Dpf...is it game over in limp mode ?

[studmuffin]

I think my dpf is on its last legs as my vrs is trying to regen most of the time now as it ticks over at 1000rpm....

 

I suppose I can't Complain as the dpf has done 170k with not much trouble other than the usual stop start traffic and I always manage to get dpf light off if it comes on....

 

My question is, if it goes into limp mode,  can you still gut the dpf or is it tottaly unuseable and you you have to buy a new dpf ? Or is it a good idea to have it done before it goes into limp mode ? 

 

Thanks.

Edited 20 June, 2017 by studmuffin

[chimaera]

If by gut you mean remove the internals, then that's always possible. If you do that you will need a remap to stop the ECU complaining. You may also not be able to pass an MOT in the future, as this is something that's starting to be checked for.

 

If it hasn't come on already, you can expect to see the DPF warning light come on when it can't regen sufficiently. If a long drive doesn't clear it, you will probably need to get it replaced.

 

If you know someone who has VCDS, get them to scan for fault codes, and to check the measuring blocks for DPF soot and ash loading. This will give you a better idea of what's actually going on rather than guessing.

[Gissin]

put in some decent fuel (if you don't already) get some DPF cleaner and then take it for a long spirited drive 30 miles all at over 2k rpm probably 70 in 5th

 

if not you can take it to a garage for a DPF deep clean(a direct flush into the DPF followed by a diagnostic regeneration of the DPF to reset the engine management system) normally £70-90 ish  

 

as said above, yes you can take the DPF internals out but then you need a remap (£300-400) and you might not pass an MOT in the future as they are cracking down on DPF removals and then still have to buy a new DPF

 

 

[Ju1ian1001]

20 hours ago, chimaera said:

If by gut you mean remove the internals, then that's always possible. If you do that you will need a remap to stop the ECU complaining. You may also not be able to pass an MOT in the future, as this is something that's starting to be checked for.

 

If it hasn't come on already, you can expect to see the DPF warning light come on when it can't regen sufficiently. If a long drive doesn't clear it, you will probably need to get it replaced.

 

If you know someone who has VCDS, get them to scan for fault codes, and to check the measuring blocks for DPF soot and ash loading. This will give you a better idea of what's actually going on rather than guessing.

 

12 hours ago, Gissin said:

put in some decent fuel (if you don't already) get some DPF cleaner and then take it for a long spirited drive 30 miles all at over 2k rpm probably 70 in 5th

 

if not you can take it to a garage for a DPF deep clean(a direct flush into the DPF followed by a diagnostic regeneration of the DPF to reset the engine management system) normally £70-90 ish  

 

as said above, yes you can take the DPF internals out but then you need a remap (£300-400) and you might not pass an MOT in the future as they are cracking down on DPF removals and then still have to buy a new DPF

 

 

The only thing us tester's check for is that a DPF is fitted,if the external shell is left but there is no internals then we have to pass it, it's just a visual check. Most VAG group vehicles with DPF won't rev beyond 2500 rpm so don't trigger the valves on our smoke testing machines so again they have to be passed as the are deemed to clean. All waht i have wrote is in the tester's manual which can be read online.

 

The same with catalytic converter on a petrol, if the shell is left we have to pass, but then it must get through the emmisions test.

[studmuffin]

Thanks for the advice, not quite sure what to do now, to clean the dpf is just slightly cheaper to do, had quote around £300ish to clean and £380 to gut and remap, only planning on keeping the car for another 3 years max, which is about another 60k in mileage...

 

The new not rules are a bit of a worry though if I decide to gut and remap

Edited 21 June, 2017 by studmuffin

[Ju1ian1001]

2 hours ago, studmuffin said:

Thanks for the advice, not quite sure what to do now, to clean the dpf is just slightly cheaper to do, had quote around £300ish to clean and £380 to gut and remap, only planning on keeping the car for another 3 years max, which is about another 60k in mileage...

 

The new not rules are a bit of a worry though if I decide to gut and remap

As said it's just a visual check for presence of the DPF being there, if the outer shell is there with the sensor's connected it WILL pass an MOT, it get it day in day out as i carry out MOT's for a living; the rules are simple really and have been around for the last couple of years so are not new.

 

If an Engine Management Light is on the vehicle will PASS the MOT, all us testers can do is advise it.

[Gissin]

Department for Transport (DfT) said: “Alternative methods of detecting the presence of particulate filters are under development and we are examining their suitability for use in an MOT.  As part of the Roadworthiness Directive, from May 2017 all vehicles with a DPF fitted will have these inspected at MOT. This will be tested by advanced technology, that can detect the Removal of the DPF along with Emissions testing.

 

I know they were in talks about back pressure tests to look for the absence of a DPF, also the local MOT tester (my next door neighbour) has been advised they are now being told to look for weld marks on the DPF as a visual clue.

