new tax regime panic /diesel car panic, dealers taking advantage?

[harrylime]

The C lass I tried recently drove beautifully. I did not pursue it because the salesman (mercedes Doncaster) was so rude, unpleasant and clearly mysoginistic I cut short the test drive and would have nothing to do with that dealership again

 

[Tilt]

On ‎03‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 20:31, harrylime said:

 I'd prefer to pay an extra 3K or so for an Audi A4 Avant. The margin is not enough to do otherwise, as the nearly new Octys seem well overpriced in my opinion. The Octy is a good car ( I have a Mk 2), but Audis are quiter, more refined etc. It also occurred to me that the MK 3 will depreciate more rapidly than the facelifted model.

 

 

And both will depreciate faster than the Audi, Harry.

 

If looked after, you will likely make the difference back when you sell it.

[vRSAnt]

On 04/03/2017 at 12:05, harrylime said:

I'm not worried about the diesel BS at all, to be honest, I want a petrol because of likely DPF issues, as I do low annual mileage and predominantly short trips. I was commenting on the seeming rush for petrol run out model Octavias, resulting in a shortage, and pushing up prices. This has made it impossible for me to get a decent deal on a 1.4 Sport. My car's not worth a lot so I may keep it for a while, or look elsewhere. The other reason I don't want a diesel is that it's not an issue of whether the  City Congestion / Emissions/ Resident Parking charges will affect me, it's whether they affect many buyers in a few years time. I can see these knee jerk Government and local authority measure causing the value of diesel cars to plummet, as if depreciation isn't bad enough already. I don't want to invest in a diesel car because all the signs are there

It may, in the near future, become possible to take my 4 litre V8 Lexus into city centres, but not my 1.9 litre Octavia. Ridiculous

 

Why? Maybe not so ricidiculous and maybe not BS. That's not to say petrol has its own issues too and may need to be replaced too, but diesel really has clear problems right now and little future.

 

http://www.air-quality.org.uk/26.php

"Emissions from Diesel Vehicles

Diesel fuel contains more energy per litre than petrol and coupled with the fact that diesel engines are more efficient than petrol engines, diesel cars are more efficient to run. Diesel fuel contains no lead and emissions of the regulated pollutants (carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides) are lower than those from petrol cars without a catalyst. However, when compared to petrol cars with a catalyst, diesels have higher emissions of NOx and much higher emissions of particulate matter."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/nov/10/pollutionwatch-petrol-diesel-climate-change

http://www.caslab.com/Petroleum-Hydrocarbon-Ranges/

Petrol is in the lighter range of fractions. Diesel is far more complex so whilst it releases more potential energy ( like burning coal rather than burning a lighter fuel like methane ) it obviously means more complexities in regard to by-products, they tried to solve this using DPF's but obviously even that doesn't really work.

 

The nail in the diesel coffin was when this was released:

https://www.iarc.fr/en/media-centre/pr/2012/pdfs/pr213_E.pdf

"IARC: DIESEL ENGINE EXHAUST CARCINOGENIC Lyon,  France,  June  12,  2012

After  a  week long  meeting  of  international  experts,  the  International
Agency  for  Research  on  Cancer  (IA RC), which  is part  of  the  World  Health  Organization (WHO),  today classified  diesel  engine  exhaust  as carcinogenic  to  humans  (Group  1),  based  on  sufficient  evidence  that exposure is associated with an increased risk for
lung cancer."

 

The real irony is those going for the quick fix with their DPF's are just further hastening the coffin into the ground for diesel

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/apr/17/diesel-particulate-filter-removal-air-pollution-department-for-transport

 

Its not looking good for diesel, based is scientific research not just knee jerk hot air. Of course feel free to build your own planet/island with own rules where diesel will reign long after its been banned elsewhere

 

[M12MKD]

On Sat Mar 04 2017 at 16:54, glosrich said:

 

Spec is ok, electric everything, climate, cruise, Merc fake leather, Garmin sat nav is an add on module for £250.

Alright they don't have as much boot space or back seat space, but they are more desirable.

2.0 petrol turbo 7 speed auto, 187ps, 140mph 7 secs to 60, almost as fast as a Vrs

 

The Merc is by a large margin a better place to be sat in. I personally love the w205 interior! Albeit it the stupid looking ipad stuck on screen.

