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EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 2


john999boy

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6 hours ago, Bignij said:

I agree. I'm seriously thinking about retiring to Scotland before they leave the UK and rejoin Europe and stop me retiring to Scotland. :cool: If that makes sense? :D

I thought you voted Leave?

 

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1 hour ago, Lee01 said:

I thought you voted Leave?

 

Nope. I’m probably one of the biggest Europhiles on here, however I’m also one of the biggest realists. We’re leaving so we might as well make the best of it. Moaning about what may or may not happen is pointless. Let’s try to make the crash landing as survivable as possible. :cool:

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4 minutes ago, Bignij said:

Nope. I’m probably one of the biggest Europhiles on here, 

No you're not. I am :D 
As for getting behind Brex****........... never. It's become far bigger and far, far more troubling than just exiting the EU. 

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I thought I might have that title.

 

I was made redundant as a frontier customs officer in 1992 and now have to implement Brexit ie setup much of the new customs procedures and collect all of the billions of taxes at the border ie lots more business yet I am still not seeing hardly any advantages in brexit for UK people. Maybe getting real duty free back but that is about. Thankfully I have an Irish grandfather!

Edited by lol-lol
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5 minutes ago, Ryeman said:

Being able to trade as before but also discriminate against the otherwise free movement of EU members seems naive at best.

 

It is much worse than that.  For example the EU27 will import Canadian aluminium duty free whereas British companies would revert back to 7.5% before the EU Canada deal implemented in September.  UK would still give duty free access to Bangladesh goods under the GSP scheme. Few realize, even those in UK government just how bad it is going to be for UK business and consumer (except those in the implementing industries).

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2 hours ago, Ryeman said:

Does anyone seriously think that Russian wasn’t interested in wedging the UK and the EU?.

 

At least the Russians realised that a large percentage of the UK and US voting population were gullible enough to be influenced by racism and peddled "facts" that were not sound where as Remainers and the Democrats tried to have more intellectual arguments and over estimated the intelligence of the voting population and how they can be duped in to supporting with simple strap lines.    

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2 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

At least the Russians realised that a large percentage of the UK and US voting population were gullible enough to be influenced by racism and peddled "facts" that were not sound where as Remainers and the Democrats tried to have more intellectual arguments and over estimated the intelligence of the voting population and how they can be duped in to supporting with simple strap lines.    

It’s certainly cheaper than updating your nuclear stockpile.

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A couple of documents that crossed my desk that frame where we are ie EU in this post and the UK in the next one.....

(Basically says as soon as UK leave the Customs Union it will be required to make customs declarations and pay (at least) Import VAT at that country's rate.)  

 

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/notice_to_stakeholders_brexit_customs_and_vat_en.pdf

 

EUROPEAN COMMISSION DIRECTORATE-GENERAL TAXATION AND CUSTOMS UNION DIRECTORATE-GENERAL FOR TRADE

Brussels, 30 January 2018 NOTICE TO STAKEHOLDERS WITHDRAWAL OF THE UNITED KINGDOM AND EU RULES IN THE FIELD OF CUSTOMS AND INDIRECT TAXATION

 

The United Kingdom submitted on 29 March 2017 the notification of its intention to withdraw from the Union pursuant to Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union. This means that, unless a ratified withdrawal agreement1 establishes another date, all Union primary and secondary law will cease to apply to the United Kingdom from 30 March 2019, 00:00h (CET) ('the withdrawal date').2 The United Kingdom will then become a 'third country'.3 Preparing for the withdrawal is not just a matter for EU and national authorities but also for private parties. In view of the considerable uncertainties, in particular concerning the content of a possible withdrawal agreement, economic operators are reminded of legal repercussions, which need to be considered when the United Kingdom becomes a third country. 4 Subject to any transitional arrangement that may be contained in a possible withdrawal agreement, as of the withdrawal date, the EU rules in the field of customs (see below, 1) 1 Negotiations are ongoing with the United Kingdom with a view to reaching a withdrawal agreement. 2 Furthermore, in accordance with Article 50(3) of the Treaty on European Union, the European Council, in agreement with the United Kingdom, may unanimously decide that the Treaties cease to apply at a later date. 3 A third country is a country not member of the EU. 4 For a movement of goods that has started before and ends on or after the withdrawal date, the EU undertakes to agree solutions with the United Kingdom in the withdrawal agreement on the basis of the EU's position on Customs related matters needed for an orderly withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the Union

