared of that gas pedal... or a loud, high revving trip or three.  

 

Remember, OEMs take new engines off the line and subject them to 'torture tests'. The poor things are strapped to a dyno - or into a sample car - and revved through the red line, and kept at full speed and load (V-Max) for many days and even weeks on end without ever letting off the gas. They must get through some fuel!! However, they test them this way to ensure that the engines are capable of taking sustained high speed, high load service for customers, without coming to any harm. So, compared to that, you can't really do much damage... again, provided you warm it up first! Here's a nice example from a Ford test to give you an eye opener to finish:

 

Click me (YouTube link).

 

Sorry this is so long, but I hope it helps give those who asked some food for thought. Feel free to add your own experiences, which - in these modern times - may well mostly echo the 'I just followed the manual and it's been fine' ethos.

 

[Okami01]

Just now, Okami01 said:

 

 

Great post this, some very practical and pragmatic advice. Thankyou