Totally unscientific winter tyre test

[aka_pseudonym]

Totally unscientific winter tyre test

 

This is maybe pointless, potentially dangerous in the wrong hands, but might be interesting if pictures were posted results.  I'm not responsible if ditches are entered into, plus every other disclaimer going.

 

I posted about this before but - in a nutshell - I understand M+S tyres are so designated because the sides of the cuts/moulds for the tread aren't parallel, they flare out from the bottom upwards.  It makes it harder for mud, snow etc to be trapped in the grooves.  I also understand all winter tyres are also M+S tyres, the added difference is that their compound allows them to stay flexible at lower temperatures.

 

So M+S or winter tyres should chuck out anything stuck in their tread as they rotate, so the tread is nice and empty for the next pass.  Back to my post the other day.  I marshal when WRC teams test near me and this is Citroen last year.  Kris Meeke had run the WRC DS3 the day before in the wet and churned up the stage - see gif below. (Actually that's Breen on a dry bit but they both come from the island of Ireland so drive the same!)

 

So the next day I'm heading to my position in a Subaru, my M+S tyre gets sliced, I carry on anyway as it's obviously wrecked, and the pic below was taken as I was changing the wheel.

 

Back to the unscientific test.  If you look at that picture - that's the offside rear wheel (RHD) - you can see the inside of the wheel arch is well coated.  But so is the edge of the wheel arch on the right of the pic where a bit of the rear door is visible.  That way is forwards.  And you can see that the mud and stone hasn't been chucked backwards by the front wheel, the rear wheel has done it - it has chucked it forwards.

 

So those M+S's were spewing out mud and stones throughout their rotation.  Which is exactly what they should do.  Self cleaning.

 

So, anyone with winter tyres fitted, now there's a bit of snow about, could have a look after a journey to see if their tyres have thrown out snow and slush forwards.  If they have they should be working.  If they haven't …..

 

Then post a pic.

 

Totally unscientific and I'm sure there'll be posts saying "there's all types of snow" but hey, shouldn't a good winter tyre cope with everything?  And yes, I'm sure a lot would get stuck to the top of the tread and thrown about too, so maybe a better test would be how clean the tread of the tyre is just before it hits the ground again, but that's somewhat harder to examine if the car is wafting along.

 

 

 

 

 

[Rooted]

If a good winter tyre would cope with everything then Tyre Manufacturers would not make various different types of Winter Tyres, Snow Tyres etc.

 

Michelin make a Summer Tyre that is Winter Certificated, and other make All Weather, All Season Tyres. 

Lots of tyre choices in Winter, Snow, M&S, Wets, Summers, All Seasons, All Weathers, it is the business they are in.

 

Good Tyre Section on Briskoda with years of tyre threads and winter tyre threads.

 

PS 
Speed has a lot to do with tyre / tread clearing, and the tyre of Mud / H2o content with clearing mud, and if it sticks in wheel arches, or runs off.

With Snow / Slush / Ice sometimes temp and type of snow, it might gather in wheel arches, or not, or actually freeze in the arches so much the wheels / tyres can not be steered.

Edited 10 December, 2017 by AwaoffSki

[Urrell]

35 minutes ago, aka_pseudonym said:

So M+S or winter tyres should chuck out anything stuck in their tread as they rotate, so the tread is nice and empty for the next pass.

 

Snow tyres are made to keep the snow in the treads.
Guess what sticks to snow best, you've got it more snow.

[Rooted]

Winter Tyres are not always Snow tyres, they will have what ever ability they might be designed to have,

and clogged up tyres can be useless on anything that is not pretty flat, and might climb but descending you still become a sledge.

Why Snow Chains are available when Snow or Winter Tyres are just not good enough.

 

Vehicle weight and speed and the ability to keep tyres turning with traction from the tyres when just crawling along and not just stopping them spinning like with Haldex is important.