[M12MKD]

10 hours ago, harrylime said:

The C lass I tried recently drove beautifully. I did not pursue it because the salesman (mercedes Doncaster) was so rude, unpleasant and clearly mysoginistic I cut short the test drive and would have nothing to do with that dealership again

 

I also had this issue at a few Mercedes-Benz dealers, came to the conclusion my appearance did not suit the MB clientele 

[harrylime]

8 hours ago, vRSAnt said:

 

Why? Maybe not so ricidiculous and maybe not BS. That's not to say petrol has its own issues too and may need to be replaced too, but diesel really has clear problems right now and little future.

 

http://www.air-quality.org.uk/26.php

"Emissions from Diesel Vehicles

Diesel fuel contains more energy per litre than petrol and coupled with the fact that diesel engines are more efficient than petrol engines, diesel cars are more efficient to run. Diesel fuel contains no lead and emissions of the regulated pollutants (carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides) are lower than those from petrol cars without a catalyst. However, when compared to petrol cars with a catalyst, diesels have higher emissions of NOx and much higher emissions of particulate matter."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/nov/10/pollutionwatch-petrol-diesel-climate-change

http://www.caslab.com/Petroleum-Hydrocarbon-Ranges/

Petrol is in the lighter range of fractions. Diesel is far more complex so whilst it releases more potential energy ( like burning coal rather than burning a lighter fuel like methane ) it obviously means more complexities in regard to by-products, they tried to solve this using DPF's but obviously even that doesn't really work.

 

The nail in the diesel coffin was when this was released:

https://www.iarc.fr/en/media-centre/pr/2012/pdfs/pr213_E.pdf

"IARC: DIESEL ENGINE EXHAUST CARCINOGENIC Lyon,  France,  June  12,  2012

After  a  week long  meeting  of  international  experts,  the  International
Agency  for  Research  on  Cancer  (IA RC), which  is part  of  the  World  Health  Organization (WHO),  today classified  diesel  engine  exhaust  as carcinogenic  to  humans  (Group  1),  based  on  sufficient  evidence  that exposure is associated with an increased risk for
lung cancer."

 

The real irony is those going for the quick fix with their DPF's are just further hastening the coffin into the ground for diesel

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/apr/17/diesel-particulate-filter-removal-air-pollution-department-for-transport

 

Its not looking good for diesel, based is scientific research not just knee jerk hot air. Of course feel free to build your own planet/island with own rules where diesel will reign long after its been banned elsewhere

 

You seem to have gone to a lot of trouble and keyboard research to prove a point, but have missed my point completely. Petrol and diesel have been in use for many years. The physical properties of petrol and diesel, and their emissions are well known and have not changed. It is not rocket science, and neither is air quality testing. It is bull**** because politicians deliberately sent us down the road of buying diesel cars by taxing them very favourably, supposedly for environmental reasons. Now we are told that diesel emissions are suddenly killing us all and must be taxed or banned out of existence, instantly wipoing thousands off the second most expensive purchase most of us will make? If that's not bull**** I don't know what is.

[SWBoy]

Just now, harrylime said:

Petrol and diesel have been in use for many years. The physical properties of petrol and diesel, and their emissions are well known and have not changed. It is not rocket science, and neither is air quality testing.

But what has changed is that medical research, including but not limited to that quoted by vRSAnt, has proven a much greater risk of cancer from particulates than previously thought.

 

IMHO it's much the same as the way we drove cars for decades using leaded petrol until medical research proved a much greater risk than previously thought from the (unnecessary) lead content. Then we did the right thing and removed lead from petrol.

 

Scientific knowledge is continuously improving, and we can either bury our heads in the sand and ignore the risks we now know exist, or change our behaviour to minimise/reduce the risks.I know which of those options I prefer

[vRSAnt]

You could always remember that voting time, I wasn't even in the Tony lover demographic ("things will only get better") that voted for the illegal middle east wars looking for fabricated WMD's / gold bar sell off / banking crisis.

 

So imagine how much more ****ed off people like me feel about it all !

( seeing as its got political)

 

Its also hardly anything new, its many years old and people have had chance ( prior to vw diesel gate ) to use their noggins to opt to what to do. That is unfortunately life and we don't all have crystal balls but you can choose where to lay your eggs.

