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Fitted aftermarket speakers; bass performance lower than factory ones


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Introduction

 

I’ve got a 2007, 57-reg Fabia MkII, level 3 spec (so 8-speaker setup with separate tweeters and mid-bass component speakers).

 

Had to replace factory speakers due to failure, but sound lacking very noticeably in bass with replacements (Pioneer TS-G173Ci) compared to factory fit ones. New speakers are 45W nominal input. I understand existing HU (Columbus) is 20W output per channel. New speakers match impedance of old ones (4ohm) but I don’t know about the rest of the specs of the old ones.

 

I wasn't looking for a big upgrade to sound quality in my Fabia, just wanted to 
 

My questions:

 

·         How much of a difference does the speaker cone’s protrusion from the inner door metal matter, with regards to performance?

-          Speaker magnet clearly attracted to metal in door (can feel the magnetic field pulling at it)

-          Does this magnetism affect the speaker’s performance?

-          Should the whole speaker cone be proud of the door, rather than protruding part way?

 

·         What are the most effective, obvious ways of improving the performance of the speaker?

-          The old speakers’ spacers had a slim ring of foam between them and the inner door metal - could this really have made such a difference?

-          Is the bass from the speakers getting soaked up by the door through resonating?

 

TL:DR bit, to provide context:

 

·         Swapped out the factory Dance HU with a Skoda Columbus (VW RNS 510) almost 7 years ago. This worked perfectly satisfactorily for sound quality until:

·         One of the factory speakers failed a few weeks ago (main speaker, not tweeter in driver’s door; massaging the cone makes it come back intermittently, so know it’s the speaker that’s knackered)

·         As all the speakers are the same (front and back), decided to replace the lot, fearing only a matter of time before others also failed

·         Plumped for two sets of Pioneer TS-G173Ci (45-Watts nominal), as others seem to have got on OK with them in other VW group cars

·         Also purchased four Autoleads SAK-3103 spacers (old speakers had integral spacers, so cannot re-use)

·         Factory speakers riveted in, so drilled out

·         My major disappointment with new speakers is lack of bass compared to factory fit speakers married up to same HU. They sound fine apart from that.

 

Current circumstances:

  • The new spacers do not fit behind the door cards
  • Now suspect it was very snug fit behind cards with factory speakers, but cannot measure maximum clearance available in an enclosed space; inaccessible when door card is attached!
  • Even though new spacers are no taller (4cm), they are slightly larger diameter
  • This seems to foul the door card at different points, depending on front and rear doors
  • The new speakers are slightly bigger diameter too (factory fit ones are slightly funny size, apparently), but everything lines up to the holes factory-drilled through the door fine
  • Mounting speaker directly to door fits fine (does not foul window when lowered; ample clearance), but very little bass like this
  • MDF spacers have thus been hastily made by my father; 2cm thick (thickness of spare sheet of MDF)
  • MDF spacer allows the door card to fit on properly, but bass performance still lacking compared to factory speaker - should the speaker be prouder of the door?
  • Reluctant to start cutting holes in the door cards for fear that it'll be impossible to do neatly with tools available on plastic, not to mention little room for mistakes

 

 

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Looking at the specs there are two things that stand out mate.  89db sensitivity, and the shallow cone.  That's a pretty damning combination if you want good bass response.  Obviously the shallow cone is so that these will fit in several OEM locations without too much messing around.  The biggest problem is likely to be your sensitivity.  Generally OEM speakers are pretty sensitive so they can make the most of the (generally) meagre power output of the stock head unit.  They will probably be something like 92db, which although doesn't sound a lot, it's a bit like the Richter scale.  There's a noticeable difference between 89 and 90, for example.  It's your bass response that requires the most power.

 

With regard to the position, the magnet and the performance, the key elements to good bass response are a solid mounting and an air tight enclosure.  Generally speaking these are pretty difficult to achieve without custom spacers/purpose built rings and sealing/covering gaps in the door so that the door and the door card becomes an enclosure.  I've never known of problems with magnet proximity but I'll bow to somebody's better judgement.  These speakers are designed to perform well in tight spaces in doors, so....