Edited 10 December, 2017 by AwaoffSki

[aka_pseudonym]

46 minutes ago, Urrell said:

Snow tyres are made to keep the snow in the treads.
Guess what sticks to snow best, you've got it more snow.

 

 

So in this pic of Ogier and his Michelins in Sweden 2017 they've got it totally wrong then?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 10 December, 2017 by aka_pseudonym
wrong rally!

[Rooted]

Speed, Special tyres, sometimes hand cut, perfect compounds, studs.  Speed. 

If you marshal you must see the tyre wagons, i have worked on them changing tyres at rallies.

 

I used these for a while one winter as Snow Tyres even though they are not Snow Tyres, 

sometimes clogged with snow depending on the type, but were rather good on Ice and in slush.

 

BF Goodrich make some lovely Rally Tyres, & Winter tyres for Cars  etc.

Seeing as they are Michelin anyway.

Edited 10 December, 2017 by AwaoffSki

[aka_pseudonym]

3 minutes ago, AwaoffSki said:

you must see the tyre wagons

 

Yup.  VW have an amazing one which did the Dakar as a competitor.

 

Studs are for when the tyre has gone through the snow and is running on the ice underneath.  The tread is for the snow.  Heavy mud, snow, whatever - the aim is to keep the tread clear.  Just as in the pics you posted (except for the nearside rear tractor tyre on the first pic).  Otherwise they'd always use slicks for rallying!!!!

 

 

 

[Urrell]

4 minutes ago, aka_pseudonym said:

the aim is to keep the tread clear.  Just as in the pics you posted (except for the nearside rear tractor tyre on the first pic).  Otherwise they'd always use slicks for rallying!!!!

 

 So this snow tyre that AwayoffSki posted is useless then.

[aka_pseudonym]

3 minutes ago, Urrell said:

So this snow tyre that AwayoffSki posted is useless then

 

No way of knowing from that pic.  If the vehicle had rolled slowly to a halt, or had only been doing 5mph before, there wouldn't be enough rotational speed to chuck out the muck.  I did say my test was unscientific.

 

[Clive]

Any tyres will do if you also have a set f these . . . . . 

 

 

[aka_pseudonym]

1 hour ago, AwaoffSki said:

Winter Tyres are not always Snow tyres

 

Is that the wrong way round?  Shouldn't it be "Snow tyres are not always winter tyres"?

 

BF Goodrich say

 

"M+S - This marking indicates that, in accordance with European regulations, it is a "snow" tyre. Nonetheless, its performances in winter conditions are not tested."

 

Then "3 Peaks Mountain Snow Flake - tyres with this marking are designed for snowy roads and offer performance levels confirmed in tests."

 

Finally "The symbol made up of three peaks and a snowflake (3pMSF) on M+S (Mud & Snow) tyres designates tyres designed for difficult snow conditions."

 

Voila -

 

 

 

 

 

[aka_pseudonym]

16 minutes ago, Clive said:

Any tyres will do if you also have a set f these . . . . . 

 

Could just buy a tank.

[Rooted]

MIchelin are French even though tyres are made in the UK and other places.

BF Goodrich are American, though French Owned.

 

The UK is in Europe & the EU but no need for 3 peak tyres to be used here in the UK, but plenty do use M&S and All Terrain / Mud Tyres on Snow.

Have done for Decades, hence people often use what works, location location location, 

and then find when they work or do not work well, be it whatever markings are on the sidewall.

I have some really good Conway Remould M&S that are not 3 Peak, and are better performing than 3 Peak tyres on Snow.

I Used Town & County as Winter / Snow Tyres and Stirling Remould Winter Van tyres, and these were rather good in the days before Snow Tyres became more common in the UK, we even used Rally Gravel Tyres as Winter Tyres.

 

These were not Snow Tyres just BF Goodrich A/Ts, towed plenty rally cars & others out from being stuck in the snow though.

