EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 2

[S00perb]

On 11/12/2017 at 20:26, skomaz said:

 

Some may simply point out that the 50bn is a one-off payment, rather than a regular 13bn gross, (8.5bn net) each year and, as such will be wiped out over a short period (say over 5 years) once we are out by the lack of ongoing regular payments ad infinitum.  They might also suggest that we are then 'quids in' so to speak...

Pay 50bn over 5 years

Comply with EU trade rules (but don't have a say)

Have more open borders than ever before

 

This is what was just agreed. If NI has no border and no trade or rule differentiation, then all of the above becomes the 'deal'

And if we want to trade with them (which is why May just bent over bakwards for the above deal): Pay annual subscription to the EU to access trade

 

Its like the only option that was NOT an option in the referendum. Also the only option that ALL voters will be unhappy about.

Well done Maybot - you united the country.

Just call an election and see how much we love you.

[Bignij]

She won't go to the polls until after Brexit or 5 years depending on what suits her. Although, she probably won't be there.  I don't particularly want her or her ilk but that's the price of living in a democracy.....ish. 

[S00perb]

5 hours ago, Bignij said:

She won't go to the polls until after Brexit or 5 years depending on what suits her. Although, she probably won't be there.  I don't particularly want her or her ilk but that's the price of living in a democracy.....ish. 

 

IF we had actual democracy, fine.

BUT we seem to vote in local (county-ish) area elections for a representative who has to tow the line for decades to get a chance of any real power and maybe, one day, the chance to become the dictator. By then they have told so many lies they are so used to it, they can blatantly lie to your face without even recognising they are talking total BS.

We have a dictatorship by proxy and the best fibber wins in the long run.

Quote

It is simply covert statism, since it carries the illusion of freedom, by allowing the People just enough choice to believe it— but limiting this choice to irrelevance, by allowing them only to choose their government officials— not their government itself. And thus the People are subjected to dictatorship by Proxy.

 

[@Lee]

Quote

Brexit SHOCK warning: Britain will be WORSE OFF out of the EU under ALL Brexit scenarios

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/891217/Brexit-news-latest-Rand-corporation-Brexit-update-UK-economy-gdp-EU-European-Union-video

In other news; Bear spotted ****ting in wooded area.

I mean, who'd have thought, eh 

[lol-lol]

14 minutes ago, Lee01 said:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/891217/Brexit-news-latest-Rand-corporation-Brexit-update-UK-economy-gdp-EU-European-Union-video
In other news; Bear spotted ****ting in wooded area.
I mean, who'd have thought, eh 

 

[Rooted]

Any chance that MP's could stay off the alcohol and any non prescription drugs before voting tonight on the 'Withdrawal bill''? 

 

Probably not,

and likely the Conservative Whips Office is reminding those with that to be able to 'stand up and be counted' first you need to be able to stand up.

(Withdrawal Bill a good name for it & likely to be attractive to the DUP MP's.)

[@Lee]

Speaking of crooks; Fuhrage isn't a happy chappy
 

 

[@Lee]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-42310031

[lol-lol]

Just now, AwaoffSki said:

Any chance that MP's could stay off the alcohol and any non prescription drugs before voting tonight on the 'Withdrawal bill''? 

Probably not,

and likely the Conservative Whips Office is reminding those with that to be able to 'stand up and be counted' first you need to be able to stand up.

(Withdrawal Bill a good name for it & likely to be attractive to the DUP MP's.)

 

Ken Clarke is looking a bit flustered.  Well done Rebels............

 

 

 

 

 

[Ryeman]

I notice Nigel Farage appeared at a Roy More promotion event in Alabama with Bannon and other low crawlers.

I guess Boris felt somewhat miffed at missing out on the glamorous event.http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/13/politics/alabama-senate-election/index.html

[Skoda_newby]

Download this video and watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDaKtZuOmOU

Think of the big picture.

[Bignij]

16 hours ago, S00perb said:

 

IF we had actual democracy, fine.

BUT we seem to vote in local (county-ish) area elections for a representative who has to tow the line for decades to get a chance of any real power and maybe, one day, the chance to become the dictator. By then they have told so many lies they are so used to it, they can blatantly lie to your face without even recognising they are talking total BS.

We have a dictatorship by proxy and the best fibber wins in the long run.

 

You'll get no argument from me on that. However, it's the system we've got and it's far far better than a lot of other nations. 

[lol-lol]

10 minutes ago, Skoda_newby said:

Download this video and watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDaKtZuOmOU

Think of the big picture.

 

 

[domhnall]

On 08/12/2017 at 17:30, CWARD said:

You may have seen controls like the ones below before. Now imagine instead of it stating UK/EU and All other passports it says CTA and All other passports. People can be stopped just like they already are when going through these channels and enquiries made at random or to people that look they shouldn't be in the CTA queue i.e. the non Irish /UK registered or hire car, the family travelling on foot speaking French "Sorry Sir, you're in the wrong queue you need to be in the Non-CTA one just there. I hope you've applied for the correct visa otherwise we'll have to impose a penalty, then turn you around to where you came from. Have a nice day."  "Oh, you lied to Domnhall and you do have plans to travel to the UK. Well this is as far you're getting please pay your penalty and I hope you enjoyed getting this far before we turned you around." 

