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Fabia Suddenly Stops, ECU Fuse Replaced, Now Won't Stop At All!


NeilTM

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Yes, I think that's what I was saying.

Just thought of another useful measurement comparison you could do. Resistance of relay coil, old and new. Can't tell you pin numbers right now as I'm out walking the dog, but I reckon you can work it out. Use the pin without the diode.

If the coil on the old one has gone short circuit it could explain fuse blow and diode failure, I think.

Already checked that, and they are very similar readings.  I also worked the new relay and it clicks.

 

Neil

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felicia16v and mogwye,

Could you tell me what years and models your cars were that you had to replace the vacuum pipes on please? I'm trying to get a picture of how long this problem which began at least on 1997 cars has continued for, and even if it is still afflicting new cars.

I work at a skoda specialist so seen it happen from the 1st octavia basically and still occurring now but not as often.
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One curiosity or anomaly

 

I work at a skoda specialist so seen it happen from the 1st octavia basically and still occurring now but not as often.

 

Ah, that's an interesting vantage point you have then, and why the OEM replacements don't impress you much I suppose?

To try to get something of a handle on the different material pipe run4mo reports on the SEAT Inca, have all the pipes you have encountered been the shiny plastiky ones?

Roughly how many fabias with this and how late could you say?

 

Thanks,    Neil

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Been checking over wiring most of the afternoon.  Found one possible anomaly which is a blue and white wire going to the female half of the plug mounted on the bulkhead just behind the battery , and which joins a larger cable form I think under the battery.  It has continuity with earth, and slightly more resistance than the brown earth wire at that plug as might be expected if a longer run to earth is being measured.

 

Why would a blue and white wire be an earth wire, or earthed?   This is with the battery earth disconnected.  Its counterpart to the pins on the other half of the connector has no connection to earth.

 

Have got hold of wiring diagram at https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-q8oWU1tefoQjBKQ3ZzM3FKUDQ/view but haven't managed to match up what we're looking at with it yet.  Decided because of this not to try the new relay until we've checked all we can on this front.

 

Any insights on this would be much appreciated.

 

Neil

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This connector? If so, which pin number, 5? (As usual, click image for larger version).  Seems to be the high-side feed to the fuel injectors, via fuse 35, originating at the fuel pump relay output, I think? pdf page 304, current track 34/118 in the doc you've found?  Is my photo the female half or the male?

 

20161215_203539.jpg

Edited by Wino
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I need help interpreting the wiring diagrams.  The blue and white wire above (it is the female half in Wino's excellent picture) - pin 5 had continuity with earth at the female half when disconnected.   I can trace where that goes, but what it is not telling me is whether it should or shouldn't be connected to earth, at least I don't know how to interpret the wiring diagram.

 

Neil

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VACUUM SERVO PIPE:

 

felicia 16v, could you possibly give details of what pipe you have used to rebuild these pipes as I'm not having much luck locally.

 

Tried a couple of car spares places locally, and even the one that supplies all the local garages with just about everything, Motor Serv, had nothing at all generic on a reel.

 

So I called in on Pirtek, which is literally walking distance from my home, who specialise in hoses, but came away with a couple of samples, neither of which I feel will be any good.

 

They had nothing described as vacuum hose, only air hose.  One was a nice thick woven reinforced 'rubber' 60 bar air pressure hose.  It is hard to imagine it collapsing under a vacuum from the engine, although with finger and thumb on an end I could just about close it off, but not in the middle of its length, so I feel this is too uncertain to risk, even though the degree of vacuum might be well withing its capability to withstand. Guessing isn't good enough. The other was a steel reinforced rubber, more flexible than the stiff stuff originally fitted, but less forgiving of being forced over too large a union, and about 9.5mm internally.  I would trust the pipe, I could not begin to pinch it, but it won't fit over and the next size up is too sloppy

 

Lots of stuff claiming to be vacuum hose on ebay, but not sure how I would trust any of it, and most of it looking like the VW dooh dah.   I want to see a made for purpose specifically vacuum pipe with data sheet and spec before I put something on daughter's car.  Quaintly, the sizes seemed to be in imperial, although approximate metric was cited, so there was 3/8" and 1/2" pipes, the one too small, the other too big for these plastic unions which I measure as 12.5mm approx maximum diameter across the top of the 'barbs', or 10.4mm at the narrowest between the barbs.  The steel reinforced nominal 10, but actually 9.5 the Pertek man said, will not force over it even with lubrication.

