Wireless heating controls

[fabiamk2SE]

31 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

Big hint - not everyone lives in a new build "Barrett Box".  Oh and see:-

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/thermostat.png

 

I know, i go in probably an average of 4 houses a day sorting different aspects of heating or gas related things, plus installing (:  

[Aspman]

17 hours ago, fabiamk2SE said:

 

Can't they update using the wifi connection which they use anyway to connect to your phone? 

 

 

 

It's not the process of updating that will be problem it'll be the willingness of the manufacturer to keep maintaining the device.

 

Most IOT devices are effectively abandoned at birth.

 

So you buy your new thing and it works great. Then you get a new phone and it doesn't work for whatever reason, maybe there is no new app version. What do you do? Keep an old phone around just to work your thermostat?

 

This is an old story and about TVs but the principle is the same. It'll affect everything that is shiny and connected - https://conversation.which.co.uk/technology/smart-tv-software-support-commitment-issues-bbc-iplayer-netflix/

[fabdavrav]

OK  various topics covered...

 

Fit TRVs to all rads except the place where the main thermostat is to be sited.

 

Thermostat out of direct draught & is just a two wire on/off switch...that's all the input the boiler can take...to fire or not to fire....then its down to the boiler temp setting fro the hot supply water for the rads, etc.

 

I would strongly advise setting this to no more than 65c to 70c......beyond that the water in the rads gets too hot & the boilers are out of the very efficient zone of operation...

 

Forget wireless..I would strongly recommend getting one with "weather compensation" which would require at a basic level a sensor on the outside north face of the building....I have had this type of system for the past 23yrs...

 

What WB boiler is it model year/etc..

 

[fabiamk2SE]

11 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

 

I would strongly advise setting this to no more than 65c to 70c......beyond that the water in the rads gets too hot & the boilers are out of the very efficient zone of operation...

 

That used to be the case but with mosern condensing boilers its actually more efficient to run the thermostat on the boiler high. 

 

The higher it is, the hotter it gets, the more it condenses, making it more efficient. Also.. then the quicker the rooms are up to temperature and the sooner the boiler turns off (:  

[fabiamk2SE]

11 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

 

Forget wireless..I would strongly recommend getting one with "weather compensation" which would require at a basic level a sensor on the outside north face of the building....I have had this type of system for the past 23yrs...

 

 

 

Some of the wireless ones have weather compensators built in. 

 

It doesnt use an old fashioned sensor on the outside wall anymore.. they simply just get their info off the internet. 

[fabdavrav]

1 hour ago, fabiamk2SE said:

 

That used to be the case but with mosern condensing boilers its actually more efficient to run the thermostat on the boiler high. 

 

The higher it is, the hotter it gets, the more it condenses, making it more efficient. Also.. then the quicker the rooms are up to temperature and the sooner the boiler turns off (:  

 

Not quite right..condensing boilers make there max power at lower temps than older boilers....that's the whole point of "condensing"...

 

Just quickly quoting from WB tech data on plain jane boilers. Max rated heat output net occurs at 40/30c....wack it up to 80/60c & its less..

 

You do however have to consider if the boiler also does HW ...mine does my indirect DHW & to protect against legionella I have it set circa 55-60C so the boiler needs to be higher than this.

 

Anyway most heating systems are now/should be designed with way lower delta T than years go so the requirement for 80C plus it not needed.

 

1 hour ago, fabiamk2SE said:

 

Some of the wireless ones have weather compensators built in. 

 

It doesnt use an old fashioned sensor on the outside wall anymore.. they simply just get their info off the internet. 

 

That's a waste of time, the weather stations the internet gets the info from are at least 30mins drive (over 16miles) from me & different environment...

 

 

Edited 14 November, 2017 by fabdavrav

[fabiamk2SE]

35 minutes ago, fabdavrav said:

 

Not quite right..condensing boilers make there max power at lower temps than older boilers....that's the whole point of "condensing"...not steam making....

 

Just quickly quoting from WB tech data on plain jane boilers. Max rated heat output net occurs at 40/30c....wack it up to 80/60c & its less..

 

You do however have to consider if the boiler also does HW ...mine does my indirect DHW & to protect against legionella I have it set circa 55-60C so the boiler needs to be higher than this.

 

Anyway most heating systems are now/should be designed with way lower delta T than years go so the requirement for 80C plus it not needed.

 

 

That's a waste of time, the weather stations the internet gets the info from are at least 30mins drive from me & different environment...

 

 

We’ve been here before and im not educating you any further about something you ‘think’ you know about but are actually qualified in none of it. 

 

Have a good day

[fabdavrav]

23 minutes ago, fabiamk2SE said:

 

We’ve been here before and im not educating you any further about something you ‘think’ you know about but are actually qualified in none of it. 

