Diesel emissions.....

[lawnmowerman]

I see Mercedes are recalling 3 million diesel vehicles over emission concerns.

 

I wonder........

 

Bill 

 

 

[Rooted]

What are you wondering?

VW Group are owning up to 11 million Euro 5 World wide with Defeat Devices and doing a voluntary recall in the UK on 1.2 million.

[lawnmowerman]

2 minutes ago, Awayoffski said:

What are you wondering?

VW Group are owning up to 11 million Euro 5 World wide with Defeat Devices and doing a voluntary recall in the UK on 1.2 million.

 

If they have skeletons in the cupboard? Applying to both Euro 5 & 6.

 

Bill 

Edited 19 July, 2017 by lawnmowerman

[Rooted]

Well late 2015 it was discovered that there were Implausible / irregular Co2 figures for VW Group vehicles and after retesting some Euro 6 petrols and diesels had to have revised co2 g/km rating changed, some vehicle removed from sale and some bought back.

Then after that there was to be an investigation into Euro 6 Audi A3 2.0TDI emissions.

 

So quite possibly skeletons still to be revealed as in the Software that came into affect with DSG's under test conditions and how they affected Euro 6 Emission test results of Smog Tests in the US.

[Aspman]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/18/daimler-recalls-millions-diesel-cars-harmful-emissions/

 

If my car was out of warranty I'd be avoiding any 'fix' like the plague.

[Tilt]

Topics need merging, but would the cheat not also cheat any mot emissions tests??? Just a thought.

[chimaera]

1 hour ago, Tilt said:

Topics need merging, but would the cheat not also cheat any mot emissions tests??? Just a thought.

It depends heavily on what's tested. Here in Ireland, the only test of diesel emissions is smoke opacity which is going to be unaffected by the sort of cheating we're talking about here. In a modern diesel, there should be little or no smoke due to the presence of the DPF.

[KenONeill]

1 minute ago, chimaera said:

It depends heavily on what's tested. Here in Ireland, the only test of diesel emissions is smoke opacity which is going to be unaffected by the sort of cheating we're talking about here. In a modern diesel, there should be little or no smoke due to the presence of the DPF.

Also @Tilt Same in the UK, and I suspect the rest of the EU.

 

"The cheat" for EU purposes only gives "better" figures in the ECE testing regimes and not in "real world" conditions.

[chimaera]

4 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

Also @Tilt Same in the UK, and I suspect the rest of the EU.

 

"The cheat" for EU purposes only gives "better" figures in the ECE testing regimes and not in "real world" conditions.

Specifically, the various cheats have been about meeting the type approval emissions standards during the NEDC while not being compliant in real-world conditions. The irony is that if manufacturers hadn't cheated so much on Euro 5, Euro 6 would probably have been more lenient on NOx than it is.

[lol-lol]

20 hours ago, lawnmowerman said:

I see Mercedes are recalling 3 million diesel vehicles over emission concerns.

I wonder........

Bill 

 

They are just doing the decent thing, like Renault did with its recall of a few thousand vehicles a few months ago. Tweaking the emission control software to reduce NOX by 10 or 20% when the cars are operating in the cooler climates.  VW cheat was entirely different matter than this Mercedes-Renault tweakette.     

[lawnmowerman]

4 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

They are just doing the decent thing, like Renault did with its recall of a few thousand vehicles a few months ago. Tweaking the emission control software to reduce NOX by 10 or 20% when the cars are operating in the cooler climates.  VW cheat was entirely different matter than this Mercedes-Renault tweakette.     

Thanks.

 

Just naturally suspicious of any utterances from manufacturers now .

 

Bill 

Edited 20 July, 2017 by lawnmowerman
Grammar

[lol-lol]

7 hours ago, lawnmowerman said:

Thanks.

Just naturally suspicious of any utterances from manufacturers now .

Bill 

 

 

The VW Group was caught out for cutting corners buy fitting insufficient NOX treating systems just to save a few tens of Euros per car so they could gain the top spot of world's no 1 car producer by volume but as we know that failed spectacularly and has resulted in a $20B bill.

 

Other manufacturers (ie Mercedes and Renault) who share some tech anyways, have recognized that the NOX systems of some of their cars, whilst they do perform OK in the lab at those standard lab temperatures, they do not do so well at the temperatures typically experienced when driving around Northern Europe ie 10C or thereabouts, and so both those responsible manufacturers have tweaked their NOX post combustion systems to perform better at these lower ambient temperatures.

 

Ultimately the goal at several European national levels is to bar diesel completely from urban areas.  I can see a need for internal combustion engines as a range extender for non-urban areas, probably be a single cylinder unit that works in conjunction with the electrical motive power system and due to its size, and clean emission tech, it should not be much of a contributor to pollution. A single cylinder engine of 250cc can produce over 50 hp to push along a car to around 100 mph, maybe not quite enough for Germany but OK everywhere else.  

 

Edited 21 July, 2017 by lol-lol

[Breezy_Pete]

"Tweaked" as in moved away from switching off these systems completely, automatically, below certain temperatures? Big tweakage, that.

[lol-lol]

51 minutes ago, Wino said:

"Tweaked" as in moved away from switching off these systems completely, automatically, below certain temperatures? Big tweakage, that.

 

More like not getting in to the temperature range of actually switching on these systems in the first place hence the pressure on Mercedes, Renault and other for these exhaust gas processing system to kick in at a lower temperature ie more like 10C ambient rather than just before 20C so it passes the lab based emission test? 

 

Oddly this is where petrol cars, due to them being more thermally inefficient, have less of an issue as they get to operating temperature quicker and the emission system can kick in soon ie Cat etc.  Also stop start does not help with this issue.  Electrically heated emission treatment systems sound like they are a partial solution here.

