UPDATED 25.6.18 - 3.6 car - whirring/buzzing from engine area...thoughts

[Wile7]

Hi folks.

 

My lovely 3.6 has just begun to have its first issue. It's a mild metallic whirring/buzzing sound almost like the noise I used to get from pegging bits of card to my bike wheel as a kid (yes, I lnow...but hopefully some of you will get what I mean...).

 

The noise rises and falls with revs and the car drives fine. My initial thoughts:

 

Idler pully

alternator pulley

fuel pump??

one of the ancillary pulley things

DSG issue (6 sp wet box) but Ihope not

 

As I said, car drives fine.....110,000 kms

 

Thoughts please?

Ta muchly,

 

Dave

[Danny 57]

You say that the noise rises and falls with the revs. Does that include when it is in neutral.

[Wile7]

Hi Danny. I've had a chance to drive it more and listen today. In essence, the noise comes on under load i.e when accelerating but does not seem to be there under deceleration. When in neutral, no noise.....

 

It doesn't seem to be tied that much to the revs either although there is a slight rise and fall under acceleration. Tried to listen with screwdriver handle etc but no undue noise when stationary and running in neutral...Its getting worse each day though (sound wise) but car still drives smoothly.

 

So I'm thinking fuel pump possibly?

 

Dave

[dg360]

Could you make a recording of the noise?  Could the engine be shifting under load, which in turn is allowing the exhaust system to rattle against something that it normally doesn't touch?

[DEL80Y]

Dual Mass flywheel ???

Post

Edited 15 November, 2017 by DEL80Y

[bigjohn]

1 hour ago, DEL80Y said:

Dual Mass flywheel ???

Post

 

Good point, seconded /\/\/\/\

 

I had wondered about one of the cam chains, but I think this engine is reliable in that department 

 

[Wile7]

Hi gents. Update. Local garage think it is the timing chain, or more specifically, a failed pulley or chain guide.

 

I'm unsure because he (my car) only has 104,000kms on it and at idle there is no unusual noise, but it has got a bit worse today on the drive to work.

 

The mechanic I spoke with at the garage showed me photos of his own 3.2 Audi engine in bits (he loves the VAG petrol cars) and had the same issue with a failed 'plastic' guide for the chain....VAG know about some sub-spec components apparently but like many things its all hush hush.

 

I've read up a bit and there is much talk about certain 2009/2010 bits and bobs failing on VAG V6 petrol units....the flip side is that there are many 3.6 cars here running with the Suisse Gendarme with over 350,000 kms on them (but serviced weekly I imagine...IYKWIM).

 

Saga continues....but I've parked mine up for the moment just in case (until I make a decision).

 

Thoughts on a postcard please?

[bigjohn]

2 hours ago, Wile7 said:

Hi gents. Update. Local garage think it is the timing chain, or more specifically, a failed pulley or chain guide.

 

I'm unsure because he (my car) only has 104,000kms on it and at idle there is no unusual noise, but it has got a bit worse today on the drive to work.

 

The mechanic I spoke with at the garage showed me photos of his own 3.2 Audi engine in bits (he loves the VAG petrol cars) and had the same issue with a failed 'plastic' guide for the chain....VAG know about some sub-spec components apparently but like many things its all hush hush.

 

I've read up a bit and there is much talk about certain 2009/2010 bits and bobs failing on VAG V6 petrol units....the flip side is that there are many 3.6 cars here running with the Suisse Gendarme with over 350,000 kms on them (but serviced weekly I imagine...IYKWIM).

 

Saga continues....but I've parked mine up for the moment just in case (until I make a decision).

 

Thoughts on a postcard please?

 

I'd stop driving for potential chain or DMF faults. Either could give way (or even jump in the case of the chain) any time.

 

Can you tell if the noise comes from the front or the rear of the engine?

 

Edited 16 November, 2017 by bigjohn

[spk]

4 hours ago, Wile7 said:

Hi gents. Update. Local garage think it is the timing chain, or more specifically, a failed pulley or chain guide.

 

I'm unsure because he (my car) only has 104,000kms on it and at idle there is no unusual noise, but it has got a bit worse today on the drive to work.

 

The mechanic I spoke with at the garage showed me photos of his own 3.2 Audi engine in bits (he loves the VAG petrol cars) and had the same issue with a failed 'plastic' guide for the chain....VAG know about some sub-spec components apparently but like many things its all hush hush.

