DSG in NEUTRAL

[McGyles]

From 2009 and up to 2018 there are topics on many forums, including this one, that debate the operation of the DSG gearbox and "what to do at a red light". Leave it in D or switch to N. I hope this thread will answer this question so we don't get topics like this in the future.

 

The answer is: Leave the gearbox in D !

 

Here is the official DQ500 info from 2009:

https://www.motor-talk.de/forum/aktion/Attachment.html?attachmentId=745184

 

Page 14 you can read:

"Das Druckniveau in den hydraulisch betätigten Kupplungen beträgt max. 14 bar (bei

600 Nm), wobei der Nullpunkt (0 Nm) sich bei ca. 2 bar befindet. Dieses führt zu einem guten und schnellen Befüllverhalten und einer guten Momentenspreizung. Diese ist größer als im DQ250,

gewährleistet aber dennoch einen hohen Komfort. Bei höheren Drehzahlen kompensieren die Fliehöl

ausgleichsräume zu 72 % (K1) bzw. 57 % (K2) den Fliehöldruck in den Kolben und verhindern so ein ungewolltes Schließen der Kupplung. "

Fact is, that in D the clutch is always engaged at 2 bar even when the vehicle is stationary and this is normal!

Due to the fact that the clutch is a wet-clutch in an oil bath, it causes alot less friction than normal dry clutch and doesn't cause wear.

 

Clutch friction equasion: Fn = F*k, because of the oil bath the friction coeficient-k is lower than with the dry clutch, you can have higher engaging force F for the same value clutch friction force Fn.

2bar=0.2 MPa = 0.2 N/mm2

Due to DQ500 being a high torque clutch, it has stiffer clutch packs which don't wear out as fast as softer - DQ500 has been used since 2010 on T5 VW transporter vans with no problems. Because they were mostly company owned, you can imagine they weren't driven with as much care as privated owned cars are. This doesn't mean you can ride the clutch though like with a slushbox.

On the other hand, if you constantly keep switching between D and N, you will cause 10x more wear on the mechatronics unit than it was forseen.

 

 

 

[Rooted]

There is an issue. A location location location one.

The UK highway code,  road etiquette,

and people that pay attention and think of other road users, 

and at extended stops or some weathers will not sit with their foot on the foot brake and have brake lights on with road users sitting behind them.

 

So now with Stop / Start, Autohold, and some VW Vehicles that have brake lights on in autohold and others that do not, 

that can be another debate.

[McGyles]

I completly agree, my post is all about mechanical wise and extended life of the gearbox.

 

Although, putting the car in neutral at prolonged stops has nothing to do with road etiquette, well maybe it does now.

 

It's because of the manual gearbox, if you hold in the clutch instead of putting it into neutral, you wear down the clutch push-bearing ALOT faster and this will need replacement. On the commong automatic-slushboxes it's better to leave it in D and hold your foot on the brake, you will have a little more fuel consumption but the transmission will be more happy (if you've driven older american cars with slushboxes and big engines, you notice a jolt when switching from D to P or N).

 

Now the technology has come so far, that the slushboxes are more damped on the cost of additional torque-springs (like a DMF on the engine), DSG cars have Auto-hold and the manuals still are better putting it in N at longer stops, that this has traversed into "road etiquette".

 

I personaly spent alot of years driving manuals and never putting it N at the traffic lights because i have long lengs and i just relaxed my feet on the brake and clutch until the light changed green, which is bad for the clutch bearing and nowadays bad etiquette. This was before cars had 3rd braking light as standard.

 

What i dislike is, when at a red light, people put the car into N and engage the parking brake, that the light changes and it takes them for ever to start moving.....

 

But yeah, sitting behing a car getting flashed in the face with the red braking light at night is annoying.

[Defenderben]

11 hours ago, AwaoffSki said:

There is an issue. A location location location one.

The UK highway code,  road etiquette,

and people that pay attention and think of other road users, 

and at extended stops or some weathers will not sit with their foot on the foot brake and have brake lights on with road users sitting behind them.

 

So now with Stop / Start, Autohold, and some VW Vehicles that have brake lights on in autohold and others that do not, 

that can be another debate.