 

There must be something proper made?

 

Neil T

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I know you don't want to buy an OEM replacement but, as I have previously the latest Skoda version is obviously now well and truly tested and is (re)designed for the job. I would not like to mess around trying to find an alternative, especially when being able to stop the car is paramount.

 

DB

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I need help interpreting the wiring diagrams. The blue and white wire above (it is the female half in Wino's excellent picture) - pin 5 had continuity with earth at the female half when disconnected. I can trace where that goes, but what it is not telling me is whether it should or shouldn't be connected to earth, at least I don't know how to interpret the wiring diagram.

Neil

Did my email answer this?

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I know you don't want to buy an OEM replacement but, as I have previously the latest Skoda version is obviously now well and truly tested and is (re)designed for the job. I would not like to mess around trying to find an alternative, especially when being able to stop the car is paramount.

 

DB

 

Please can you say how it is obvious that the new offering "is obviously now well and truly tested and is (re)designed for the job"?  Or is this an assumption on your part based on trust in the VW group they have been busy betraying big time for most if not all of the life of the fabia, and other VW AUDI group models?  I'm not being funny, this is a genuine question, because if you are merely making assumptions you must surely be in good company since it can only be through such assumptions, not put to any test, that the DVSA has managed not to notice that the fabia should have been recalled for the identical fault.  The service book for our fabia printed in 2005 states that all pipes under the bonnet should be inspected once a year for leaks, a gloriously vague statement that does nothing to focus attention on the vacuum servo pipe in particular, known to the group since at least 2003 to be defective which is the date of the first recalls.  This looks to me like sweeping things under the carpet.  How can you trust their integrity?  They have form.  I know it is hard to get your head around something like this, such is their reputation for quality, but if everyone so believes in this then that is an exploitable self fulfilling prophesy is it not?   There are no end of brand names that now produce rubbish that merely trades on an earlier reputation for quality.  Look up reviews for 'thermos' or Stanley vacuum flasks for eg.

 

As for messing about - please see my previous post.  I have no intention of messing about, and every intention of finding something that can be relied upon because it is made for the job.  A generic vacuum hose is surely worth searching for since the job it is called upon to do must surely be the same as for any other car brake servo pipe?  If the pipe is a good fit, is flexible and tested to more than the vacuum the car will produce and intended for such applications, then where could the problem be? This is not rocket science. It's VW who have been messing about.

 

I think you should to be OK if you inspect your pipe regularly, now knowing what to look for, but remember that it is only this forum or your own or your garages vigilance that  has alerted you to this potential problem, which you presumably have already experienced since you replaced yours, not VW AUDI who alone are in the position to actually know the true extent of the problem but are busy hiding it, and choosing not to issue any recall for a model known to be affected throughout most if not all of the range.  Just being in a position to know how many of this part, which should rarely if ever need replacing, they have sold, should have rung their alarm bells should it not?  It is the known persistence of this fracture failure beyond their own earlier recalls that blows their cover surely?

 

It is because I don't want to 'mess about', and because VW have that I am determined to do their job properly.  The buck always rests with us.

 

Neil

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Did my email answer this?

 

I don't know yet, but will investigate as you suggest tomorrow.  I've gone past my understanding new things hour for today :-)

 

Do you know what A99 in a circle is?   I thought A in a circle might mean positive, but if it is they don't always say.  That circles convention seems poorly explained, at least I don't understand it.

 

Thanks for this,   Neil

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I just want to be clear about something.  I'm not trying to make out that Skoda or VW group cars are rubbish in general.  The Fabia in most respects is a very respectable competent car, and my daughter loves it, or did until now.

