NOISE

[Rooted]

'British Law'.  or EU / UK Legislation ?

 

as to British Law, there are English & Welsh Civil Courts, and Scottish Courts / law, & Northern Ireland, and when you take the VW Group to Court they do not want to defend their actions or behaviours.  

Impossible for them to do so really in almost all cases, that would require them to put forward their defence and witnesses and give figures and information on just what failures there have been, warranty field actions etc.

 

Play VW Group at their own game, raise a legal action using 'British Law',  or is that English / Welsh law.  

As to Scottish Law, that does have them 'touch cloth',   Nothing frightens like a court ruling against them.

Edited 31 January, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[andyvee]

8 hours ago, GTD184 said:

 

I have known cars being rejected some 18 months on due to delays with the legal process, so it is possible.

 

The bottom line is the car should not exhibit the noise, it does which in turn brings in to question the implied term "satisfactory quality".

• The independent engineer confirms the noise is unacceptable and will become progressively worse with use.
• Other owners worldwide are complaining about the same or similar Drivetrain issues.
• The manufacturer has declined to provide reasons for the noise or why the noise occurs and from what component
• Evidence from an engineer who has worked on DSG tranmissions commented of this so called noise "characteristic" - ;

  "I have seen a number of instances of bearings wearing down, however. This typically results in a metallic noise when driving. I have known DSG transmissions with this symptom to be driven for quite some time with no ill-effects other than quite irritating driving noise, however I most definitely wouldn’t recommend you leave this problem unattended. If the mechanical components of the DSG did fail, it would be pretty catastrophic for the transmission."

The latter statement is worth noting as it appears that VW know that the noise problem is and appears as described. They are making a commercial decisions to reduce costs (which is expected in light of the scandals VW are facing) hoping the transmission fails outside of warranty. 

 

With regards to your comment regarding the Ombudsman confirming that the noise is not grounds for rejection. This is incorrect. A noise can be grounds for rejection on the basis that the noise source can be confirmed as a defect. Unfortunately in this case the only way of identifying the causation of the noise is to disassemble the suspect components which can only be undertaken by the dealer due to the constraints imposed by the manufacturers warranty. It is a get out jail free card for both dealer and manufacturer which I intend to exploit by any means available to me to address this injustice. 

 

Thanks for your best wishes

 

You are going round in circles now and contradicting yourself.

 

You yourself came up with the Ombudsman quote, not me. If the noise source is confirmed as a defect then you are not rejecting on the grounds of a noise, you are rejecting on the grounds of a defect. At this point in time you do not have a defect, you have a noise, which in your opinion is a defect, and in your experts opinion unacceptable, and in the manufacturers opinion a characteristic.

 

On 1/24/2018 at 15:20, GTD184 said:

The motor Ombudsman stated "a noise emanating from any component on a car is not indicative of a breach of contract regarding the quality of the goods".............In the absence of definitive evidence i.e. a complete disassembly and confirmed causation of the noise there is no reliable evidence to state that the vehicle breaches contract as identified in sections 9-11 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 which defines those implied terms of quality.

 

Other owners complaining worlwide about the noise lends more weight to the argument that it is a 'characteristic', unless of course all of their gearboxes have failed? These are the stats you need - how many failures due to bearing issues in early life?

 

The manufacturer has provided a reason, it is a characteristic. It is just that you don't want to accept this as you have had a previous DSG gearbox of a different generation fail for a completely different reason.

 

The comment taken from the engineers website is out of context as well as that relates to bearing wear on DQ250 boxes. At no point does he mention defects in manufacture, just wear. Has John Bullock replied privately to either of your almost identical posts on his website confirming your gearbox is defective? If so, that is the kind of expert you want on your side. You can't use DQ200 issues either as they are a completely different gearbox.

 

As I have said, I wish you all the best with this but you are very brave to be taking VW to court on the grounds of a perceived future failure due to a noise.

 

As you stated earlier, you are willing to bet money on it being the gearbox, so put your money where your mouth is and pay for the gearbox to be dissasembled with your expert present to prove your case. You will be able to recover your costs and reject the vehicle. Win Win!

On 1/12/2018 at 10:20, GTD184 said:

My opinion is the noise is definitely related to the gearbox.....and I would bet money on it!

 

[GTD184]

13 hours ago, andyvee said:

You are going round in circles now and contradicting yourself.