( https://ec.europa.eu/commission/publications/position-paper-customs-relatedmatters-needed-orderly-withdrawal-uk-union_en ). The position paper also addresses administrative cooperation procedures on or after the withdrawal date between the EU-27 and the United Kingdom related to facts that have occurred prior to the withdrawal date (for example, mutual assistance related to the verification of proofs of origin). 2 and indirect taxation (VAT and excise duties – see below, 2) no longer apply to the United Kingdom.5

 

This has in particular the following consequences as of the withdrawal date6 : 1. CUSTOMS  Goods which are brought into the customs territory of the EU from the United Kingdom or are to be taken out of that territory for transport to the United Kingdom, are subject to customs supervision and may be subject to customs controls in accordance with Regulation (EU) No 952/2013 of 9 October 2013 laying down the Union Customs Code. 7 This implies inter alia that customs formalities apply, declarations have to be lodged and customs authorities may require guarantees for potential or existing customs debts.  Goods which are brought into the customs territory of the EU from the United Kingdom are subject to Council Regulation (EEC) No 2658/87 of 23 July 1987 on the tariff and statistical nomenclature and on the Common Customs Tariff. 8 This implies the application of the relevant customs duties.  Certain goods which enter the EU from the United Kingdom or are leaving the EU to the United Kingdom are subject to prohibitions or restrictions on grounds of public policy or public security, the protection of health and life of humans, animals or plants, or the protection of national treasures.9  Authorisations granting the status of Authorised Economic Operator (AEO) and other authorisations for customs simplifications, issued by the customs authorities of the United Kingdom will no longer be valid in the customs territory of the Union.  Goods originating in the United Kingdom that are incorporated in goods exported from the EU to third countries will no longer qualify as "EU content" for the purpose of the EU's Common Commercial Policy. This affects the ability of EU exporters to cumulate with goods originating in the United Kingdom and may affect the applicability of preferential tariffs agreed by the Union with third countries. 5 This note does not address the general customs and tax free allowances applicable to goods in the personal luggage of travelers entering the EU. 6 The listing illustrates some important consequences in the field of customs and indirect taxation of the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the Union but is not meant to be exhaustive. 7 OJ L 269, 10.10.2013, p. 1. 8 OJ L 256, 7.9.1987, p. 1. 9 A list with such prohibitions and restrictions is published on the website of DG TAXUD and can be accessed here: https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/prohibition_restriction_list_customs_en.pdf 3 2. INDIRECT TAXATION (VAT AND EXCISE DUTIES) 

 

Goods which enter the VAT territory of the EU from the United Kingdom or are dispatched or transported from the VAT territory of the EU to the United Kingdom will respectively be treated as importation or exportation of goods in accordance with Council Directive 2006/112/EC of 28 November 2006 on the common system of value added tax (the 'VAT Directive'). 10 This implies charging VAT at importation, while exports are exempt from VAT.  Taxable persons wishing to use one of the special schemes of Chapter 6 of Title XII of the VAT Directive (the so-called Mini One-Stop Shop or MOSS), who supply telecommunications services, broadcasting services or electronic services to nontaxable persons in the EU, will have to be registered for the MOSS in a Member State of the EU.  Taxable persons established in the United Kingdom purchasing goods and services or importing goods subject to VAT in a Member State of the EU who wish to claim a refund of that VAT may no longer file electronically in accordance with Council Directive 2008/9/EC11 but have to claim in accordance with Council Directive 86/560/EEC12 . Member States may make refunds under the latter Directive subject to reciprocity.  A company established in the United Kingdom carrying out taxable transactions in a Member State of the EU may be required by that Member State to designate a tax representative as the person liable for payment of the VAT in accordance with the VAT Directive.  The movement of goods which enter the excise territory of the EU from the United Kingdom or are dispatched or transported from the excise territory of the EU to the United Kingdom will respectively be treated as importation or exportation of excise goods in accordance with Council Directive 2008/118/EC of 16 December 2008 concerning the general arrangements for excise duty13 . This implies, inter alia, that the Excise Movement and Control System (EMCS) on its own will no longer be applicable to excise duty suspended movements of excise goods from the EU into the United Kingdom, but those movements will be treated as exports, where excise supervision ends at the place of exit from the EU. Movements of excise goods to the United Kingdom will therefore require an export declaration as well as an electronic administrative document (e-AD). Movements of excise goods from the United Kingdom to the EU will have to be released from customs formalities before a movement under EMCS can begin. 10 OJ L 347, 11.12.2006, p. 1. 11 Council Directive 2008/9/EC of 12 February 2008 laying down detailed rules for the refund of value added tax, provided for in Directive 2006/112/EC, to taxable persons not established in the Member State of refund but established in another Member State (OJ L 44, 20.2.2008, p. 23). 12 Thirteenth Council Directive 86/560/EEC of 17 November 1986 on the harmonisation of the laws of the Member States relating to turnover taxes – Arrangements for the refund of value added tax to taxable persons not established in Community territory (OJ L 326, 21.11.1986, p. 40). 13 OJ L 9, 14.1.2009, p. 12. 4 The websites of the Commission on taxation and customs union (https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/index_en) and external trade (http://ec.europa.eu/trade/import-and-export-rules/) provides for general information on the rules as they apply currently to the importation and exportation of goods. The relevant pages will be updated with further information, whenever available. European Commission Directorate-General Taxation and Customs Union Directorate-General for Trade