 

In summary?  Everything you've mentioned are potential issues except the magnet, however, by far the biggest problem is likely to be the sensitivity.  Anything below about 91db really needs a separate amp to drive them sufficiently.  89db and 45w nominal is going to handle something like 50w - 100w RMS per channel, and isn't really designed to perform below an input of around 30-35w per channel RMS.   At a GUESS, I reckon your head unit is giving them 15w per channel or less.....  There's your issue.

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Thanks for your input, Danny.

The RNS 510 puts out 20w per channel, from what I can discern. Interestingly, other people have got on fine with these Pioneer speakers when married up to factory head units, which are presumably of similar output power (20-25w). One of the reviews (on Amazon) from where I bought the speakers mentioned they'd put them into their Leon, so another VW group vehicle. Plus other reviews cite decent bass, hence my buying these speakers in the first place.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pioneer-TS-G173Ci-Separate-Speaker-System/dp/B00PAQHI8Q

 

I've ordered some 30mm thick MDF spacers, some Dynamat Xtreme Speaker pack deadening material, and some Boom Mat 5.5" speaker baffles.

 

I intend to place the new, taller spacers over the Dynamat, (with a hole cut out round the speaker aperture in the inner door metal) and then place the speaker baffle between the speaker and the spacer. It would appear I may need to cut a hole at the back of the spacers to allow the speakers to 'breathe' into the door cavity. There are conflicting accounts as to whether leaving them sealed or not is best for speaker performance.

I would be reluctant to replace the HU as well, unless the output power to 50w per channel is really likely to make such a difference. In which case, I would be interested to hear recommendations.

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Generally speaking a sealed enclosure would provide better bass and mid response from smaller speakers, but it's not always the case.  You wouldn't have to replace your head unit btw, but it may be worth adding a 2 or 4 channel amp into your set up.  Nowadays you can get amps that are remarkably compact yet compromise very little on SQ.

 

At the end of the day though, these are only £40 speakers.  There will be limitations at that price.  I wonder what people are comparing it to who said they're happy with the bass produced? :speechless:

Edited by Danny77
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as Danny quite rightly states the issue you will have here is sensitivity  and power out/input.

 

the standard speakers have been quite well engineered to work with the head unit - that's not to say they are great speakers but they get the best out of them for what they are.

 

ideally speaker wise for aftermarket you're looking at something like Hertz as they have a sensitivity of 93db however they also require a large constant power which the hu wont be able to supply. so you're looking at the following options:

1 : fit aftermarket speakers and then amp them up - you need to mass load the panels though or your just going to get a lot of rattling

2: if its just more bass you're after then the best choice would be to fit a line out converter and add a sub

 

as you've already fitted the speakers I would go down the amp route first

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Thanks for your comments!

I notice the Pioneer speakers produce rather more treble / midrange than the factory speakers do, having been connecting / disconnecting both with the same source selected on the Columbus for comparison.

The Pioneers actually have a sensitivity of 91db (look at the Pioneer website); I have seen very few speakers with a higher number than this, so I'm not sure where you've been looking at for the specs.

I'm not sure where I could fit an auxiliary amp, how I would feed it when the Columbus has no aux line out, or how I would power it.

 

What is meant by "mass load the panels"?

How does one go about replacing factory speakers when all that is required is a like-for-like replacement in terms of sound quality and power requirements so that no new head unit is required?

 

Is is really worth spending more than £40 per pair on door speakers when the head unit is not being replaced, and the purpose of the exercise is not a speaker upgrade?

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ok not sure where you're getting your info from:

  • Maximum input power: 280 W
  • Nominal input power: 45 W
  • Frequency response: 26 - 28000 Hz
  • Sensitivity (1W/1m): 89 dB - I agree it does state 91 on pioneers site  but even so its not enough really
  • Crossover Frequency 4.600 Hz

the treble will be much higher/better with these than the standard tweeters as the factory ones are rubbish.

if by this you mean there is a lack of bass, that's because your HU is producing less than half of their nominal required power simple answer they're not getting enough power to drive to bass properly.

to get an amp running off factory hu you need a line out converter ideally with inline gain control - fit this to the rear speakers in the quadlock - this will give you a RCA

Line out / remote - piggy back off the fuse for cigarette lighter

 

mass load the panels = Dynamat or equivalent to stop vibrations/rattles/lower the door/ mounting area frequency

 

£40 or more on speakers - tbh £40 for a set of speakers is cheap but that's entirely your choice - if you want a like for like sound, put the originals back in or to make these sound better amp them up of fit a better HU with more power.