 

The question you really have to ask yourself:

£380 for DPF removal and remap

£1,000 fine if caught with DPF removed

Costs to replace the DPF anyway

 

 

personally I wouldn't risk it, I would try the cleaner and spirited drive

followed by a DPF deep clean - find a garage that offers it (cheaper than a new DPF)

worst case have the DPF replaced

[silver1011]

Weld marks on the DPF isn't a sure sign the DPF isn't working so it can't be failed.

 

It is in the DfT's interests to discourage DPF removal hence the scaremongering about future changes to the MOT test. Any equipment required to accurately detect an absent DPF across a multitude of different DPF designs would be an expensive bit of kit and is therefore unlikely to make its way into all MOT test stations anytime soon.

 

And definitely not in the lifetime of any remaining PD170 vRS's out there.

[silver1011]

22 hours ago, studmuffin said:

Thanks for the advice, not quite sure what to do now, to clean the dpf is just slightly cheaper to do, had quote around £300ish to clean and £380 to gut and remap, only planning on keeping the car for another 3 years max, which is about another 60k in mileage...

 

The new not rules are a bit of a worry though if I decide to gut and remap

 

Now the car is in limp-home mode you (or the car) can't regen the DPF itself. You'll need a diagnostic induced 'forced regen'.

 

Be careful, a DPF 'clean', even a proper one is a short term fix. Cleaning the DPF damages it and reduces its effectiveness. It is likely you'll be in the same position in the not too distant future.

 

An extra £80 for a permanent resolution is what I'd be going for.

 

As mentioned you should bear in mind potential MOT issues (highly unlikely) and of course insurance complications.

 

A DPF'less PD170 vRS will feel like a new car. Do it and enjoy a smoother, freer engine together with improved fuel economy and no more high RPM idles.

[chimaera]

OBD and EOBD standards specify a readiness test which can only be set by actively polling all components related to emissions control to check that they are functioning normally. It wouldn't be hard to add an EOBD check to the MOT to look for readiness. If the DPF has been mapped out it won't be able to set readiness and fail. I imagine this is the option being considered by testing bodies to tighten up on emissions equipment being removed.

[silver1011]

In isolation probably not, across all vehicle manufacturers we won't see it for a long time yet.

 

As with everything a work around will arrive at the same, as part of the map modifications needed when removing the DPF then no doubt a fix will be created to fool the readiness check at the same time.

[Ju1ian1001]

5 minutes ago, chimaera said:

OBD and EOBD standards specify a readiness test which can only be set by actively polling all components related to emissions control to check that they are functioning normally. It wouldn't be hard to add an EOBD check to the MOT to look for readiness. If the DPF has been mapped out it won't be able to set readiness and fail. I imagine this is the option being considered by testing bodies to tighten up on emissions equipment being removed.

Not as easy as it reads, it would mean writing a new set of instructions into the testers manual, then telling all the diagnostics comapanys to pet exactly the same set program into there machines for us testers to use (All the gas analyser and smoke test program are a set routine written be the DVSA. Then this would have to put through goverment and added to the statute book to be made law. The all cost alot of money, so i wouldn't think this will be in any time soon, as a tester i know it won't.

 

[chimaera]

Just now, Ju1ian1001 said:

Not as easy as it reads, it would mean writing a new set of instructions into the testers manual, then telling all the diagnostics comapanys to pet exactly the same set program into there machines for us testers to use (All the gas analyser and smoke test program are a set routine written be the DVSA. Then this would have to put through goverment and added to the statute book to be made law. The all cost alot of money, so i wouldn't think this will be in any time soon, as a tester i know it won't.

 

EOBD is a standard that's been around for a long time - any code reader or diagnostic platform available must support it no matter what.

[Ju1ian1001]

Just now, chimaera said:

EOBD is a standard that's been around for a long time - any code reader or diagnostic platform available must support it no matter what.

i know that, but the test program would have to be standardised, so any tester could go to any test station and carry out the test, as it is all diag machines work differently to do the same job.

 

As i siad in my previous post the gas analyser and smoke test machines work exactly the same no matter who made them.

[silver1011]

The changes will come, but not in our lifetimes.

 

By which time the combustion engine will only be found in museums 

[willy0329]

People have been scare mongering about dpf rule changes at mot time for years on here and still its only a visual check for my pd170.

They won't be able to make a euro 4 engine have the same tests as a euro 6 engine it wouldn't be possible due to the difference in emissions. 

It would be phased in with new cars having more stringent dpf checks not older cars. 

[MjClanger]

Hi guys newbie to the forums but I'm at my wits end with my Occy VRS TDI Mk2. DSG 59 plate.