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The second document is a UK HM Government one that shows that the UK position is to hope that other parties ie the EU and those numerous countries the EU has existing trade deals will continue then after the BREXIT leave which as we know may be as close a 400 days away....

 

To me it demonstrates that the UK is purely "hoping" to extend the current very import trade deals the deals with (CN, KR, MX, ZA and many others).  More than 300 days since Article 50 was triggered, nearly half way through the formal BREXIT period, the UK has only hope and is still formulating a plan rather than getting close to solidifying a deal as one would have expected at this late stage.

We need fast and constructive action to prevent a shock that looks like it could damage the economy to the tune of 5% or even more taking in to account tariff and non-tariff barrier........    

 

========================================================================================================================================

HM Government

TECHNICAL NOTE: INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS DURING THE IMPLEMENTATION PERIOD

1. The European Union (EU) has concluded a large number of international agreements with non-EU third countries. These agreements underpin the EU’s bilateral relationships with over 100 third countries that will have an interest in their continued proper functioning during the implementation period. These agreements cover a wide range of key policy areas including, for example, trade, nuclear cooperation and aviation.

2. The United Kingdom (UK) is currently bound by these third country agreements in its capacity as a Member State. Ahead of the UK’s exit from the EU, action is required to clarify the application of these agreements to the UK during the implementation period.

3. The UK proposes that these third country agreements which apply to the UK in its capacity as an EU Member State (as referred to at paragraph 15 of the EU’s negotiating directives of 29 January) should continue to apply to the UK in the same way for the duration of the implementation period. In other words, the UK would continue to be bound by the rights and obligations flowing from the agreements for this period. Multilateral agreements to which the EU is a party raise different considerations and are not covered by this note.

4. This proposal flows from the unique and time-limited nature of the implementation period. As the Prime Minister set out in her Florence speech, this implementation period would be based on the existing structure of EU rules and regulations. In its negotiating directives, the EU has adopted the same position. It has stated that “the Union acquis should apply to and in the United Kingdom [during the implementation period] as if it were a Member State”. This is echoed in the Commission’s paper on Transitional Arrangements in the Withdrawal Agreement, which states that EU law “shall be binding upon and applicable in the United Kingdom” during the implementation period.

5. Third country agreements are an important part of the EU acquis. This continuity in the UKEU relationship during the implementation period therefore facilitates and confirms the UK’s continued participation in EU third country agreements for the duration of this period. Moreover, the UK position is that the existing agreements are capable of operating and continuing to function both as between the EU and the UK and between the EU/UK and the third country or countries in question for the duration of the implementation period. From the perspective of each third country the agreements would continue to operate as they do now.