 

if its just more bass you're after - fit a sub

Edited by Gissin
correction from site info
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There are quite a few sets of components on the market with higher sensitivity ratings than 91db.  If you want a full range/coax speaker there are even more!

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Yeah, there are some, just a bit harder to find. :)

Thanks for the tip regarding Hertz speakers; I'm quite tempted by the UNO K170. Not least as aside from the higher sensitivity, I see it's already got lots of different holes drilled for ease of installation.

 

What would you go for in my case? Putting in an in-line amp sounds like it would be quite a faff, so more willing to try different speakers.

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Broad range of things; quite a lot of electronic stuff so different flavours of house, trance, garage, drum 'n' bass, a bit of classical and jazz, plus a fair amount of speech (via Radio 4). Sources for music are either an SD card, or radio (Kiss and Radio 1 generally).

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if you put some hertz in, you will still need to amp them up, as that's exactly what I've done / had to do - the ones you are looking at putting in require 70W continuous so will sound worse than what you currently have it - as you will not have enough power.

 

regardless of what input or type of music you will listen too, they will sound bad if not amped.

 

amp'ing up is pretty easy but if you don't feel confident get someone to do it for you it wont cost that much £120 or something 

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Well presumably what I need is an in-line amplifier, right? Can you direct me to a suitable product?

 

I just don't want to get into having to cut / splice wires, and uncertainty about whether it'll switch off with the ignition / head unit.

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5 hours ago, Gissin said:

ok not sure where you're getting your info from:

  • Maximum input power: 280 W
  • Nominal input power: 45 W
  • Frequency response: 26 - 28000 Hz
  • Sensitivity (1W/1m): 89 dB - I agree it does state 91 on pioneers site  but even so its not enough really
  • Crossover Frequency 4.600 Hz

the treble will be much higher/better with these than the standard tweeters as the factory ones are rubbish.

if by this you mean there is a lack of bass, that's because your HU is producing less than half of their nominal required power simple answer they're not getting enough power to drive to bass properly.

to get an amp running off factory hu you need a line out converter ideally with inline gain control - fit this to the rear speakers in the quadlock - this will give you a RCA

Line out / remote - piggy back off the fuse for cigarette lighter

 

mass load the panels = Dynamat or equivalent to stop vibrations/rattles/lower the door/ mounting area frequency

 

£40 or more on speakers - tbh £40 for a set of speakers is cheap but that's entirely your choice - if you want a like for like sound, put the originals back in or to make these sound better amp them up of fit a better HU with more power.

 

if its just more bass you're after - fit a sub

 

The specs for the Pioneer speakers came from their website: https://www.pioneer-car.eu/eur/products/ts-g173ci - but looks like you've found these already, so no point in re-posting.

 

Yeah, fitting a sub starts going down a line that's more involved than I want. For instance losing boot space. Plus, the door speakers were producing satisfactory bass hitherto, so not really looking at a massive improvement over that level which a sub would provide.

 

Would, say, one of those Kenwood / Alpine / Pioneer naviceiver HUs that churn out 50W per channel work OK with those Hertz speakers? I know they still fall short of the 70W, but as it closes the gap considerably...

I starting to think that as a bridging option, pending re-visiting this project in future, I may simply get some 2nd-hand factory speakers, as I can see there are some Polo ones going on eBay at the moment, which are newer than what I've got, so (in theory!) will be in better condition. Plus they're only £15-£20 delivered.

 

Don't forget I didn't embark on this with a massive sound upgrade in mind; I've only been forced into this situation due to speaker failure, and thus saw no reason to spend much on the speakers. My only reservation about the factory speakers was the paper cones, and feared the life of any more like-for-like would be somewhat finite.

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There isn't such thing as an "inline amplifier". You would need to splice into the rear speaker cables etc

 

The foam cup you a bought to go over the back of the speaker isn't ideal as the speakers are not designed for it. 

 

The deadening will just stop rattling. 

 

I would suggest fitting a wave diffuser behind the speaker inside the door cavity. 