 

Not at all......just stating facts! However, I would suggest you read through your own comments to determine who is contradicting who!......you are trying to make something out of nothing by constantly perusing my comments in order to criticise rather than add constructive advice!

 

13 hours ago, andyvee said:

You yourself came up with the Ombudsman quote, not me. If the noise source is confirmed as a defect then you are not rejecting on the grounds of a noise, you are rejecting on the grounds of a defect. At this point in time you do not have a defect, you have a noise, which in your opinion is a defect, and in your experts opinion unacceptable, and in the manufacturers opinion a characteristic.

 

The fact is the noise should not be present!....and yes if it makes any difference if the noise source is confirmed as a defect then I will reject on the grounds of a defect!........the noise in this particular case is indicative that there is either a manufacturing defect or design issue which only a complete strip down will clarify. Alternatively, the manufacturer declares data relating to known issues or prognosis. Contrary to your comment the noise as previously mentioned is indicative of an underlying defect of which defect is yet to be confirmed.

 

To put it into another context, if a relatively new car has a front end ancillary rattle and you determine the component responsible to be the water pump, would it be confirmed as a defect because it is making a noise (although it operates as per engineering standard) or a characteristic of wear and tear?........or the same car with a turbo whine which although is a noise nuisance the engine is showing no immediate signs of any failure.

 

13 hours ago, andyvee said:

Other owners complaining worlwide about the noise lends more weight to the argument that it is a 'characteristic', unless of course all of their gearboxes have failed? These are the stats you need - how many failures due to bearing issues in early life?

 

Why do you think manufacturer recalls occur?.......simply due to recorded failures out in the field.

 

WIth serial manufacturing issues and failures it is expected and a requirement that many customers will report their concerns and that they will be recorded by the dealer network for statistical analysis. In 2013 1.6 million DSG gearboxes were recalled worldwide due to manufacturing and design issues....were all those units displaying normal "characteristics"

 

13 hours ago, andyvee said:

The manufacturer has provided a reason, it is a characteristic. It is just that you don't want to accept this as you have had a previous DSG gearbox of a different generation fail for a completely different reason.

 

The manufacturer if anything has declined to confirm the reasons why the Drivetrain makes the noise, which component is responsible and why! They have merely compared another like for like vehicle which is not reliable if a serial defect is evident on this type of gearbox ..... you in your own words stated that there should be no noise from the transmission so who is being contradictory?!

 

13 hours ago, andyvee said:

The comment taken from the engineers website is out of context as well as that relates to bearing wear on DQ250 boxes. At no point does he mention defects in manufacture, just wear. Has John Bullock replied privately to either of your almost identical posts on his website confirming your gearbox is defective? If so, that is the kind of expert you want on your side. You can't use DQ200 issues either as they are a completely different gearbox.

 

They are different generations of DSG gearboxes but they work on the same design and engineering principles. The DQ500 was designed for high torque applications and as such has strengthened components an extra gear and updated mechatronics. The DQ500 is essentially an uprated DQ250 so nothing remarkably different.

 

13 hours ago, andyvee said:

As I have said, I wish you all the best with this but you are very brave to be taking VW to court on the grounds of a perceived future failure due to a noise.

 

As you stated earlier, you are willing to bet money on it being the gearbox, so put your money where your mouth is and pay for the gearbox to be dissasembled with your expert present to prove your case. You will be able to recover your costs and reject the vehicle. Win Win!

 

 

There is no question about "perceived" future failure due to a noise. From an engineering perspective a noise emanating from a mechanical/rotational assembly is a true indicator of a defect or pending component failure. 

 

Your idea to instruct an independent engineer to disassemble the gearbox is not remotely feasible due to costs and the fact that even if a defect was discovered VW would not accept the car due to voiding the manufacturers warranty!

 

I have said my piece I will now await the legal outcome. 

[Rooted]

Please get it correct.  Stop the Internet Myth continuation.

 

The DQ200 World Wide Recall was not WORLD WIDE,  VW Group were forced into it,  threat of courts / authorities, China, USA, Australia.

Hence they reacted, they extended warranties etc.

In New Zealand a proper 'Service Campaign'  Recall Actions.

http://skoda.co.nz/news/dsg-service-campaign 

 

No European Recall, just eventually a Service Campaign. Late 2013, 2014 for Skoda UK.

Not all vehicles are even done, not done yet.

