The story of the famous DQ200 clutch slip...

[n1tro]

And if anyone wonders how does it feels like when driving car? 

 

Well, it feels like shi-t, because you feel that car is not accelerating as fast as you wanted. Imagine you're driving a bike,

and you want to accelerate fast and you press lets say right pedal very strong, but its like beneath your tires is oil

and your wheels slip. So you lost some power in legs, but did not accelerate at all. Sorry on clunky explanation.

 

And for others, do not buy DQ200, buy DQ250.

[Rooted]

Is there some reason that people with faulty DSG or cars just keep going on about them and not having skoda repair them properly, you have a warranty and consumer rights.  Seems odd to not get your car fixed.

[Kobayashi]

worth a read ;

 

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/volkswagen-group-s-dsg-gearbox-explained-88928.html

 

''The DQ200 is at the center of a major scandal and recall. Due to an engineering flaw, it seems that electrolysis can occur within the gearbox's control unit. This in turn results in juddering or even total loss of power. Volkswagen has issued a massive recall affecting 1.6 million cars globally''

Edited 1 December, 2017 by Kobayashi

[Rooted]

Lots has happened since 2014, like failures in some DQ200 DSG built from 2013-2015 and the need for Service Campaign '34H5' which is a Software Update.

Anyone with DSG issues should be making sure that Dealership submit reports of their concerns and request that the DSG is investigated and diagnosed for faults.

& that the Owner contacts Skoda in their Country.

Then Skoda / VW can not say, "Never heard of anything like that'.   Or employees say "They all do that."  Some people someplace are just deaf, ignorant, maybe both, or just work with the VW Group and Official Dealerships.

ŠKODA Vrchlabí plant_ 500,000th DQ 200 transmission - Site & Motoring News - BRISKODA.mhtml

Edited 1 December, 2017 by AwaoffSki

[krigl]

Ok so to come back after a while...

The issue also in my case has resurfaced, since it has become colder outside.

At this moment my car is completely stock, no zip ties no extra gaskets, since I went ahead and again tried the dealer approach, but this time another one.

In the mean time I got my Obdeleven dongle and app and have been monitoring different parameters of engine and gearbox. I have ruled out the knock sensor, since no retard on timing has been applied during these so called slips. Misfire counters rise quite slowly, maybe one or two a day, so ignition seems to be cool. I swallow my pride and I will admit, that I was wrong on this one!

 

On the other end, I did achieve good results by firming down the engine mounts so the engine and gearbox did not have so much free play in the engine bay. This resulted in minimizing the slips so they were hardly noticeable, but since now I am paranoic and can feel even the smallest slip, I was still not satisfied. The major breakthrough here was, that I have finally eliminated the damn pesky rattle that I have been haunting (I thought it was the wastegate and a number of other things). Since I zip tied all the engine mounts, to restrict movement of engine the rattle stopped immediately.

 

Why did I do the engine mount fiasco in the first place? Because when these slips are occurring, the engine is vibrating the most, since it is most of the time a high gear and low RPM state. Also If I can wiggle the engine by about 5cm by hand, I can not imagine how the rotary momentum of the engine does to itself in those kind of circumstances. I know that the mounts are soft to provide comfort, but maybe they have over done it in this case.

I have already spoken to the service guys and they said it is normal, but no one can explain the noise the engine mounts make.

I will however not replace them by myself, because for a test this is to expensive.

 

I also monitored the pressure of fluid in mechatronics and it is in spec in between around 40-60bar. The only interesting thing I came across is that in a 60km trip, the temperature of electronics only gets up to max 60 degrees Celsius and the oil only to 50 degrees Celsius in the mechatronics (ambient temperature is around 0 degrees Celsius), unfortunately I do not have summer time temperatures to compare, since the problem is not that obvious in the summer time.

[ettlz]

FYI: I have a manual 1.2TSI/110 that's has the gearbox mount replaced under warranty because if a knocking noise. For the first 3 weeks there was a noticeable reduction in vibration and driveline backlash, but now it's back to where it was.

 

Sometimes when pulling away it feels like the engine is 'loose' (in some sense, obviously it's not rolling around under the bonnet). I can push the mount with my thumb at the bolt maybe 5mm; goodness knows how much it moves when subject to output shaft torque -- I should set up a camera for this.

 

Oddly I get a different vibrational feel when manoeuvring in reverse than going forward. In reverse I get plain smooth engine vibration. Forwards it has a beat modulation. Coincidentally the play in the engine mount corresponds to the direction the engine would twist when going forwards.