 

 

 

clearly, you have never been on a ferry or a flight  between Britain and Northern Ireland. Te arrangements you describe are the "border in the Irish sea" option. Today there are  no such gates or checks. You drive off the ferry and onto the roads and away you go. The DUP have been absolutely crystal clear on this, they will not accept such checks between one part of the UK and another.

 

I agree it would make sense and I said as much back when the vote happened. My in laws who are all DUP types were outraged. They still are. Most of my in laws don't have passports anyway, they have no need, and forcing people to get passports to travel around their own country is, well, likely to be an issue for some. Such checks are a red line for those keeping Mrs May in power. This is the circle she needs to square. 

[terrytowelling]

After paying this 50 BN and losing an estimated  35BN in trade a year we will still have to pay 12 to 15Bn a year to access the EU free market where half our trade is! Brexit thinking just doesn't make sense.

[domhnall]

On 12/12/2017 at 08:53, AwaoffSki said:

?

Why would there be camps if there are 'no border controls'. 

Where would they be waiting to go to if they can just go there with 'No Border Controls' to stop them.

Or do you mean waiting to set off on Boats and Smuggle their way onto HGV's to get across the Irish sea?

 

why do that, just get on as a foot passenger, get off and walk to the bus stop

 

 

[Rooted]

As is shown plenty on 'Stop Search Seize',    Cruise ship passengers just disappear leaving their passport on the ship as the passports are held while visiting ports.

 

Non UK Tax Payers but British Citizens come and go through Ireland and Northern Ireland all the time.

In and out of Britain is hardly difficult if you 'look British'.

Only reason people are stopped mostly is, 'They do not look right',  or is that Do not look white enough?

Smell right, dress right, speak right, all the ways people are profiled at ports and airports and transport hubs, ferry terminals etc.

 

 

Illegal immigrants posed as Aer Lingus ground staff to enter _Ireland as part of a huge human trafficking racket.mhtml

Edited 14 December, 2017 by AwaoffSki

[terrytowelling]

Its a paradox and can't be solved, brexiters just didn't think it through, they just kept repeating "project fear and scaremongering "

[CWARD]

3 minutes ago, domhnall said:

clearly, you have never been on a ferry or a flight  between Britain and Northern Ireland.

 

Unfortunately, too often.  It's a decision that is going to have to me made but they can't have an open border with the EU as well as an open border with the mainland. Even if  the UK government allowed it, the EU wouldn't. 

 

Back onto the passports even though not required.

Quote

Ireland/Britain Routes

Irish Ferries recommend all passengers bring a passport with them. Irish and British citizens do not strictly require a passport to travel between the two countries - some form of identification is however required. Please note that all nationalities except Irish or British require passports. Non-EU nationals should check with the British or Irish embassy before travelling as they may also need a visa. Passengers who turn up at our ports without valid documentation may not be allowed to enter either Ireland or Britain.

Useful means of identification when travelling on these routes are:

• Passport
• Driving Licence
• European identity Card
• Bank cards
• Photo ID (school or college)
• Utility Bills
• Birth Certificate

Ireland/France Routes

It is compulsory for all passengers (including babies) to have their own valid passport or officially recognised European Union I.D. card when travelling to and from France or Ireland. In some cases a visa may also be required. If you are driving a vehicle you will also need a valid driving licence.

It is responsibility of each passenger, parent, guardian or group leader to ensure that the documentation is valid and readily available for inspection at check-in. Irish Ferries accept no liability in this regard - the onus is on the passenger to ensure that the documentation is correct.

Non-EU nationals should check with the French Embassy or with the Irish Embassy before travelling as they may need a visa as well as a passport. A visa can take several weeks to obtain so please make the necessary arrangements well ahead of your travel date.

Passengers who turn up at our ports without a valid passport or an officially recognised European Union ID card (and a visa if required) will not be allowed to enter either France or Ireland.

Drivers of vehicles must carry and be able to produce a valid driving licence, failure to do so may prevent entry into Ireland or France.

Pre-departure boarding of an Irish Ferries vessel is conditional on the passenger(s) being in possession of valid documentation to comply with the immigration laws of the country of destination. This is the personal responsibility of the passenger. Irish Ferries shall also be entitled to recover from the passenger(s) all fines and/or other costs incurred on it by reason of the passenger's failure to produce immigration documentation satisfactory to the relevant authorities.

source. https://www.irishferries.com/uk-en/frequently-asked-questions/

 

Most likely result will be a border check between the north and south allowing CTA residents to move freely and all others to have their passports checked. This doesn't break the Good Friday agreement and maintains the borderless travel to the mainland. That only only leaves the movement of goods to resolve which no doubt will be done electronically allowing the smuggling to continue. 