 

I've read up a bit and there is much talk about certain 2009/2010 bits and bobs failing on VAG V6 petrol units....the flip side is that there are many 3.6 cars here running with the Suisse Gendarme with over 350,000 kms on them (but serviced weekly I imagine...IYKWIM).

 

Saga continues....but I've parked mine up for the moment just in case (until I make a decision).

 

Thoughts on a postcard please?

 

Don't think I have much useful to add other than I'm very interested in what you find out, particularly as I'm less than 1900 miles from the next service which will also be a major and the 100,000 mile service.... I'm keen to pre-empt any mechanical issues if there's better replacements available

[Wile7]

On 16/11/2017 at 21:36, bigjohn said:

 

I'd stop driving for potential chain or DMF faults. Either could give way (or even jump in the case of the chain) any time.

 

Can you tell if the noise comes from the front or the rear of the engine?

 

 

Hi Big John (and SPK)....seems to be rear. I’ve done quite a bit of research and two things are possible.

 

One is an oil pin/bolt that can fail and ultimately it can shear off (!) but it’s on early vw cars pre skoda superb fitment.

 

Second is a failed chain guide/tension thing (plastic) that is not the end of the world but obviously needs replacing. Engine and gearbox out etc. it seems. There is an apparent law suit (Google link here: https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2016/volkswagen-timing-chain-tensioner-lawsuit.shtml) against vag in the good old USA (may 2016) stating that the company knew about a possible failure on a certain part....affects a very few 2009-2015 chain driven cars (Passats, Audi’s etc)  but obviously not Skoda Superb as the car was not sold there....but same engine.

 

And the part fails at 65000 miles (I’m on 104000 Kim’s or 64700 ish miles). Just unlucky (or lucky if I’ve caught it in time). Cost is the issue as I’m anxious this is going to be a 5000+ chf fix and Switzerland ain’t cheap at around £150 hr Labour (non franchise). I’m tempted to have a go myself as I just don’t have that kind of cash but I need to rent a garage etc. 

 

It could also also be the beginning of a dmf failure (delaminating if you know what I mean) or something....

 

I am puzzled though because at idle it’s normal.....no rattle at all. But then when you accelerate, I imagine the chain tensions a bit and if the tensioner/guide has failed the chain will just flail a bit....I don’t think chain has stretched...not old enough.

 

Anyway, Im keeping the car though - love it to bits - I’m just unlucky. Most of the chain driven 3.6 cars are bullet proof and this issue seems to affect 1.8tsi engines on Post 2012 cars more, not the 3.6.

 

Will update once I know more....maybe it’s just a spanner I left from a previous tinker that’s dropped down onto the bell housing

 

Dave

 

 

[bigjohn]

5 hours ago, Wile7 said:

 

Hi Big John (and SPK)....seems to be rear. I’ve done quite a bit of research and two things are possible.

 

 

 

 

Noise at the rear points to DMF as I think the cam chains are all at the front of the engine on this engine  (unlike the earlier  VAG 4 cylinder 16v that used to have cam belt at the front and cam->cam chain at the rear!).

 

With the engine running and someone operating the throttle to trigger the noise  position your head just above the top of the engine with one ear pointing towards the bellhousing and the other toward the fornt of the engine to try and detect where thoe noise is coming from. In the past I've used a microphone module (EDIT - seem to be called a microphone capsule these days) on a stick to do this sort of thing with a simple amp (BC109c transistor and 1.5v battery) and padded headphones 

 

Dual Mass Flywheels are a complex device which contain lots of cogs and springs and can fail in many different ways - including disintegrating and taking the gearbox bellhousing out - especially with powerful torquey engines

 

If cam chains are in a bad way they usually trigger an Engine Managent Light due to changing timing although if one of the plastic tensioners has partially disintegrated this may not be the case  (although beware bits of plastic blocking oilways and strainers)

 

 

 

Edited 18 November, 2017 by bigjohn

[DEL80Y]

This cheap but very useful tool   can help pinpoint where most of the noise is coming from..

[Snapper1725]

Watch a few clips on YouTube out of curiosity as I’ve never had a car with a Timing chain. Unsure if I’ve watched with the same engine but found it strange that a lot have the timing chains at the rear of the engine

just seems like a money making ploy.

Timing chain fault, while it’s out i’ll Put a new clutch in.

Clutch faulty, should I do timing chain while in bits ??.

Like the old Vauxhall’s when you could change clutch without taking the gearbox out. That soon changed

[roynhayley]

5 hours ago, DEL80Y said:

This cheap but very useful tool   can help pinpoint where most of the noise is coming from..