 It's been going into limp mode for the past 3weeks. A mate hooked it up to his VCDS but it showed nothing of interest. The soot content was low but gave it a good run to regenerate the DPF but no joy.  At a guess we changed the DPFpressure sensor and gave it a Terraclean™ but to no avail. It still goes into limp mode with flashing glow plug when asked to overtake at 60+mph. I turn the engine off restart but it's getting worse.

 Incidentally I filled up with fuel and when opening the cap I was hit with the overpowering smell of ammonia!.....has my car been tampered with?...is it the end of the engine?....can anyone kindly help and advise?!! 

 

[Gissin]

38 minutes ago, MjClanger said:

Hi guys newbie to the forums but I'm at my wits end with my Occy VRS TDI Mk2. DSG 59 plate.

 It's been going into limp mode for the past 3weeks. A mate hooked it up to his VCDS but it showed nothing of interest. The soot content was low but gave it a good run to regenerate the DPF but no joy.  At a guess we changed the DPFpressure sensor and gave it a Terraclean™ but to no avail. It still goes into limp mode with flashing glow plug when asked to overtake at 60+mph. I turn the engine off restart but it's getting worse.

 Incidentally I filled up with fuel and when opening the cap I was hit with the overpowering smell of ammonia!.....has my car been tampered with?...is it the end of the engine?....can anyone kindly help and advise?!! 

 

if you have flashing glow plugs... might be a thought to change them

[MjClanger]

9 minutes ago, Gissin said:

if you have flashing glow plugs... might be a thought to change them

Would this cause the car to go into limp mode when asking for more power when overtaking or going up hill?....it starts first time but it is sluggish ...no where near 170bhp and seems starved of any turbo. 

Its going to Skoda for a diagnostic check with their techies....and their VCDS....and their prices! God help me!!!.....Or Briskodians!!! 

[Anddenton]

You need the codes read with VCDS, sounds more like a turbo issue to me, probably an over boost fault due to gummed up vanes, common fault, you could try searching and carrying out the Mr muscle treatment.

[Gissin]

1 hour ago, MjClanger said:

Would this cause the car to go into limp mode when asking for more power when overtaking or going up hill?....it starts first time but it is sluggish ...no where near 170bhp and seems starved of any turbo. 

Its going to Skoda for a diagnostic check with their techies....and their VCDS....and their prices! God help me!!!.....Or Briskodians!!! 

No it shouldn't, but might be a bit rough starting and warm up  but a faulty cts can also cause a glow plug code which then in turn causes rough running on start up.

Just thought if you have a issue and glow plugs flashing worth getting them changed as it's not helping. 

Sounds more like sticky vanes as mentioned above. 

[FatblokeVRS]

Did ours when it was choked up. Been ok since.

 

http://www.dpfdeepclean.co.uk

 

[MjClanger]

1 hour ago, FatblokeVRS said:

Did ours when it was choked up. Been ok since.

 

http://www.dpfdeepclean.co.uk

 

Thanks chap, I may take a look at that however the soot reading was 4% on the vcds which was well within limits apparently. I'm really not sure what else I can try. The smell of ammonia coming from the fuel tank has freaked me out a bit....I'll be breaking kneecaps if I find out someone's tampered with it.   ....I'm missing my VRS real bad. 

[Gissin]

11 hours ago, MjClanger said:

Thanks chap, I may take a look at that however the soot reading was 4% on the vcds which was well within limits apparently. I'm really not sure what else I can try. The smell of ammonia coming from the fuel tank has freaked me out a bit....I'll be breaking kneecaps if I find out someone's tampered with it.   ....I'm missing my VRS real bad. 

if you're car isn't sat at 1000 rpm+ at idle all the time, if the reading is 4% on the DPF and if you only get limp mode when booting it .. it's 99% sticky vanes on your turbo.

 

mr muscle it, as mentioned by @Anddenton  however I would start getting ready for a refurb on your turbo or replacement soon-ish as the mr muscle is only temp ( although I have seen it bring 3 +years of life back into my mates turbo)  

 

 

edit: and this is my 400th post

Edited 24 October, 2017 by Gissin

[MjClanger]

5 hours ago, Gissin said:

if you're car isn't sat at 1000 rpm+ at idle all the time, if the reading is 4% on the DPF and if you only get limp mode when booting it .. it's 99% sticky vanes on your turbo.

 

mr muscle it, as mentioned by @Anddenton  however I would start getting ready for a refurb on your turbo or replacement soon-ish as the mr muscle is only temp ( although I have seen it bring 3 +years of life back into my mates turbo)  

 

 

edit: and this is my 400th post

Thanks for the heads up. It does look like it's pointing towards a turbo issue, I hoped the Terraclean would have sorted it out but it obviously hasn't.

Do I just go for it and replace the turbo or wait until the skoda techs tell me to? Decision decisions!! 

I'm like a Pelican at the moment I'm walking around with an enormous bill in front of me!! 

 

P.s Congrats on your 400th post....that's dedication to the cause!