 

My brother who's career has been spent as an automotive engineer specialising in programming the 'brains', but aware of wider issues in the industry, informs me that the industry standard aimed for the life of any part is 100,000 miles.  He tells me that everything is 'built down to a price', and that some makes build lower than others!  This we all probably intuitively grasp and accept.  Car manufacturers have always been keen to cut corners wherever they can, hopefully without crossing a line and producing something unfit for purpose or even dangerous, but this will inevitably happen from time to time in this endless search for saving on manufacturing costs. Engineers always want to do a proper job, but the bane of their life is accountants. It is when the safeguards and watchdogs are asleep at the wheel that sub standard stuff can persist beyond its known deficiency.  What is in a way more frightening than that a supposedly respectable quality car manufacturer can produce dangerous brake parts, is that no one, including those specifically tasked in government agencies with ensuring adequate safety standards are adhered to, is taking the necessary responsibility for correcting a major defect like this, allowing it to persist over many years after it has been known about.  This means the system for ensuring our safety is as broken as these dismal pipes, and that therefore we cannot be confident that the vehicles we are driving are as safe as we should be entitled to expect.  That a sprinkling or sample of cars affected ended up being recalled is probably only because third parties took responsibility and reported them, trusting the system would do the right thing and get to the bottom of this and correct it properly.   But this hasn't happened, yet the manufacturer by this time must have been well aware of the extent of the problem.

 

It is the sheer apparent militancy of VW in determining to keep on saving pennies on brake pipes beyond all human decency, while enjoying sales of the replacements at double their original price that I find so shocking.  This is a technology that is unproblematic unless you are on an insane mission to shave pennies off costs of adequate piping beyond what is sustainable, or should be sustainable.  I can't tell you what any brake servo vacuum pipe on any previous car I've ever owned looked like because they never failed and would have been original.  That's on a 19 year old Vauxhall that had done nearly a quarter of a million miles for eg. and the Xantia was getting on that way too.

 

This is for pennies, literally!  So that is the price being put on our lives.

 

Neil

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I don't know yet, but will investigate as you suggest tomorrow.  I've gone past my understanding new things hour for today :-)

 

Do you know what A99 in a circle is?   I thought A in a circle might mean positive, but if it is they don't always say.  That circles convention seems poorly explained, at least I don't understand it.

 

Thanks for this,   Neil

Circled numbers are junctions of more than one wire within a loom.  Scroll a few pages further to the circuit diagram of the fuel pump relay and fuel feed relay (pre-pressurises the fuel rail as you open the driver's door) to see another A99 where this particular 'rail' originates.

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We just use a generic rubber vacuum pipe on a roll to be fair from our local motor factors. Pretty sure it's suitable for quite high pressure too. I will try and find a bit with some details on and get a pic

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I know you don't want to buy an OEM replacement but, as I have previously the latest Skoda version is obviously now well and truly tested and is (re)designed for the job. I would not like to mess around trying to find an alternative, especially when being able to stop the car is paramount.

 

DB

 

NeilTM, I think that you need to take onboard that VW group will have done as mogwye has said above, this happens all the time, ie evolution due to past issues. Department of transport or what ever we call them in UK, will not see this sort of failure as "safety critical" as it just leads to higher brake pedal pressure required - same as when power assist fails in steering both of these systems, braking and steering have to satisfy basic safety requirements and they will have passed these - with assist failure - with flying colours, that does not mean that the first time a newish driver encounters this they will be able to react and continue as before, but that will come with experience - maybe.

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HOSE:

 

Pirtek gave me a sample of thick but nicely flexible reinforced hose with internal weave, (ISO 2398/BS5118/2).  It actually looks just like the pipe fitted to my Fiat Doblo. :-)

 

It is rated at 60 bar pressure which is a lot.  It is a tight fit, but will go on properly, lubricated only with some washing up liquid as recommended by our mechanic, and is a devil to get off again because of the barbs.

 

Atmospheric pressure at sea level is approx one bar, or nearly 15psi or 30 inches of mercury, so the maximum vacuum it could be asked to withstand without collapsing is a 60th of the pressure it is designed to carry, and 15 psi is the theoretical maximum or perfect vacuum which I don't think gets reached.  Idle vacuum is typically two thirds of that, and the overrun somewhere around 24 inches of mercury I think, or approx 12psi.  From experience, that's a fairly spongy wheelbarrow wheel, LOL!

 

It SOUNDS as if this ought to be more than adequate for the job, but does anyone have any informed opinions based on knowledge of such things?  Unfortunately the spec for these pipes I was told does not include any measure of vacuum resistance.  Possibly because the question is redundent and that it would way exceed any pressure our atmosphere could throw at it holding a perfect vacuum.  I may have to contact the manufacturers to settle that Q unless anyone actually knows?