In my old skool days as a "helper" in my local garage the mechanics swore by long screwdriver pushed against the noisy bit and then put your ear against the handle. I have used this to good effect in pin pointing noise in the past, I would assume that you have  along screwdriver, and of course the sense to keep yourself away from the moving parts, in the case of the DMF I would us several socket extensions, this method amplifies the vibration through a solid medium. it will not cure the problem but you could find the source of the noise and then define an action plan............Good luck!!!

[bigjohn]

9 hours ago, DEL80Y said:

eThis cheap but very useful tool   can help pinpoint where most of the noise is coming from..

 

Great,

 

I've ordered one - even though I don't need it yet - as it's cheap as chips.

 

Cheap modern version of what I made years ago - which diagnosed a failing fibre wheel on a Ford Essex V6 in a Ford Zodiac (equivalent of cam belt/chain failure).

 

[Wile7]

Thank you for all the advice and replies gents.

 

It looks like a failed chain tensioner sadly so I’ve given the go ahead to drop everything out and take a look....replace everything chain related and, if needed, the DMF and clutch (will try to find some upgrade goodies as we go...). That’s this years Christmas/birthday fund gone (and next years as well....).

 

Sadly, because it’s still on a lease plan, I am unable to have a go myself (unless I pay off the lease because it would be invalidated if I meddle apparently....) which is a costly pain as we recently moved house and now have a decent sized garage where I could do the work. Sod’s law.

 

I’ll keep you posted with updates and photos as the work is done - at least the mechanic is an enthusiast for the V6 Petrol cars.....fingers crossed.

 

Dave

[spk]

Commiserations Dave, at least you've found a mechanic who's an enthusiast for the vr6!

 

17 hours ago, Wile7 said:

It looks like a failed chain tensioner sadly so I’ve given the go ahead to drop everything out and take a look....replace everything chain related and, if needed, the DMF and clutch (will try to find some upgrade goodies as we go...). That’s this years Christmas/birthday fund gone (and next years as well....).

 

I have to say, without a fault light or obvious power delivery issues I've no idea how you would know the clutch needed work with a DSG box. Still, if there's a big labour charge and the engine etc. is out I guess it makes sense to ask them to take a look...?

 

Cheers,

Steve

[Wile7]

That’s the point Steve.....clutch will go only if there is evidence visually that it needs changing. Car drove fine. If I can get another 150,000 or so out of it I won’t bother. They are strong bits of kit and will do 350,000 plus Kim’s on one clutch with the 6sp wet DSG box.  Your point about the cost of everything out is the only reason I’d consider it. Well see.....

 

Dave

[Wile7]

Well.....got car back. Engine all fixed and issues there sorted. Top chain had stretched (see photo) due to failed sprocket bearing thingy (tensioners were fine) but everything replaced just while we were there...

 

Problem is I now have (the garage thinks....) Mechatronic failure which is a bit weird because it was fine before....new oil and filter in gearbox might have highlighted the issue....so next part of the saga continues. Watch this space.....

 

Dave

[Wile7]

Car now back and running beautifully. Issue was not a mechatronic failure but a reassembly issue...thankfully no damage but I have a two year (yes, two year...) warranty on the work (a CarXpert garage?).  The car is under a lease so not allowed to do it myself (or I could but I have to pay the lease off....).

 

Anyway, fingers crossed all is good....now my wallet is 5000chf lighter (£3800)  They charge 180 chf an hour labour here (£140)....barstewards!

 

As an aside, I now have a cool box of bits which I can show the kids at school in the workshops (and then I might turn them into a Briskoda Sculpture of some kind...  )

 

Onwards and upwards.....

 

Dave

[vborovic]

Read this post with interest, since I have the same engine, and hope I won't have to do the same in the near future ... as for the labor cost, that's pretty expensive, in Croatia the 3rd tier works (the most expensive ones) are at most 30 GBP, and that in the Authorized Skoda Dealer's workshops, other garages are cheaper ...

[Wile7]

12 hours ago, vborovic said:

Read this post with interest, since I have the same engine, and hope I won't have to do the same in the near future ... as for the labor cost, that's pretty expensive, in Croatia the 3rd tier works (the most expensive ones) are at most 30 GBP, and that in the Authorized Skoda Dealer's workshops, other garages are cheaper ...

 

Yeah....that's Switzerland for you.....

[spk]

I’m glad you got it sorted out @Wile7 but that price is a little painful. I’ll be going to Switzerland in 2020...better start saving now!