Edited 10 December, 2017 by AwaoffSki

[aka_pseudonym]

11 minutes ago, AwaoffSki said:

I have some really good Conway Remould M&S

 

Colway?

 

Do they still exist?  Go back a couple of decades and all the clubmen used them.  Can't seem to find them with google.

 

 

[Llanigraham]

Colway are no longer trading.

[Rooted]

They exist in my shed, and store.

I have a rubber fetish.

 

Bottom.  Comparing, 

 Snow / Winter tyre, 

Winter / All Weather Tyre Marked M&S, 

All Season / Summer Tyres.

Edited 11 December, 2017 by AwaoffSki

[Jeeves]

I have to agree with AwaoffSki about off-road tyres in the snow.  Tucked away in my garage out of direct light and rotated frequently are 3 sets of AT/Rs in a 45 profile - the only size that'll fit my car/wheels and no longer produced.  In fresh snow they are amazing and the Scout was totally unphased in these conditions.  They now fit its 2WD replacement although that's currently on some full winters.  The other cars are on apposite ends of the all-season spectrum and each matches perfectly to its application. quattro+Weatherproof (great yesterday) vs Fabia on CrossClimate (safe/local/learner).

 

My understanding of M+S designation is just that the ratio of tread to groove is 80/20 or less and doesn't account for composition or pattern.  Whilst indicating that a tyre may be better suited to mud and snow than a non- M+S equivalent it's only a small number of drivers who drive in mud and most of us will drive in snow at some stage so can take more comfort from the more specific 3PMSF designation where the patterns are also likely to be 80/20 i.e. "M+S" designated too.

Awaofski myself this weekend. Vmax down the Face...

Edited 11 December, 2017 by Jeeves

[aka_pseudonym]

6 hours ago, Jeeves said:

My understanding of M+S designation is just that the ratio of tread to groove is 80/20 or less and doesn't account for composition or pattern.

 

I've been doing a bit of googling as I'm snowed in!

 

I think we're probably both partially right - or wrong - depending on how you look at it.

 

It seems M+S isn't a standard, just a marketing term which dates back a century: "M+S, or M&S: Mud and Snow; A tire that meets the Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA) and Rubber Association of Canada (RAC) all-season tire definition.  These are commonly found on all-season tires, with self-cleaning tread and average traction in muddy or very snowy conditions, and for low temperatures."

 

Now the "Rubber Manufacturers Association" is just a club of the big names - Bridgestone, Continental, Kumho, Goodyear, Michelin, Pirelli, Yokohama etc.  So they are setting their own definition (and probably changing it) of what M+S means.  I can't find it published for the general public anywhere.  The EU just notes it as a "label" alongside things like "Sports" and "High Performance".

 

The term "self cleaning" appears in a lot of definitions - where a definition actually exists.  So that backs up my concept of grooves which are wider at the outer edge and taper inwards so muck can't get stuck in them.

 

But your concept also seems right as in Canada they seemingly have to have "a contact surface void area will be a minimum of 25% based on mould dimensions" - although that makes it 75/25 not 80/20.

 

Canada - at least Quebec - seems to have dumped the M+S term.  They regulate the tyres fitted to taxis in winter and in 2007 M+S were deemed unsuitable and all taxis had to have the three peaks/snowflake tyres.

 

So both partly right maybe.  It doesn't help the consumer one bit though.  My eyes tell me your AT/R's (Wrangler?) would get me out of a muddy hole if I got stuck, and my eyes also tell me Michelin CrossClimate wouldn't.  But without actually putting them on and finding a hole I have no way of really knowing.

 

 

 

[Kenny R]

https://www.oponeo.co.uk/tyre-article/winter-tyres-don-t-rely-on-the-m-s-mark

[Rooted]

The wonderful thing is that around World Regions or just even on the American Continent there are very wintry conditions be that South America, North America / Alaska or Canada.