Volkswagen Passenger Cars Malaysia meets with customers, announces additional two-year DSG warranty - #MTHRFKNWIN.mhtml

Volkswagen ‘DSG issue’ is over, transformation of aftersales services underway _ Motor Trader Car News.mhtml

Edited 1 February, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[Yogi-Bear]

36 minutes ago, GTD184 said:

From an engineering perspective a noise emanating from a mechanical/rotational assembly is a true indicator of a defect or pending component failure

 

You what now?

 

If you apply that logic, then just about every mechanical bit of a car has a defect or is about to fail.

[GTD184]

1 hour ago, AwaoffSki said:

Please get it correct.  Stop the Internet Myth continuation.

 

The DQ200 World Wide Recall was not WORLD WIDE,  VW Group were forced into it,  threat of courts / authorities, China, USA, Australia.

Hence they reacted, they extended warranties etc.

In New Zealand a proper 'Service Campaign'  Recall Actions.

http://skoda.co.nz/news/dsg-service-campaign 

 

No European Recall, just eventually a Service Campaign. Late 2013, 2014 for Skoda UK.

Not all vehicles are even done, not done yet.

Volkswagen Passenger Cars Malaysia meets with customers, announces additional two-year DSG warranty - #MTHRFKNWIN.mhtml

Volkswagen ‘DSG issue’ is over, transformation of aftersales services underway _ Motor Trader Car News.mhtml

 

Its no myth......simply customer complaints of a poor transmission in which VW eventually accepted their moral responsibilities and offered a repair!.........I suppose your going top comment next that the emissions scandal is all a myth too?!

[GTD184]

1 hour ago, WiggosSideburns said:

 

You what now?

 

If you apply that logic, then just about every mechanical bit of a car has a defect or is about to fail.

 

I stand corrected!............"a uncharacteristic noise emanating from a mechanical/rotational assembly is a true indicator of a defect or pending component failure"

[Rooted]

GTD184,  The myth i am talking about is that they listen and then do the right thing,

they were forced kicking and screaming and messing about and denying everything as usual. 

 They admit nothing until found out, then even then just as much as they need to until found out some more.

 

'Offered a repair',   World Wide Recall!

No they did a Preventative Measure in Europe eventually, and where there have been failures Owners needed to fight to get repairs, 

new MCU's, Clutch Packs and even DSG's.

Denial being Skoda UK's response when Alasdair Stewart was the Skoda UK Brand Director, until you got to the Senior Management often, 

or Solicitors letters got to Skoda / VW.   No better now with the new Brand Director of Skoda UK.

But they will not go to court when it comes down to that, because they can not defend their product or behaviour.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/294051-cave-cthe-14tsi-just-reply-please-if-you-have-had-an-engine-replaced 

 

 

Edited 1 February, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[Yogi-Bear]

17 minutes ago, GTD184 said:

a uncharacteristic noise

 

And yet VW have said the noise in your gearbox is characteristic... so what's the problem?

 

If they are telling the truth, you are worrying over nothing and you really aren't going to get anywhere. If they are lying, then as long as you have the proof that the noise has been there from the start, and it is later confirmed that this was a sign of future failure, they will have to replace the gearbox for free - no matter whether you are out of warranty or not.

 

In the meantime, you have a car sat there which you are paying for but not using. The only person losing out from that is you. The problem you have is that you must prove VW are lying and that the noise is not characteristic. If you can do that, then great. If not, I do sympathise with you, but just use the car and get rid of it at the end of the finance deal (simply hand it back if selling it is troublesome due to the noise).

[GTD184]

27 minutes ago, WiggosSideburns said:

 

And yet VW have said the noise in your gearbox is characteristic... so what's the problem?

 

If they are telling the truth, you are worrying over nothing and you really aren't going to get anywhere. If they are lying, then as long as you have the proof that the noise has been there from the start, and it is later confirmed that this was a sign of future failure, they will have to replace the gearbox for free - no matter whether you are out of warranty or not.

 

In the meantime, you have a car sat there which you are paying for but not using. The only person losing out from that is you. The problem you have is that you must prove VW are lying and that the noise is not characteristic. If you can do that, then great. If not, I do sympathise with you, but just use the car and get rid of it at the end of the finance deal (simply hand it back if selling it is troublesome due to the noise).

 

I am in disagreement with VW because "characteristic" is a loose term used by many manufacturers to avoid their moral responsibilities.......It is widely accepted by many that the noise emanating from suspect DSG's is NOT normal operational noise.....That is the problem!