 

It’s quire fascinating seeing the engine out - certainly a big old lump!

 

So none of the parts that failed on your engine have a preventative maintenance service interval? I’m pretty sure the chain is inspection only and has been since the days of the 2.8 and 2.9 versions in the Golf and Corrado VR6! I guess that makes sense as it’s not going to degrade like belt but will wear over time.

 

What I would be really interested to know is if the garage inspected the inlet manifold for carbon build-up and what they found. It seems to be a problem that’s affected the FSI engines over time, particularly the 8 cylinder 4.2 used in some earlier Audi models. I’ve no idea how widespread the problem might be as it’s usually the people who’ve had a problem that post on owner forums about it and I’m not sure how close it is to the vr6 but as I’ve just ticked over 100k miles, I’m quite interested to know if it’s likely to be affected at some point!

 

Cheers,

Steve

[Wile7]

Hi Steve - inlet manifiold as clean as a whistle and to be honest the engine looked brand new given that it has approx 70k miles on it.  These V6's are generally bullet proof - I've just been unlucky. I've posted elsewhere but the Swiss Gendarme run V6 3.6 cars up past 350k kms without issue (they are now phasing out the 3.6 and moving on to 280's or the Opel/Vauxhall Insignia 2.8 awd OPC things)

 

You moving here to live or work or both? It's expensive for sure and you need a decent salary to cover those living expenditures. At the end of a month, in all seriousness, on a par with the UK once all the bills, insurance and things are seen through. Both my wife and I work here so that makes it doable - one salary a bit tough unless you are on a ,good' package. PM me if you have any questions - been here 4 years now (in Vaud, midway between Lausanne and Geneva).

 

Real bugger (back to the car...) was that two weeks after the engine work I got a nasty gearbox noise...thinking the worst (mechatronic etc.) it was returned.....

 

....Very long story short, a bearing on a shaft failed as the car was not 'reassembled' properly 

 

Another 4000chf for a rebuilt gearbox (Clutch looked new still and was not changed - my call) BUT I have not paid for it as the garage admitted that they had done something wrong. I have all the replaced parts (engine and gearbox) and it's all been very amicable - just a PITA.

 

I have my car back now, running wonderfully with warranty on all the work and basically a 'newish' car mechanically. I love him/her/it so will just run it in to the ground now. Lease ends this summer so I can start to play with things....spied the exhaust I've been after for a while on the www (I discovered that you can't change much on a lease here in Swiss....otherwise they get arsy) so fun times ahead with luck.

 

Dave

 

 

[Wile7]

Well, it's been a while, and I have had to look at the heavy hand of legal threats, BUT after a protracted and long drawn out 'tooing and froing' we have reached an outcome and also highlighted some key facts.

 

Car went to an official dealership (my cost at first...with all the removed bits...) to get a full check out. Engine/Gearbox out, full check on the work done. Long story short....

 

Initial diagnosis by independent (but 'CarXpert' approved garage) was incorrect. 

 

Tensioner was actually fine 

Timing chain had indeed stretched a bit but not as much as in the photo shown above and within tolerance (photo not true...)

Gearbox was the issue with a failed main bearing on the input/output shaft - that was the noise and vibration.

Mechatronic and actual 'DSG' unit etc. all fine.

 

So, a reasonably short meeting resulted in admitting that they had mis-diagnosed the original issue (it happens). One lot of work (initial engine, tensioner replacement etc. was not required....and the two lots of engine/gearbox in and out (labour costs) not fair...)

 

Ended up paying for cost of fixing the faulty bearing and related labour (about £1500 in converted Swiss money) and, this is the good bit, ALL OTHER COSTS refunded including the original charge plus the £2000 approx. - in CHF - I paid to get a main dealer to take things out and check things.

 

Quite a drawn out scenario (considering this all happened in November 2017...) but I now have my car back, with partly rebuilt engine and gearbox with two year warranty and it's cost me £1500.

 

Apologies to any who read this originally and maybe got 'scare mongered' about the 3.6 unit. As I have posted elsewhere, the engine is a great reliable lump, and the bearing issue I had on the input shaft an 'unusual fail' (dealer words).  DSG 6sp wet unit a decent, reliable unit too.

 

Phew  - thanks for reading this far and hope the update clarifies things a bit. Despite all this nonsense it has not dampened my enthusiasm or fondness of the Skoda Marque - the Superb 3.6 awd (in estate guise) is a stonking used value passenger express IMHO  

 

Dave