 

One a related pollution issue the UK government has just abandoned the electrification of 3 west Coast main lines so overall UK pollution is going to suffer due to that decision and perhaps road vehicles to make up the difference?      

[Breezy_Pete]

First paragraph sounds like spin, rather than physics or engineering. As usual.

[Sad555]

Were not alone

[Sad555]

Post fix warning light.              

[Tony R]

Not only Mercedes ( Daimler ) are now involved but B M W who I thought had denied all  complicity?    http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1111670_eu-investigating-diesel-collusion-among-audi-bmw-mercedes-porsche-vw-report

 

              

[lol-lol]

14 hours ago, Tony R said:

Not only Mercedes ( Daimler ) are now involved but B M W who I thought had denied all  complicity?    http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1111670_eu-investigating-diesel-collusion-among-audi-bmw-mercedes-porsche-vw-report

 

The BMW, Mercedes, Renault recalls are just for tweaks to improve the efficency of the emission systems to edge their emission system closer to the lap conditions and results and not like the VW Group that had a engine management sub routine in the program to fool the testing, different kettle if fish. 

 

 

[mac11irl]

You dont like Renault (Dacia's dad.) Gettin a bit of shtick do ya Lol Lol

[lol-lol]

6 hours ago, mac11irl said:

You dont like Renault (Dacia's dad.) Gettin a bit of shtick do ya Lol Lol

 

I am very pleased with the Logan and the Clio Mk 4 and do not regret moving over to Dacia/Renault after a dozen Skoda (and even Audis and SEATs) including several VRSs and and a L&K.

 

Skoda, and VW Group generally lots its attraction in so many ways during this decade.  Skoda stopped having a hot hatch after not replacing the Fabia 2 VRSs. The value of bang per buck is nowhere near where it was in the nineties and noughties.  Then Skoda UK, "rationalised" its UK dealership and lost good family run dealerships with very high approval rating for multi-sited dealerships which give nowhere near the level of service.  My fine local dealership went over from Skoda to Dacia and Renault, choosing this franchise after much consideration, and I moved with them.

 

The Dacia absolutely resonates with the values that was the foundation of Skoda's fast growth early years, fine machines of unmatched value. I am torn between for the next car to add to the fleet between the Clio RS or the beautiful new Megan Sport Tourer, petrol of course, with 7 speed EDC (DSG) box.

 

Add to this the massive deception that VAG carried out on the public over the diesel emission scandal, if they would conceal this what else might they conceal, I cannot imagine going back to Skoda or Audi or SEAT (and I plan to move to Spain but then Renault produce a lot of cars in Spain too) until VAG have a resolution of this trust issue.            

[moley]

Renault might not be clean as other makes

New research by Which? analysed 278 diesel cars from leading global car manufacturers between between 2012 and 2016, testing average NOx emissions alongside official Euro 5 and more recent Euro 6 limits - which are set at 0.18g/km and 0.08g/km respectively.

tests found that all of the 16 diesel Renault cars tested had NOx emissions that were up to four times higher for Euro 5 and nine times above Euro 6 limits - 0.73g/km and 0.72g/km respectively. Nissan, a brand that partners with Renault, were also among the highest polluters with all six cars tested having an average NOx emissions of 0.8g/km. 

[lol-lol]

Yes it frighten stuff which is why so many European cities and countries now have the sticker system which is related to the Euro emission standard but the diesels get an extra group demotion in some schemes and if pollution hits certain levels then the bar is moved higher and higher on who is allowed in to these area.

 

My Renault TCE engine puts out only 10 mg/km ie one sixth of the petrol limit and one eighth of the diesel limit so even if much worse in the real word it is going to be nowhere near all these dirty diesels, no matter which make they are.   There are even concerns that diesels with SCR systems are not as good as originally expected ie the hope was that they would reduce NOX by a factor of several fold but some result just show an improvement of 20% or so hence some European cities planning to ban diesels completely within the next decade or so.  

[Tilt]

16 hours ago, lol-lol said:

My Renault TCE engine puts out only 10 mg/km 

 

How are these figures worked out though, and are they fact???

 

Or are they Renault's own figures??? Even Independently tested figures can be manipulated by someones hand in someone else's back pocket.

Unless you have tested / had them tested, yourself.

 

Car manufacturers will probably all be as dishonest as each other if they feel they need to be.

[moley]

7 hours ago, Tilt said:

 

How are these figures worked out though, and are they fact???

 

Or are they Renault's own figures??? Even Independently tested figures can be manipulated by someones hand in someone else's back pocket.

Unless you have tested / had them tested, yourself.

 

Car manufacturers will probably all be as dishonest as each other if they feel they need to be.

These will be the figures from the flawed EU lab test. In the real world many of these sub 1 litre turbo petrol engines have found to be producing as much as or more NOx that some diesel engines. 

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/eco-engines-are-among-the-most-polluting-according-to-new-emissions-index/

Quote

Petrol cars in general produce less NOx per kilometre than diesel vehicles. However, the new test shows that the Ford Focus 1.0 EcoBoost and Mini Cooper 1.5, which both feature three cylinder, turbocharged petrol engines that are said by their makers to bring “downsizing” efficiencies to drivers, produce far more NOx in real world driving than petrol vehicles with more traditional, larger engines. As the worst performing petrol car tested to date, the Focus 1.0 EcoBoost was ranked “E”, which means it emitted between 250 and 500 milligrams per kilometre (mg/km) of NOx, compared with the current Euro 6 limit of 60mg/km for petrol cars.