6. The UK will be leaving the EU in March 2019 and will no longer be a Member State from this time. However, the UK view is that the best approach would be for the parties to confirm that, for the duration of the implementation period, these agreements continue to apply to the UK and that the UK is to be treated in the same way as EU Member States for the purposes of these agreements. This would be achieved by agreement of the parties to interpret relevant terms in these international agreements, such as “European Union” or “EU Member State”, to include the UK.

7. This approach is underpinned by international law and practice, including Article 31 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties (VCLT), which provides that a treaty is to be interpreted in its context, which can include a subsequent agreement between the parties regarding its interpretation or application. The form of such an agreement under Article 31 VCLT is flexible and would be a matter for discussion. It would not be necessary, for example, to deal individually with each EU treaty. The key requirement would be the clear agreement of the parties that the underlying treaty continued to apply to the UK during the implementation period.

8. Such an approach could be used both to ensure the UK’s continued participation in mixed EU third country agreements to which the UK is already a listed party, as well as the continued application to the UK of EU-only third country agreements for the duration of the implementation period. At present the UK as an EU Member State is bound by obligations, and benefits from the rights, on the EU side in the case of both EU-only and mixed agreements. It is proposed, with the agreement of relevant third countries, that those rights and obligations continue to apply to the UK on the EU side of the agreements for the duration

of the implementation period.

9. We believe that such an approach has a number of advantages and would ensure an orderly transition:

It represents the simplest way of ensuring the continued application of these agreements during the implementation period.

It would ensure continuing compliance by the EU and the UK with their international obligations which flow from the agreements.

It preserves the integrity of the EU legal order by avoiding any problems created by replacing the underlying agreements with new bilateral agreements concluded by the UK.

It would avoid the risk of disruption in the application of these agreements between the EU, UK and third countries.

 

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On 2/16/2018 at 11:39, Bignij said:

I agree. I'm seriously thinking about retiring to Scotland before they leave the UK and rejoin Europe and stop me retiring to Scotland. :cool: If that makes sense? :D

 

don't count those chickens yet, all the UK parties here led by the tories are saying we would be crazy to leave England as it would be very disruptive and cause uncertainty, much better to stick with England and go down with the ship rather than head for the lifeboats.  They are starting project fear up again. Hard to know how it will pan out. And of course we need England's permission to have a vote anyway and they say we have to wait until at least 10 years after Brexit before they will allow it. 

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19 hours ago, domhnall said:

 

don't count those chickens yet, all the UK parties here led by the tories are saying we would be crazy to leave England as it would be very disruptive and cause uncertainty, much better to stick with England and go down with the ship rather than head for the lifeboats.  They are starting project fear up again. Hard to know how it will pan out. And of course we need England's permission to have a vote anyway and they say we have to wait until at least 10 years after Brexit before they will allow it. 

If you go down with the ship, you're going to drown. if you're in a lifeboat, you've got a chance. :blink:

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OTT, 

But as to counting Chickens, look what happens when DHL gets a new contract.

 

There can be all loads of fun coming with 'Deliver on time / just on time' and maybe just Import / Export, 

but how easily a business like KFC can be messed up when a Distributor messes up should be a warning.

 

David Davis MP is some guy just a chancer,  but on the scale of ar53s low in the charts compared to Iain Duncan Smith MP. Mr Diversion.

Worth watching on Iplayer that cheeky monkey on today's 'BBC 2 Daily Politics'  He has no shame.  

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Pension schemes generally had a good year last year with the large rise in stocks though the Trillion dollar loss in value at the end of January gave the market a jolt and we are in a new of more realistics valuations and a shift to the return of inflation on a worldwide scale not just an UK one which kicked in earlier due to the BREXIT vote result and following uncertainty and drop in the pound versus Dollar and Euro.

 

Jaguar Land Rover are suffering as most car producers due to the reduction in disposable income in the UK but their exports should be do well with the advantage of weaker currency.  Sad to hear that both the Hailwood and now the Castle Bromwich plants are now in slow down.  Let us hope the UK government will cut VAT in the near future ((maybe for more eco friendly cars, 5% maybe).   

 

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Was that a downturn due to the reduction in disposable income of Businesses leasing 'prestige diesel vehicles' 

cheapo finance / leases for those getting prestige rep mobiles,

or was it just less leasing or buying of diesels. The other option being heavy gasoline drinking models until they get out the EV's.