 

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1 hour ago, ryan-re said:

There isn't such thing as an "inline amplifier". You would need to splice into the rear speaker cables etc

 

The foam cup you a bought to go over the back of the speaker isn't ideal as the speakers are not designed for it. 

 

The deadening will just stop rattling. 

 

I would suggest fitting a wave diffuser behind the speaker inside the door cavity. 

 

Well, yes, I had hoped that it would be possible to use a neat termination of cables via the existing quadlock loom, as alluded to earlier by Gissin.

 

The foam cup, as I expected, does supress bass when enclosed, so I've cut a hole in the back. I needed to shorten it anyway as it fouls the window glass when lowered. My main intention was to shield the rear of the cone and the magnet assembly from dirt and water ingress seeping round the glass, although the seals round the window do seem to be working quite well presently.

 

The other intention was to produce more deadening between the speaker and the door's metal sheeting. I'd say these functions are largely carried out on the factory speakers by the integral spacer assembly to which they are inserted, but which I cannot use because of the speaker cone being moulded in and the spacer not being of a standard diameter.

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I have some Pioneer TS-G172CIs which I haven't fitted yet, but they come with a high pass filter for connecting the tweeter. If you've wired this up wrong then you could be filtering the low frequencies to the woofer.

 

The Pioneer website says the sensitive the of 173s is 91dB and the box for my 172s says 89dB (+- 1.5dB).

 

Is fitting an aftermarket HU an option?

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On ‎09‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 12:23, vrsTom said:

I have some Pioneer TS-G172CIs which I haven't fitted yet, but they come with a high pass filter for connecting the tweeter. If you've wired this up wrong then you could be filtering the low frequencies to the woofer.

 

The Pioneer website says the sensitive the of 173s is 91dB and the box for my 172s says 89dB (+- 1.5dB).

 

Is fitting an aftermarket HU an option?

have a amp on standby ;)

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 09/08/2017 at 12:23, vrsTom said:

I have some Pioneer TS-G172CIs which I haven't fitted yet, but they come with a high pass filter for connecting the tweeter. If you've wired this up wrong then you could be filtering the low frequencies to the woofer.

 

The Pioneer website says the sensitive the of 173s is 91dB and the box for my 172s says 89dB (+- 1.5dB).

 

Is fitting an aftermarket HU an option?

The TS-G173CIs apparently don't need a filter, as apparently this is taken care of at the mid-bass speaker - none are supplied by Pioneer in the package; also I don't know where the wires separate for the tweeters in the front, with these not being located in the door with the mid-bass speakers but in the A-pillar instead.

I'm going to look at changing the HU, and possibly new speakers (again) too, but this time resorting to a professional installer as the door disassembly process is becoming wearing.

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If I am honest with you, I'd have just place the original speaker, like-for-like if it was just a worn speaker. There is no real way of saying one was going so all are! The same as one headlight bulb has gone so the other may go too. You might find the fronts more worn then the rear due to being used more or something but really, one gone does not mean all going! I did have a similar situation once in an old Mercedes, where the paper cones dried out as the speakers were mounted on the dash, near each front pillar. I got advise from my local audio shop, who advised on a pair of drop-in speakers (Pioneer, if I remember correctly) That were quite a reasonable price, pre-plugged to fit and sounded better then standard  speakers. You will, of course, have the door removal ****e to contend with!

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On 22/08/2017 at 07:50, Willum said:

The TS-G173CIs apparently don't need a filter, as apparently this is taken care of at the mid-bass speaker - none are supplied by Pioneer in the package; also I don't know where the wires separate for the tweeters in the front, with these not being located in the door with the mid-bass speakers but in the A-pillar instead.

I'm going to look at changing the HU, and possibly new speakers (again) too, but this time resorting to a professional installer as the door disassembly process is becoming wearing.

 

There will be a filter someware. Probably have the cap attached to the mid's basket to make instalation easier.

From what you've said I think you are expecting aftermarket speakers to be able to match oem speakers but theres more to it than that.

 

Oem speakers are paper cones. Making them very sensitive and able to produce the lower midbass notes quite well at low volumes but drop off badly as you turn it up. Also, they will be designed in conjunction with Skoda so have had x watts in mind. The aftermarket speakers are all designed to be run with an external amp, not the 10watts your headunit can give them.