 

It is my wife's car and she has chosen not to drive it because consumer law states that if you continue to use the defective product you are deemed to have accepted it in its defective state. She has no intention of driving a £44k car around with a defective transmission for the next 3 years! 

[Yogi-Bear]

2 minutes ago, GTD184 said:

avoid their moral responsibilities

 

Unfortunately, morals don't come into it.

 

5 minutes ago, GTD184 said:

She has no intention of driving a £44k car around with a defective transmission for the next 3 years!

 

But she's happy to have it sat on the drive for the next 3 years whilst you're still paying for it?

[GTD184]

1 minute ago, WiggosSideburns said:

But she's happy to have it sat on the drive for the next 3 years whilst you're still paying for it?

 

Your crystal ball is better informed than mine then?!

 

[GTD184]

1 hour ago, AwaoffSki said:

 

Interesting video content....thanks for posting

 

 

[Guest]

Quite interesting reading 'some' of this thread. When people start quoting quotes of quotes it all becomes hard to read and the inevitable mudslinging which unfortunately occurs in all such discussions just isn't helpful. So my apologies if any of the following this has been mentioned in the last page and a half. To be honest all the necessary details were discussed in the first page, the rest is err...  tittle tattle. Quoting or posting videos of what an Australian motor magazine says etc is quite frankly a waste of time and effort and serves no purpose.

 

Lots of talk about courts and VW and problems around the world and...  Basically it's *******s. GOLF184 - Hope you've been given correct legal advice because go in to any court armed with this 'evidence' and you'll have wasted your money.

 

Forget everything you've read. Your case is against the supplying dealer. Don't even mention VW because they are not part of the contract - they have nothing to do with it - VW are not liable. It's just you -v- the supplying dealer.

 

You're case is you've been sold an unsatisfactory product. Not sure how long you've owned the car but again it's wrong to say it's up to the purchaser to prove fault. Yes life is easier to reject a car within the 1st 30days but you have 6mths before it becomes your responsibility to prove the fault has been present since delivery.

 

You are 100% doing the right thing by not driving the car. Continuing to use the car would cancel any rejection.

 

If your dealer maintains it's a 'characteristic' then rejection within 1st 30 days is easy peasy. After 30days then simply drive a few more similar engine / gearbox cars and see if the issue is present. Whatever you do, don't go quoting one person said this, one person said that, the bloke from Australia says...  That's not evidence.  You need to sit in a similar car/engine/gearbox combo with someone from the garage who sold you the car, and agree that there is no such noice in another car. That'll immediately cancel out their 'characteristic' theory. If the demo car producing similar sounds then the garage are corrct - it's a characteristic. You simply can't pre-judge the outcome.

 

All I can say is I had a sort of similar situation with Honda. The only advice I can offer is it was less costly for me to simply sell the car than go thru a court process where there is no guarantee of success. Notwithstanding the fees involved, court process is a lengthy affair and the longer your car sits on your drive, the more it depreciates.

 

Good luck with whatever you do. 

[McGyles]

On 31. 1. 2018 at 10:48, GTD184 said:

 

Just because a VW is not a luxury brand does it mean that you have to accept poor refinement? A £44k car is hardly a cheap car and should resemble something remotely refined and free from what I consider major defects.

 

 

If this is the case shown on the video (transmission assembly violently shaking) this is not "poor refinement" but a fault somewhere in the drive assembly. This should not be there on ANY CARS no matter what the value is.

 

44k is alot of money (well maybe not for people who sit on 4 different boards and do nothing but LITERAL monkey bussiness *cough* looking at you Winterkorp), that's why i'm saying it's a shame that you are not using your car, because all of that money is going to waste. I sympathise that you are put off (putting it likely) after a new car you payed alot of money for has this obvious mechanical fault and no one wants to take responsibility.

[McGyles]

On 1. 2. 2018 at 12:02, AwaoffSki said:

No European Recall, just eventually a Service Campaign. Late 2013, 2014 for Skoda UK.

Not all vehicles are even done, not done yet.