 

Of course getting the techs to recognise this is half the battle since I suspect many of them aren't especially sensitive drivers.

 

I'm a sympathetic driver. I suspect another mount's not doing a good enough job. There may be a temperature-related element to this.

Edited 4 December, 2017 by ettlz

[krigl]

The main difference between forward and back is in the dogbone engine mount on the bottom. It has more rubber on back side than on front... the below picture is a worn one but the difference is more clear.

[vag07]

33 dakika önce, krigl dedi ki:

İleri ve geri arasındaki temel fark alttaki köpek kemiği motoru desteğidir. Arka tarafta ön taraftakinden daha fazla kauçuk var ... aşağıdaki resim aşınmış bir model ama fark daha net.

 

 

Selam,
bahsettiğin problemim var.
Resimleri istediklerinize yükledim.
Sorun yaklaşık% 80 oranında çözülmüş gibi görünüyor.

Edited 4 December, 2017 by vag07

[ettlz]

Interesting... krigl can you post pictures of the engine mount ties?

 

[I do wonder if the root cause of what's happening here affects manuals too but is not so noticeable (or gets too easily written off as driver error).]

[krigl]

You will have to wait till end of week for me to reinstall them, I have appointment with the dealer this week and since the car has warranty, it is not OK for them to see my DIY testing in progress

 

The main difference is that for a MT car you do not need accurate torque calculations from engine in order for transmission to work, with DSG it is necessary, and maybe this extra wobble affects this quite a bit... and also this can also relate to diesel cars, since we can eliminate the engine type with this theory.

Edited 4 December, 2017 by krigl

[conn]

If you do have a boost leak, how does it make the RPM rise ahead of "normal" curve?

 

I have OBDEleven as well - how do you look at the misfire counter? Only thing I can do is monitor "LIVE data". I have played around with that dongle and have only seen one misfire when cold and taping gas just a little.

 

And do you happen to know if it is possible to check errors what have already happened? The only thing I can do is scan and see if there are problems or not. Why I ask is because I saw some central locking temp sensor problem which went away after I scaned the car 2 weeks later (I did not clear codes)? If you scan the second time it will clear them anyway?

 

For notes I can't seem to find clutch pressure, real value on my DQ200. This should be real clamping force.

 

[krigl]

It is not such a big loss of pressure, the turbo is capable to replace the lost air, but the waste-gate must be closed longer to achieve this. And this messes up things then.

 

I have the pro version of the OBDeleven and can access everything. Engine->Live data->Search for cylinder 1[2,3,4] misfire counter.

DTC codes should stay if not cleared, maybe you have by accident hit the large circle to clear codes the last time, I did this also first time.

[ettlz]

Any further development on the engine mount hypothesis?

[krigl]

Visit to another dealer service produced this result:

 

- they are 1000% that mounts are OK.

- Official reason why the slips occur is due to moisture and the fact that clutch material absorbs moisture, hence problem goes away when enough heat is produced by clutches. This is a official answer. I had a look at their system when service advisor got reply from Skoda, saw it with my own eyes sadly. 

 

I do not agree with both answers, and am going my own way on this, I am fed up with Skoda and I do not care about warranty any more.

 

As for mounts hypothesis... At this point I don't have them tighten down, but will be purchasing the stiffer dogbone engine mount somewhere in the future. I tested it and it was better with stiffer mounts, for sure I will slowly do something permanent. But the money is tight at the moment, so I have to wait. Other more life important things are on schedule right now.

[Rooted]

The same DQ200 7 speed Twin Dry Clutch with different software are good at over 200 hp and more than the 250Nm that Skoda / VW use them too.

Some engines give a big bit of movement on the OEM engine mounts and people do uprate, but some give is a good thing IMO.

 

Official word about moisture on the dry clutches sounds just so much VW Bull Sh!t as usual.

 

 

[GeneralPurpose]

Since the start of this thread I've been intrigued to find others who have experienced this clutch slip on the dq200. But so far have failed to do so. My dealer has no experience of anyone complaining of this issue either. My nephew who specialises in vag cars at his own garage hasn't experienced problems with any dsg yet. I don't doubt krig has an issue though. Speaking as an ex-tech you can see just how awkward it can be for techs to track a problem like this. Neither of the dq200 boxes in the cars I've had, and still have, had any issues at all. All the techs I know who are vag trained say the box is one of the best out there and is actually problem free and has been since the MK3 Fabia was realeased. Only minor software updates have been required to the box ECU. So the op is right to look elsewhere for the issue. Good luck and keep posting on this if you will.