 

I'd suggest getting a small amp and it will transform the speakers. Also the cup you have over the back of them wont be helping. They are designed to play into the door cavity, not a tiny enclosure.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I've cut a hole in the back of the foam cup to allow the speaker to breathe. As I was half expecting, the speaker performs better with the hole than without. 

The main purpose for the baffle was to reduce the quantity of vibration being transmitted from the speaker into the door panel, as it's closed cell foam, and goes right the way around the mounting rim between it and the mounting surface. I also wanted to provide a bit of protection from dust / dirt and any water droplets which might drip down from the window glass above.

I'm thinking along the lines of a compact amplifier, and there seems to be something suitable from Clarion, as you'll see from my post in the other thread.

 

My current head unit actually produces 20w per channel, so I'm not sure where the idea that it only produces half that comes from.

 

Getting more factory speakers is a bit difficult as:

 

* Like-for-like ones are not readily available, particularly if you want brand-new

* Used ones going on eBay are little cheaper, if at all, than the Pioneers I've bought, and you're taking a bit of a gamble on their condition / use history

* They're designed to be riveted in place, so fitting replacements of this nature is tricky, particularly on the Fabia as there are no other apertures in the sheet metal to reach through behind when attaching fastenings such as U-nuts, etc.

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  • 1 month later...

Hows your journey into car audio coming on? 

 

I've played around for a number of years, made silly mistakes, bought twice cause I'd bought the wrong thing. My first venture into audio upgrade was a Rockford  Fosgate and MB Quarts combination - 10" RF Punch Sub, 6.5" MB Quarts Component Speakers and an RF Punch 120a2 Amp (the amp was wired in tri mode so powered the who system) It sounded good but I stripped the car and sound deadened the whole car (including the roof!). What I would say is it never sounded like the oem system, highs sounded more detailed and bass was tighter but not as deep from the front speakers (hence the Sub). (I'd say that install was 7.5 out of 10

 

I then went on to buy a load of infinity Kappa Speakers an Alpine amp and a Vibe Sub for the next car, which then went in to an audi cabriolet  (5.5 out of 10) and then in to a fiat seicento... In the fiat it had a tiny pair of 4.5" co-ax speakers and the sub (also had a playstation 2 and screen) This probably is the second best sounding install I've had as the speakers we're almost perfectly positioned (8 out of 10)

 

I then spent some time working for Audi/VW Group and had many dynaudio systems (7.5 out of 10) in my company demos and went down to MK to see & listen to their systems - they were nice but cost a fortune to have but the installation was done in the factory so everything was put together once and not taken apart like you have to with an after market install.

 

I've used MB Quarts, Infinity, Vibe, Alpine and Dynaudio... speaker and always had a soft spot for JL Audio...speakers I nearly went for Focal or Audison/Hertz but for my rapid I took it to Oxford Car Audio and got Mark and Will to do the install and sound deadening. I ended up with a pair of JL Audio C3 650's. its been back in once or twice and had a few tweaks to the Audison Bit 10d (dsp and eq)... I now have a fully active system that was designed around sound quality, the stereo imaging is top with a real distinction in where instruments, vocals, and sounds come from. My old RockFord Amp finally gave up after 17 years and was replaced by an alpine mono amp. I passed my vibe sub on to my nephew but did well on an ebay auction for an alpine 8" sub box and my 10 year old Alpine 4 channel amp is still going strong. That and mountains of sound deadening and time spent tweaking it...(9.5 out of 10)...

 

I'm not looking to change this car for a long time now!!!!

 

Anyway, aftermarket speakers never sound the same in terms of bass but your ears will get used to it or add a sub... if I was you I'd get a little 4 channel amp and power the fronts off channel 1 & 2 then bridge 3/4 for a sub. Pick one up off eBay or something like that then look up on youtube how to set up an amp using a multimeter and set your Low pass frequency on the sub around 80hz then the high pass to our fronts around 80 hz so they don't have to reach the lows they're not really good at reaching ... speak to a Four master independent stereo shop - I can only sing Oxford Car Audio's praises.... they'd normally offer you help and advice but paythem and they'll do an amazing job ;)

 

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  • 1 year later...

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