 

It naturally occurs to ask how on earth sufficient vacuum to work the brakes could have been conveyed by a pipe with its ends split beyond the end of the unions it was shrunk over, such that there are permanent unclosable air ways in?  If the pipe were carrying a pressure not a vacuum it would undoubtedly have fallen off under the slightest pressure.  That it didn't anyway must have been down to the 'habit' of the material. Off the car you could rattle the pipes on the union, and shake them off! Although the vacuum is not great in terms of pipe pressure, the vacuum flow is large from the number of cylinder displacements on the induction stroke.  So there is a huge low pressure (or suction rather) flow which would tend towards overwhelming the leaks into it, allowing a leaky pipe to get away with a lot of leakage.  Which could explain why brakes still work seemingly OK or patchily with a pipe like mine.  It can't have been far from every chance of falling off though, and then there would have been zero servo assist.

 

Wino is assisting me offlist with tracing the wiring side of things rather than take up any more bandwidth here, but will make a final report of anything discovered.

 

Cheers, Neil

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That hose sounds ideal to me. Only criteria other than size/fit would be that it's reasonably temperature resistant, and that it doesn't collapse in on itself when there's 1 bar pressure on the outside of it, and much less inside. The 60 bar pressure rating is presumably with the high pressure inside the hose?

I seem to recall that inlet mani pressure at idle is around 300mbar; as reported by the MAP sensor?

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NeilTM, I think that you need to take onboard that VW group will have done as mogwye has said above, this happens all the time, ie evolution due to past issues. Department of transport or what ever we call them in UK, will not see this sort of failure as "safety critical" as it just leads to higher brake pedal pressure required - same as when power assist fails in steering both of these systems, braking and steering have to satisfy basic safety requirements and they will have passed these - with assist failure - with flying colours, that does not mean that the first time a newish driver encounters this they will be able to react and continue as before, but that will come with experience - maybe.

 

I defy anyone to be capable of safely steering and braking a vehicle with total loss of assist except at the slowest speeds, and with ample space.  You don't just end up with the same capability as a car designed without assist!  Nothing like.

 

**IF** evolution due to past issues has taken place and the fault really is cured, then it was culpably slow to get to that point of proper resolution IF indeed it finally has.  This is all speculation unless we actually know, in the context of a massive prior betrayal of trust persisting over many years.  The DVSA clearly did see this as a critical failure since they did issue some recalls on failures that can't have been any worse than the one on our Fabia which was never recalled yet manifested the same failure over several years, and beyond the first recall by at least 2 years.  The assumption that the pipe won't actually fall off is a scarily unsafe assumption. Our pipe was so brittle it has actually lost some bits, not just cracked, so loss of half the pipe breaking out at the union has to be perfecty expectable. And it is not as if pipes adequate for the task and for a long life of the car were not already tried and tested over many decades.  I'm sorry but asking me to accept such an unsafe assumption of no total loss of braking as a standard as you seem prepared to justify simply appals me, and contradicts every stated expectation of safety car manufacturers ever make.  If any of them made a statement like yours above there would be huge justifiable public outcry.  It seems views are entrenched on the matter though, so in the absence of any actual evidence of satisfactory resolution I think I'm being perfectly rational and cautious in withdrawing my betrayed trust.  And all of this is just to save them a few more pennies.

 

The DVSA's declared standards are the same as mine and can be explored from here:

 

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-recalls-and-faults/faults-with-vehicles-parts-and-accessories

 

They just haven't upheld them.  By their criteria we have now suffered 3 notifiable faults in one year on two different vehicles, none of them subject to a recall.

 

Quote from above link:

"4. Faults with vehicles, parts and accessories

Faults in the way vehicles, vehicle parts and accessories are designed or made have to be registered with the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) if they:

  • mean it could become unsafe in the future if it’s not fixed
  • could mean that the vehicle, part or accessory no longer meets the legal standard"

 

But I don't know what there is left to say on this, this side of a further investigation of these matters.

 

Neil

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It seems to me that this vac pipe hasn't changed in any way, between the manufacture of our Fabia's original one on 6th July 2004 and the replacement one on 15th September 2015.

 

Both have the same part number, down to the last letter of the suffix, for a start. 6Q2 612 041 AL.  They're both printed with VW logo, then Spain AY1 TEEE (Thermoplastic Elastomer-Ether-Ester as far as Google suggests), then the part number, then time and date of production, in a repeating sequence along the plastic.  I guess yours is the same in these respects, Neil?  The part number will vary with engine code (and between LHD/RHD obviously), but as far as I can see, AZQ and BME both use the same number (only very minor differences between the engines I believe). 