Edited 8 January, 2018 by Estate Man

[krigl]

The last tech that has been on a drive with me reproduced this issue,and has been kind enough to go through this with me for almost an hour of our time. I have to give credit to him for effort, but skoda has turned me down. You can find a lot of people with exact same problem on denmark vw forum vagcars.dk i think. Hard to google translate tho...

[krigl]

As for mounts... It mainly goes down to provide comfort to driver, but most racing applications use stiff ones to eliminate wheel hop for example. 

 

Based on my testing, the dsg gearchanges are a whole different thing if they are stiff. Better IMO. 

[Rooted]

Lets get it right.

2.4 Million or so DQ200 in the World Wide recall 2012, not including those not in the World just Europe getting a Service Campaign.

So mineral oil instead of synthetic and a software update.

Then still 2013-2015 issues and a Service Campaign on some and a Software update.

 

Skoda have built 2 million DQ200 or so in the past few years and some have issues, 

so no idea if all UK Technicians or just the ones that Estateman knows are Tommy.  Deaf, Dumb & Blind, but there are some problems/

 

There are several members here had DQ200 DSG problems in Mk3 Fabia, and some in the UK.

 

Maybe all good now as 2018,  time will tell.

Edited 8 January, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[MadsB]

16 minutes ago, Estate Man said:

Since the start of this thread I've been intrigued to find others who have experienced this clutch slip on the dq200. But so far have failed to do so. My dealer has no experience of anyone complaining of this issue either. My nephew who specialises in vag cars at his own garage hasn't experienced problems with any dsg yet. I don't doubt krig has an issue though. Speaking as an ex-tech you can see just how awkward it can be for techs to track a problem like this. Neither of the dq200 boxes in the cars I've had, and still have, had any issues at all. All the techs I know who are vag trained say the box is one of the best out there and is actually problem free and has been since the MK3 Fabia was realeased. Only minor software updates have been required to the box ECU. So the op is right to look elsewhere for the issue. Good luck and keep posting on this if you will.

 Look here and tell me what you see ?

 

Edited 8 January, 2018 by MadsB

[MadsB]

Estate man..... Read here in the Danish vag-forum.

Use Google translate 

http://vagcars.dk/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=117621

[GeneralPurpose]

2 hours ago, AwaoffSki said:

Lets get it right.

2.4 Million or so DQ200 in the World Wide recall 2012, not including those not in the World just Europe getting a Service Campaign.

So mineral oil instead of synthetic and a software update.

Then still 2013-2015 issues and a Service Campaign on some and a Software update.

 

Skoda have built 2 million DQ200 or so in the past few years and some have issues, 

so no idea if all UK Technicians or just the ones that Estateman knows are Tommy.  Deaf, Dumb & Blind, but there are some problems/

 

There are several members here had DQ200 DSG problems in Mk3 Fabia, and some in the UK.

 

Maybe all good now as 2018,  time will tell.

 

Yes I'm aware of the earlier issues, which frankly were not that big a deal from a technical point of view. All sorted. But the clutch slip issue is the one that interests me. I haven't yet met anyone with the issue in spite of extensive enquiries within the trade and amongst friends and family (we all have Skoda Fabia DSG's of all years). Mines a 2017 DSG. Two months ago I stripped a 2014 DSG on a VRS to replace two bearings and fit a new clutch pack. It's an easy box to work on and a clever design. It was the first full strip on a DSG that I've done. That box had covered 120,000+ miles in spite of the owner using the throttle as a switch!...lol.

[Rooted]

So hopefully your Extensive enquiries will have enabled you to answer this.

Which plant were the DQ200 that those are complaining about produced in?

[GeneralPurpose]

Please do tell...

[Rooted]

I would not be asking if i knew, i never did extensive inquiries, i just talk to Master techs that do know of the issues, 

go on the training courses, read the TPI's, and fix the cars.

ŠKODA Vrchlabí plant_ 500,000th DQ 200 transmission - ŠKODA.mhtml

28 variants of the DQ200.

ŠKODA produces 1.5 millionth DQ 200 dual-clutch transmission at Vrchlabí plant - ŠKODA Storyboard.mhtml

Edited 8 January, 2018 by AwaoffSki