[domhnall]

12 minutes ago, CWARD said:

 

Unfortunately, too often.  It's a decision that is going to have to me made but they can't have an open border with the EU as well as an open border with the mainland. Even if  the UK government allowed it, the EU wouldn't. 

 

Back onto the passports even though not required.

source. https://www.irishferries.com/uk-en/frequently-asked-questions/

 

Most likely result will be a border check between the north and south allowing CTA residents to move freely and all others to have their passports checked. This doesn't break the Good Friday agreement and maintains the borderless travel to the mainland. That only only leaves the movement of goods to resolve which no doubt will be done electronically allowing the smuggling to continue. 

 

 

yes but Irish Ferries between Ireland and UK - two different countries so you can argue why there should be checks, but for Ferries between Britain and Northern Ireland there are no checks because those are internal domestic routes. 

 

They deal last week is for no checks on the border - DUP won't agree to that and the PSNI are worried about the risk they would be attacked and the fact that they would need to have 267 border posts. 

 

Mrs May is caught between a rock and a hard place. She's agreed to keep an open border and to align the UK's regulatory regime with the EU. That will please the Irish government and the DUP but it will not be acceptable to half her own party.   

 

It's a conundrum. 

 

 

[domhnall]

29 minutes ago, AwaoffSki said:

As is shown plenty on 'Stop Search Seize',    Cruise ship passengers just disappear leaving their passport on the ship as the passports are held while visiting ports.

 

Non UK Tax Payers but British Citizens come and go through Ireland and Northern Ireland all the time.

Only reason people are stopped mostly is, 'They do not look right',  or is that Do not look white enough?

Smell right, dress right, speak right, all the ways people are profiled at ports and airports and transport hubs, ferry terminals etc.

 

they randomly check to ask if you have weapons or explosives on board.  We get stopped about one in ten times. You just say "no weapons or explosives" and they wave you through.   Once in 20 years we've had to open the boot so they could verify we weren't armed to the teeth

[Rooted]

You are observed all the time. 

Have been since the Troubles.  People are watching you.

 

ANPR.

Why Average Speed Cameras and others were first around the ports. 

While ANPR in England was not used to track individuals, Scotlands was. 

Why crossing into Scotland tracking criminals and terrorists was easier.

Now England, Wales & Scotlands system is used to stop / track Criminals & Terrorists vehicles / movements and even just those 

on the Grip defrauding the HMRC / Treasury / DWP.

 

 

I used to go across the water when tyres were being taken off lorries looking for explosives, 

and yet CB's from the USA were flown into Ireland, bought just on the border in Farm Shed / Warehouses, 

& then taken into the UK for £27 and £3 on each to get through Customs.  AM Midland 40 size CB's.  Boxes of them.

That was in hire cars etc.

 

Those Home Base CB's that started coming into Ireland then the UK started having drugs in them,. In the Unit at first, later just in the packaging.

Dwight D and other CB's the size of old style Video Recorder.

Lovely CB's for arranging all kinds of criminality,

Upper - Lower Side band Home Systems.  Just sailed across the waters unchecked.

 

Edited 14 December, 2017 by AwaoffSki

[CWARD]

It's certainly a rock and a hard place. The freedom of movement of people between the north and south is already part of the CTA and outside of the scope of the EU. The movement of goods is the problem.

 

If the DUP don't like that they would have to show some ID when passing onto the mainland then they will have to decide which they want most and that will include your in-laws. May is screwed which ever way they decide as they'll withdraw their support.  If no agreement, then we crash out of Brexit, they'll have a hard border, the GFA will fail and I'm sure your in-laws will like that even less than waiving their ID when they visit the mainland.  

 

[domhnall]

2 hours ago, CWARD said:

It's certainly a rock and a hard place. The freedom of movement of people between the north and south is already part of the CTA and outside of the scope of the EU. The movement of goods is the problem.

 

If the DUP don't like that they would have to show some ID when passing onto the mainland then they will have to decide which they want most and that will include your in-laws. May is screwed which ever way they decide as they'll withdraw their support.  If no agreement, then we crash out of Brexit, they'll have a hard border, the GFA will fail and I'm sure your in-laws will like that even less than waiving their ID when they visit the mainland.  

 

 

I think you are making the mistake of assuming that these people view things rationally like you do. For them, the issue of their Britishness trumps everything (even though they're not from the island of Britain). The country could go completely down the toilet and that's fine just as long as they don't have to have anything to do with the Republic. I've had some conversations with some unionists where they look forward with relish to a resumption of the troubles. 

[CWARD]

I'm fully aware of both sides of the divide from my time out there before the GFA. I still have quite a few friends on both sides of the border and the majority don't want a return to the violence and none would support the factions again like some had in the past. The ones I find most fanatical and stupid are those that left there long ago or how have distant relative from there but never actually been there themselves.

Of course there would never be a return to the same levels of violence as all the terrorists groups handed over their arms caches as part of the GFA, surely they wouldn't lie! Fund raising will be harder too when most of the money came from the USA and now they've had a taste of terrorism have cracked down on this.