 

People driving in snow and ice and all sorts and not a Mountain Peak or Snow Flake symbol on their Winter Tyres.

So cold weather European / EU standards E Marks or Winter Certification is all good and well, but yet often EU Manufacturers fit crap tyres , ECO Tyres etc even to 

AWD's and 4x4's and expect the buyer to then upgrade and still they offer just so so Winter Tyres.

 

Horses for courses, and as many know what is good about some M&S tyres is they get you out of wet grass car parks, caravan parks in the middle of wet UK summers and when winter comes you can fit Winter tyres.

Grassy slopes sometimes being beyond the ability of even a Michelin Crossclimate or other All Weather / Winter tyres.

 

As to Tyre Manufacturers and European ones, they can not make up their minds.

I like my TIGAR Tyres from Serbia from the factory Michelin own.

A Serbian member read a post i made in this section and said they are rubbish. I find they work well in the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigar_Tyres 

They have ones that are Summers / All Seasons with M&S marking or the Snow Tyres with 3 peak markings.

(From ATS Euromaster for Much Cheapness.)

 

Q&A_ Replacing tyres at 3mm tread “an absolute waste” says Michelin director _ Motoring News _ Honest John.mhtml

Tyre depth and why you should change at 3mm Mobile Tyre Fitting.mhtml

 

 

TIGAR M&S

Goodride M&S

Maxxis AP2 All Weather.     So many tyres, so much fun.  Best value & pothole protection probably the TIGAR Tyres.

Edited 11 December, 2017 by AwaoffSki

[aka_pseudonym]

1 hour ago, Kenny R said:

https://www.oponeo.co.uk/tyre-article/winter-tyres-don-t-rely-on-the-m-s-mark

 

Yup!

 

Why don't people go skinnier on winter tyres? You've got 215/60 R16 but 195/65 R16 would actually be nearer - circumference wise.  Skinny and snow go together and in East Lothian you'd get your fair share.  Just wondering!

 

 

[Kenny R]

215 is less wide than the standard 225 17’s . 

Also 215x60x16 is a Skoda approved size for theYeti, 195x65x16 isn’t.

[Rooted]

People do sometimes go narrower in winter. They might well where snow chains are fitted.

But in a Winter that might start in September and go to March or Snow in April there might be only hours worth of snow driving for some or a day or 2,. 

or like 2009-2010 5 weeks of snow on roads or at the side then a thaw before the New years, then a heat wave for weeks.

Not like every UK winter in even the North of the UK means low temps, rain , snow and ice, there can be those driving lovely roads in good weather ]

with the correct Speed / Load rated tyres on.

Then if the weather changes change the tyres / wheels.

 

2nd April 2012 20*oC plus. A heatwave for 10 days up to then.

3rd April 2012 Lambing Snows came. Temp drop over 20*oC in 8 hours.

Stuff not having the right tyres on for a Best Driving Road for great Driving Weather.

 

Edited 11 December, 2017 by AwaoffSki

[aka_pseudonym]

8 minutes ago, Kenny R said:

215 is less wide than the standard 225 17’s . 

Also 215x60x16 is a Skoda approved size for theYeti, 195x65x16 isn’t.

 

OK, thanks. I'll explain. I've only just got my Yeti and my first priority is sorting out a spare wheel.  So I was thinking along the lines of getting some 16" wheels/tyres more suitable for my environment.  I'd probably only actually have those fitted for a quarter of the year total, so using one of those for a spare at other times or a 17" if they were on.  The high boot floor I could live with.  I'm doing well on tyre suggestions for them too - the Tigars look interesting and cheap and cheerful.

 

But currently I can't find anywhere I can buy the spare wheel kit - polystyrene, false floor etc - without also buying the spare wheel, so it'll probably all be for nothing.

 

 

[Rooted]

Put a Wanted Ad in BRISKODA.

Read the Tyres for Sale & Parts for Sale on BRISKODA.   & Ebay is your friend.