 

Have a good day

Condensing boilers require the return loop temp to be below 57C to enable condensing

 

Most heating system designs are for low delta temps now 

 

20yrs ago the usual standard design was 85c flow/75c return/20c room... 60 Delta T...high boiler temps

 

now the usual design is 65c flow/ 55c return/ 20c room...40 Delta T.........low boiler temps to make most use of the condensing efficiency..

 

& some stuff is 55/45/20...30 Delta T

 

That's not my opinions, these are industry facts, go ask/look up any boiler maker, or rad maker....they'll say the same, setting the boiler to a high temp setting it NOT advisable, 65c  to 70c max (flow) is all that is required to keep the boiler in condensing mode & to prevent "cycling".

 

 

Disprove the well known industry facts, instead of insulting...

Edited 14 November, 2017 by fabdavrav

[fabdavrav]

11 minutes ago, fabiamk2SE said:

 

Problem is with that your heating is going to be on longer (so using more gas) and depending on radiator sizes and other factors, the room might not get warm enough. 

 

Im not insulting anybody.. its fact. You arent qualified in much but you buzz around all the different threads giving it the know all. 

 

"You arent qualified in much but you buzz around all the different threads giving it the know all"

 

So what exactly do you know about my qualifications & experience then??

 

You actually do not consume more gas you consume less...having the boiler ticking over & working at max condensing mode is far better than having spikes of huge gas usage with the boiler operating outwith the condensing mode.

 

Again not my opinions, I am quoting basic heating design facts..go ask any boiler or rad manufacture......

 

Prove these facts wrong instead of resorting to personal insults.

[fabiamk2SE]

59 minutes ago, fabdavrav said:

 

"You arent qualified in much but you buzz around all the different threads giving it the know all"

 

So what exactly do you know about my qualifications & experience then??

 

You actually do not consume more gas you consume less...having the boiler ticking over & working at max condensing mode is far better than having spikes of huge gas usage with the boiler operating outwith the condensing mode.

 

Again not my opinions, I am quoting basic heating design facts..go ask any boiler or rad manufacture......

 

Prove these facts wrong instead of resorting to personal insults.

 

I should take up fishin, getting bites like that  

 

how are the boilers you installed whilst not being on the Gas Safe register by the way? 

Edited 14 November, 2017 by fabiamk2SE

[fabdavrav]

2 hours ago, fabiamk2SE said:

 

 

how are the boilers you installed whilst not being on the Gas Safe register by the way? 

 

Fine considering they were checked thoroughly by the owner of a long established plumbing heating (commercial & domestic) company, three of his plumbers, & a bloke from Worcester Bosch, & they all approved & admired what I had done.

[fabiamk2SE]

Just now, fabdavrav said:

 

Fine considering they were checked thoroughly by the owner of a long established plumbing heating (commercial & domestic) company, three of his plumbers, & a bloke from Worcester Bosch, & they all approved & admired what I had done.

 

It's the suspended sentences, massive fines and community service penalties that impress me 

[fabdavrav]

8 minutes ago, fabiamk2SE said:

 

It's the suspended sentences, massive fines and community service penalties that impress me 

 

I suggest you report them & me then.

 

I'll quite happily have any number of Corgi, Gas Safe, etc. head blokes inspect my work. 

 

[fabiamk2SE]

Just now, fabdavrav said:

 

I suggest you report them & me then.

 

I'll quite happily have any number of Corgi, Gas Safe, etc. head blokes inspect my work. 

 

 

I do. I've reported a few. 

 

whether or not you think your work is satisfactory or not isn't relevant. Just for doing the work and not being qualified to do so leaves you in serious ****. 

[Breezy_Pete]

The heating at my workplace wasn't working this morning when I got in.  Turns out the wireless, battery-powered thermostat had no battery power left. No battery-low warning apparently.

Brilliant system...

[fabiamk2SE]

3 minutes ago, Wino said:

The heating at my workplace wasn't working this morning when I got in.  Turns out the wireless, battery-powered thermostat had no battery power left. No battery-low warning apparently.

Brilliant system...

 

Some do have a low warning light but some don't. 

 

Struggle to charge the old dears for replacement of those...

 

Can sometimes be a little fussy to reconnect once they've been replaced mind. Not very often, but the odd one. 

[Breezy_Pete]

Gonna just set a calendar reminder to change the batteries next November, I reckon.  It did sort itself out OK once it was re-juiced.

[VWD]

On 11/14/2017 at 18:19, fabiamk2SE said:

 

Struggle to charge the old dears for replacement of those...

 

 

I know how you feel.

Working for myself, I took on a few jobs as a subbie. One job was to replace a telephone socket that had been mounted too low on a wall and little old lady in her granny flat had bashed it with her Hoover. I replaced it with a warning as I couldn't move it out of reach of Hoover and she gave me the fee the shop had quoted her for. I called it in and was told that that was my fee. I did try to refund it or at least a good bit of it, but madam was too proud. I did feel totally guilty.