 

The sole visual difference is that on the newer one the TEEE is written >TEEE<, which seems simply to be a new regulation demanding that the material is identified between such marks. Dunno what the AY1 refers to, possibly a code for the manufacturing facility?

 

I would have thought that if it had been changed, except for perhaps an assembly process change(?) it would have its part number superseded to a new/different suffix.

 

Now I come at this from a different angle, having replaced what I consider a pipe with quite a bit of life left in it (I'd happily swap it back onto the missus's car, though I'd keep an eye on it thereafter), so I'm also intrigued to what is different between the conditions in your engine bay to the ones in ours, to cause such a difference in degradation rate.  

Do the radiator fans work, as far as you know? 

Presumably nothing out of the ordinary on the temperature gauge?  It does say 90 for a fair range of temps, allegedly, though I haven't quantified this myself.

 

Of course it may be a material batch problem, and nothing to do with the conditions it has lived in.

 

Oh, just remembered, two of the four terminations on the original plastic pipe have a little paint mark which might be an inspection process 'signature', each a different colour. Does yours have these marks, at the terminations of the section nearest the servo?

Edited by Wino
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You won't lose steering that's electrohydraulic and totally separate from the brakes. I don't think heat has much to do with the failure of the pipe as it even happens on the diesel ones which have much lower engine bay temps.it's just aging plastic on a poor design really. Had a quick look in our pile of pipe and it's basically airline hose that we use rated for 150psi and 1/2 inch bore. Never had a failure of that since we started replacing the plastic with it.

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An exhaust flexi leak might chuck out hydrocarbon gases which that plastic isn't happy being around, I guess?

 

 

What I'm trying to figure out is "why such drastic variability?".  The old one off ours has three of its four joints looking absolutely immaculate/as new.  Haven't seen Neil's, but it sounds like all four were barely hanging on from the verbal descriptions.

Edited by Wino
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You won't lose steering that's electrohydraulic and totally separate from the brakes. I don't think heat has much to do with the failure of the pipe as it even happens on the diesel ones which have much lower engine bay temps.it's just aging plastic on a poor design really. Had a quick look in our pile of pipe and it's basically airline hose that we use rated for 150psi and 1/2 inch bore. Never had a failure of that since we started replacing the plastic with it.

Great, thanks.  150Lbs per sq in is approx 10 BAR which is one sixth of the pressure rating of the air hose I've been offered.  If yours is OK 'mine' has to be.  It is amply flexible to take care of the bends also, and half inch, the same.

 

Wino has confrmed the likelihood, or at least the distinct possibility of no difference between his 2004 original and the 2015 replacement 11 years later.  It does seem unlikely that a better quality hose would not as he says at least be given a suffix to distinguish it from original, but I suppose the date of manufacture actually does that in the context of the age of the vehicle.  The plastic may be a different compound of course, but I don't suppose they would tell you if you asked since officially there is no problem at all with the fabia, hoho.  They certainly didn't improve it two years after the first recall.  Case closed I think.

 

Will try to get some pics up tomorrow, it sulked when I tried today.  Oh, and yes our pipe is exactly the same number.  Conditions affecting the pipe?  Who knows, surely no components reliably fail at the same time/mileage, or even at all, but Wino's was beginning to fail, and who knows how quickly they go once they start to split.  Different mileages, different part of the country, different types of driving in dfferent weathers.  But none of these factors would be significant given a proper margin of durability.  Engine temp normal.  The pipe at the back of my Doblo looks like new, but then so does everything else back there, I was amazed by how clean the engine compartment was on this now 14yo vehicle with 130,000 miles when I bought it with perfect dealership history, one lady owner in Canterbury.  The Fabia - several owners, a couple of years in Stockport, a couple near Oxford, I forget the rest.  Shouldn't matter.

 

Neil

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My servo pipe is original and still looks perfect.

 

I have wondered why the recalls that have happened were so specific in their date ranges, as if they were simply recalling all cars with the same batch number pipes, but if that were so, those details don't seem to appear on the pipe.  But then there appear to be many failures outside those ranges anyway.  I would like to know the answer, but long may yours continue to remain undamaged, just keep an eye on it anyway!

 

Neil

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