Ah what a shame, all that hardship that TATA must be suffering.

It must have broke their hearts having to shelf their plans for the VW Group Partnership with Skoda in India.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-42603271 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-39228426 

 

Who is to blame for a down turn in the sale of diesel cars, was it VW caught cheating with Diesels or was it the EU Governments that allowed the Diesel Scandal by fudging testing for decades.

EU Governments still at it including the UK that is a member of the EU & the UK Government often at it.

Edited by AwaoffSki
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58 minutes ago, AwaoffSki said:

Was that a downturn due to the reduction in disposable income of Businesses leasing 'prestige diesel vehicles' 

cheapo finance / leases for those getting prestige rep mobiles,

or was it just less leasing or buying of diesels. The other option being heavy gasoline drinking models until they get out the EV's.

Ah what a shame, all that hardship that TATA must be suffering.

It must have broke their hearts having to shelf their plans for the VW Group Partnership with Skoda in India.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-42603271 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-39228426 

 

Who is to blame for a down turn in the sale of diesel cars, was it VW caught cheating with Diesels or was it the EU Governments that allowed the Diesel Scandal by fudging testing for decades.

EU Governments still at it including the UK that is a member of the EU & the UK Government often at it.

 

Sales of JLR cars has been good in China and US but their % of the market still very small.  They do sell a lot in to Europe, despite the current exchange rate advantage, Europe main-landers just do not want them.    http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/land-rover/.    Home sales are key and that have massively dipped like everyone else due to BREXIT vote economic affects.  

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17 hours ago, Bignij said:

If you go down with the ship, you're going to drown. if you're in a lifeboat, you've got a chance. :blink:

 

oh I agree but you have almost the entire print media lobbying against the lifeboat option and the BBC admitted during the 2014 referendum (the last time we explored the lifeboat option) that they were under no obligation to be impartial. Social media's imp[act is often talked up but plenty people still believe what they read in the paper and see on the TV. And the constant refrain is that the Scottish Government is failing and that the lifeboat is risky as a course of action. 

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lol-lol,

Their % of the market is very small.

Skoda Global Market not that much more when they were biging up supplying a million vehicles just the other year.

I wonder who made more profits, the manufacturer shifting 600,000 more prestige vehicles or the brand that is part of the VW Group shifting 1,000,000?

Edited by AwaoffSki
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6 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Pension schemes generally had a good year last year with the large rise in stocks though the Trillion dollar loss in value at the end of January gave the market a jolt and we are in a new of more realistics valuations and a shift to the return of inflation on a worldwide scale not just an UK one which kicked in earlier due to the BREXIT vote result and following uncertainty and drop in the pound versus Dollar and Euro.

 

Jaguar Land Rover are suffering as most car producers due to the reduction in disposable income in the UK but their exports should be do well with the advantage of weaker currency.  Sad to hear that both the Hailwood and now the Castle Bromwich plants are now in slow down.  Let us hope the UK government will cut VAT in the near future ((maybe for more eco friendly cars, 5% maybe).   

 

 

Maybe JLR need to build stuff that is affordable then rather than pushing themselves up market and pricing themselves out of business.  They are certainly not on my list of vehicles as a result of their pricing and I do OK...

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17 hours ago, Lee01 said:
 

 

So a £567 million deficit was acceptable then? Why don't these companies pay what they're supposed to? It's the workers who are generating the huge incomes for them yet their pensions that are shafted. I bet the shareholders got a good divi. :) 

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1 hour ago, skomaz said:

 

Maybe JLR need to build stuff that is affordable then rather than pushing themselves up market and pricing themselves out of business.  They are certainly not on my list of vehicles as a result of their pricing and I do OK...

 

I do flip between indifferent a slightly warm for the XE.  The new E-pace does not look enough Jaaag like to me.  Loved my S-Type styling.  

If we get a hard BREXIT and the return of 10% car duties then JLR would need to focus more on UK sales as EU sales would decline and EU cars become more expensive here so XE, XF etc be comparatively better value.  You can get around £4k even off the cheaper Jaaags.  But in the current climate one can get ov er 25% off by Skoda and other VAG models as they try and shift them !

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