[fabiamk2SE]

10 hours ago, VWD said:

I know how you feel.

Working for myself, I took on a few jobs as a subbie. One job was to replace a telephone socket that had been mounted too low on a wall and little old lady in her granny flat had bashed it with her Hoover. I replaced it with a warning as I couldn't move it out of reach of Hoover and she gave me the fee the shop had quoted her for. I called it in and was told that that was my fee. I did try to refund it or at least a good bit of it, but madam was too proud. I did feel totally guilty.

 

 

Oo i know mate. Its not easy is it. They often end up with smaller jobs alot cheaper than anyone else. 

 

They're always the best payers though, straight up. Those n people with hardly any money. The ones that are loaded often need chasing... 

[Rustynuts]

Customer yesterday...

 

I'd fitted a wireless room stat last year for her mother (just a simple room stat but no programming function) and she was over the moon with it. Yesterday I went to her fathers house (he'd just died) and repaired the boiler, and she asked if I could fit the same type of wireless stat in that house too. I said I'd need to order it and then be about an hour to fit it. She said "Could you just post it through the letter box next time you're passing?"

 

I explained that even though the room stat was wireless it still needed the receiver wiring in at the boiler end so it would actually work...

[fabiamk2SE]

36 minutes ago, Rustynuts said:

Customer yesterday...

 

I'd fitted a wireless room stat last year for her mother (just a simple room stat but no programming function) and she was over the moon with it. Yesterday I went to her fathers house (he'd just died) and repaired the boiler, and she asked if I could fit the same type of wireless stat in that house too. I said I'd need to order it and then be about an hour to fit it. She said "Could you just post it through the letter box next time you're passing?"

 

I explained that even though the room stat was wireless it still needed the receiver wiring in at the boiler end so it would actually work...

 

 

What, you mean you dont just take it out the box, and look at it for an hour and it connects to the boiler?  

[VWD]

On large telecom installations, I often was asked "how do you know where all the wires go ", possibly something central heating blokes get now ( or where do all the pipes go, version). No doubt our lurking Openreach man gets asked this when not in the van with a brew and choccie biccies.

However, I do feel very guilty of giving in to Swimbo and boxing in the lower part of the Combi INSTALLATION. To, me, the art of plumbing is a joy to behold, and this installation should be featured in an art gallery.

 

[dg360]

We have individual eTRVs on each radiator and then a central control box to set schedules.  About a month after I got it I enquired if it could control the boiler - no.  So I reverse engineered the protocol for the eTRVs (horrific hex based monstrosity).  For the last couple of years a raspberry PI has polled the valve position of each eTRV every 5 mins.  When any are more than n% open it demands heat from the boiler (zwave controller).

In the mornings the bedrooms heat first, then these lower down to 17c for the day.  The the downstairs is heated so that they are warm.  As we are all out of the house most days, the whole house then stays at 17c.  In the evening before we get home the eTRVs go up to 20c downstairs and a little while later the kids bedrooms start to ask for heat ready for bed time.  Our bedroom later on.  Downstairs drops down to 17c overnight and the bedrooms at 18.5c.

In short - we preferentially heat the rooms where we will be but we don't drop the temperature in the unused rooms too much.  The house previously suffered from some condensation in the bay windows, it hasn't since we switched to this approach.  

 

Yep - too complex.  I like this stuff so it's ok  but I can see why people are put off.

[fabdavrav]

28 minutes ago, dg360 said:

 

In short - we preferentially heat the rooms where we will be but we don't drop the temperature in the unused rooms too much.  The house previously suffered from some condensation in the bay windows, it hasn't since we switched to this approach.  

 

 

Again you point out the obvious which a lot of people don't see....turning off the heating or down to low in unused rooms. They don't realise that that cold room causes the surrounding rooms to lose their heat into that room, via the walls etc due to the temp diff between the rooms & the wall between.

 

Like people think its good to turn the heating (standard building regs system) OFF at night...it won't turn ON until the next programme & the boiler will only turn ON if the water in the boiler gets to +5C (anti frost stat).

 

Having huge spikes in the internal temps cause masses of problems & with interstitial condensation....The weather compensating system I have is based on the previous one I had which was installed in '94. Thing is this type of system has been common in German commercial stuff for decades...

 

I have separate "night" & "day" temps & the night is 14C, day 19C..& now in winter it comes on at night..mind you its -2C ATM at night...all done using digital temp sensors & 6 all told in the system

[SWBoy]

12 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

I have separate "night" & "day" temps & the night is 14C, day 19C..& now in winter it comes on at night.

For many years (since at least 1998 in 3 different homes) I've used commercially available programmable thermostats with 6 time/temperature settings per day which can be different for each day of the week.

 

Allows the temperature to be controlled 24/7 based on when we're at home, and you don't need to build/design/test your own system. It's nt as efficient as the multi-zone systems, but is a darn sight better than an on/off mechanical thermostat.