 

The DQ200 is by design a faulty transmission and to see that we didn't get a recall nor the "cheat diesel vehicles" buyoff here in EU is disgraceful. We can all thank mutti Merkel and german autoindustry lobby for that. I support the EU and am a proud European citizen (not going into brexi discussion) but to see how much profit VAG had in 2015 and 2016 whilst paying for fines in the rest of the world, i feel that people in europe where there hasn't been a recall in these 2 cases, are being cheated out of their money. There should have been more pressure from the (in)famous EU institutions regarding consumer protection. And the most amusing part of this is that this affected alot of germans because VW is their top brand (namely peoples car). There were many reports where germans feel cheated and don't want to drive their cars anymore, so this isn't the case of germany vs other people but more capital vs consumer interest and we all know that capital has no nationality.

[Rooted]

Skoda proud of how many they produce now,

but not so quick to mention there were still failures 2013-2015 & another Service Campaign started 2017. '34H5'.

ŠKODA produces 1.5 millionth DQ 200 dual-clutch transmission at Vrchlabí plant - ŠKODA Storyboard.mhtml

Volkswagen ‘DSG issue’ is over, transformation of aftersales services underway _ Motor Trader Car News.mhtml

Volkswagen Passenger Cars Malaysia meets with customers, announces additional two-year DSG warranty - #MTHRFKNWIN.mhtml

[McGyles]

It's the same as in US, home of modern day capitalism, where people are proud of how big their turd is. Same here, doesn't matter if it's good or not, the important thing is that they make alot of them.

[McGyles]

I've researched this on the german Škoda/Audi/VW forums too and this is happening in all gears at low revs, with both DQ250 (6-speed wet) and DQ500 (7-speed wet), for instance driving in 5th gear at 50km/h or in 3rd at 20km/h with no throttle applied. I personaly see the fix in just reprogramming the mechatronics unit to downshift at higher RPM and not to wait for the engine to start stalling under load with no throttle applied.

 

Don't know why they even make software to go that low withouth downshifting (VAG is bragging how they are employing less and less engineers and more economists and stylists with the R&D, guess monkeys are cheaper than educated engineers), it's probably something cooked-up in their underqualified R&D dept that sooner shifting and spongy throttle pedal burn less fuel and sell cars more than something that actualy mechanically makes sense. Basic laws of thermodynamics go out of the window, replaced by cheat-code programmers.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's the entire automotive industry and not just VAG (just look at the GLC and many automotive journalists who still to this day compliment it, trying to peddle you the broken motor that has less to do with proper engineering than your manualy flushing toilet).

 

Although there were some that said it happened at arround 100km/h in 7th gear but that problem was fixed with changing engine/transmission mounting bushes.

 

 

[GTD184]

18 minutes ago, McGyles said:

I've researched this on the german Škoda/Audi/VW forums too and this is happening in all gears at low revs, with both DQ250 (6-speed wet) and DQ500 (7-speed wet), for instance driving in 5th gear at 50km/h or in 3rd at 20km/h with no throttle applied. I personaly see the fix in just reprogramming the mechatronics unit to downshift at higher RPM and not to wait for the engine to start stalling under load with no throttle applied.

 

I have the DQ250 in my Mk 7 Golf GTD and have no noise issues whatsoever, in original box and replacement after 8,000 miles from new due to drive-ability issues including savage gear snatching, clonking downshifts.....the normal stuff!!

 

Original box had 3 mechatronic resets but didn't alter the gear change characteristics.

 

In my wife's Tiguan the issue is metallic grating noise at low RPM's downshifting from 4th and driving at constant 30/40mph.....sounds like a bag of marbles in a washing machine drum!

 

Quote

 

 

Edited 5 February, 2018 by GTD184

[McGyles]

You can check some vids where owners of Superb with DSG (DQ250) have complained that at low speed high gear (low RPM) there is audible rattling noise, aswell as on german forums there are some complaints from Audi Q2 and Golf owners.

[GTD184]

21 hours ago, McGyles said:

I've researched this on the german Škoda/Audi/VW forums too and this is happening in all gears at low revs, with both DQ250 (6-speed wet) and DQ500 (7-speed wet), for instance driving in 5th gear at 50km/h or in 3rd at 20km/h with no throttle applied. I personaly see the fix in just reprogramming the mechatronics unit to downshift at higher RPM and not to wait for the engine to start stalling under load with no throttle applied.

 

Any links?

[McGyles]

 

[andyvee]

Different gearbox and a different 'characteristic'. Doesn't sound anything like a noisy bearing.

[McGyles]

Yes this is DQ250 with a similar problem. This was explained as being a "car characteristic" by Škoda.

 

Forum link (different problem - suspension here, but this problem mentioned too):

 

Edited 6 February, 2018 by McGyles
Added link