 

I do imagine it highly likely the government may introduce some compensation in way of scrappage scheme, so there is always that. That will get the older diesels off the road at least ( maybe like my Fabia 1 - though I will miss it )

Edited 6 March, 2017 by vRSAnt

[harrylime]

I agree there will probably be a scrappage scheme at some point, although it is not exactly environmentally friendly to destroy perfectly serviceable cars that will need to be replaced by new cars, which will use a lot of raw materials, burn energy in their manufacture and transportation etc and create more waste for landfill. I remember seeing cars at my local dealer that were destined for the scrapyard under the scrappage scheme. Many, although not all, were in mint condition, literally as new. It offended my frugal nature and just seemed like such a waste. If we ran our households like this we would all be living in penury. Come to think of it, the country is in penury because we are run by idiots. Nothing changes because Woody Guthrie claimed in a song in the 1930s that his wife's stew was " so thin some of these here politicians could have see'd through it". Politicians  must have been equally astute in those days

[Geek42]

The rights and wrongs of the political response to some recent and not so recent medical advice can be debated all day, but in terms of desirability the VAG 1.4TSi looks phenomenal right now. I come from a position of having moved to the 1.4TSi from a diesel car (my one and only diesel), and can make the following observations:

1) Despite huge improvements in diesel refinement, it is still not quite as smooth/quiet as petrol, low speeds and SS showing up the remaining difference clearly.

2) We all know that claimed mpg is junk for ALL vehicles, but the higher the number the bigger the probability of a lie (hence the golf GTE only getting 30% of the claimed number in the real world). This means the difference isn't necessarily as big as you'd think.

3) I worked out that over 5-6 years a 2.0TDi would be about 2k cheaper in total, but over such a long time with total outlay of ~30k (for ALL costs) I consider this difference almost insignificant, especially when I like the 1.4TSi so much.

4) Three years ago there was very little competition. Some other manufacturers have reasonable light pressure turbo petrols now, so there would be a bit of choice, but this particular engine is a peach. Some manufacturers still have nothing to compete with it if you absolutely don't want diesel. Gutless low torque mid-range is consigned to history as far as I'm concerned.

5) As a chronic asthmatic I maybe pay more attention to air related health stories, and the diesel/asthma link was being discussed (although in a much more low key way) long before I bought my Octy, over 3 years ago. Although I am waiting for the petrol/asthma related stories in about 18 months, after they've destroyed the diesel market! 

 

I have a Skoda with this engine, as does my brother-in-law. One sister has a Seat, one a VW and my mum has an Audi. All with the 1.4TSi. We all like totally different things in a car, and yet we all went for the same engine. It's popular because it's good and yet most of the young used versions will be from fleet where it will take longer to overcome the diesel bias, so there's a supply/demand imbalance, at least on the nearly new market.

 

Where's the conspiracy?

 

 

 

 

[Wet Kipper]

22 hours ago, vRSAnt said:

 

To buy a diesel car new now though, IMO you'd have to be be a bloody fool.

 

So if someone was considering an Octavia Scout, what petrol powered alternative "off road capable" 4x4 estate of a similar size and price would you recommend ?

 

[TDIum]

Bloody fool or not I would weigh up the options and decide to buy petrol/diesel according to my needs, desires and prejudices and the prevailing economic, social and other factors, and the potential for these to change in the coming years. I would pay less regard to the words of a self-interested politician or some loudmouth on the internet.

[vRSAnt]

@wet kipper, Ha - I would not, you confused me with a skoda salesperson or suchlike  

 

@TDIum "bloody fool" (apparently) meets "loud mouth on internet", and they both part with difference of opinions  Fair enough. At least you are already thinking about the impact. Whether this is part delivered or discussed with loud mouth on internet makes no bloody difference in the greater scheme of things I agree. But impact on you with a TDI I'm sure it eventually will.

 

@harryline Yes but it could help promote industry and won't have the localise impact of pollution like vehicles have directly on towns etc and air quality.

- Blame the lack of planning when promoting diesels excessively originally.

 

This has gone so far beyond a "point" now that people just need to get with the programme, anticipate the changes, and stop the moaning and complaining. You had the same when smoking was banned from places but now look.

You'd look pretty stupid and out of place smoking in public now and complaining about your rights and freedoms etc....

 

[themanwithnoaim]

The 1.4 TSI is a good engine, it can deliver mid 40's into low 50's average mpg, it can also be tuned through 200bhp and 310 Nm BUT, it won't do both.

 

I think they'll be better petrol engines in the near future but right now, its pretty damn good.