Just apply the handbrake as I do, I still leave it in "D" but flick the handbrake button to stop blinding everyone behind with my brake lights

[Rooted]

Obviously for a short halt. 

You would not do that as you wait a bit longer and want to be ready to move, like to get taken through a Convoy Roadworks, or for the Snow Plough to pass through, or the snow gates to open though would you.

Real world as like today.

[BATVANVRS]

4 hours ago, McGyles said:

What i dislike is, when at a red light, people put the car into N and engage the parking brake, that the light changes and it takes them for ever to start moving.....

 

 

Seriously! have people got no patience today? so if I'm at a set of red traffic lights with my DSG in N my handbrake up, the traffic light changes, I put my foot on the brake pedal, put the DSG into D, drop my handbrake & go. Takes me all of 2-2.5 seconds max & that's with using the handbrake! so I actually move off on the green light, if I did use DSG "N" & no handbrake just foot brake pedal, then I would be even quicker to select D (1 second) probably the same amount of time or less as oppose to someone in a manual gearbox doing the same thing?

I'm not having a pop at you fella but I just don't get what the bloody rush is! Now on the other hand if someone has broken down at the traffic lights in front of you, then I can understand the inconvenience but come-on man 1-2 seconds & everyone is annoyed...wanna try & live or drive around in London with that mentality, you will either fit in well with all the other plebs or you would come across someone that would just smack you right in the chops.

 

On a side not to this topic, are we talking about 6 speed dry DSG, 7 speed wet DSG or does this apply to both! I can understand what the original post is talking about & I would rather save life on my gearbox mechatronics etc & prefer to change a set of discs n pads as oppose to a gearbox?

 

 

[McGyles]

The correct procedure is to put the car in gear at yellow lights so you can set-off at green (that's what the yellow light is for, a notice to all drivers to prepare to move). Problem is with people waitting until the green light, than slowly disengaging the parking brake and puting the car into gear. If you wait with the gear selection until green or for the front car to start moving, you waste alot of time, up to 3 cars can miss the light because one slow "starter". Problem is inside big conjested urban areas, where there are alot of cars in queue waitting and the light changes are fast.

 

In the country, take your time no rush.

[McGyles]

On 20. 1. 2018 at 15:47, BATVANVRS said:

On a side not to this topic, are we talking about 6 speed dry DSG, 7 speed wet DSG or does this apply to both! I can understand what the original post is talking about & I would rather save life on my gearbox mechatronics etc & prefer to change a set of discs n pads as oppose to a gearbox?

 

 

It's about the 7-speed wet DSG called DQ500. The dry clutch pack is usualy for 200 000km (130 000 miles) , the wet one should be even more. In general the wet ones are more durable too because they can slip more and overheat less, that's why they are high torque rated. There was a problem with the first DSG transmission where they were closely matched to the engines and they wouldn't last long (for instance DQ250 has 350 Nm max torque and was paired to engines producing 320Nm max torque). The DQ500 can handle 600Nm torque and is paired to 4 cylinder engines ranging from 320 - 500 Nm max torque (240Hp bi-turbo).

 

It's funny that VAG developed the DSG back in 2004 called DSG 02E, you know it under the name DQ250 for transversal mounted engines.

 

There is no dry clutch 6-speed, after DQ250 they introduced the dry clutch 7-speed called DQ200. That's a problamatic transmission from the design, because from an engineering standpoint you can't have a mechanised transmission like a DSG with dry clutches because if you want it to function smootly you need constant minimum clutch pressure. With wet ones it's no problem because you have less friction due to lubrication, but wet clutch-pack transmissions are more expensive and less economic. With DQ200 VAG tried and failed because the mechatronics technology isn't that advanced yet, that it can react smootly. Even wet clutch ones jerk a bit in start-stop traffic. That's why the dry clutch 7-speed DQ200 will always be problematic. Now all DSG are wet-clutch (6-speed DQ250 and 7-speed DQ500). If VW went publicly and say "we've messed up with the DQ200" there would be a massive recall and a "trannygate", same as the 9-speed ZF slush boxes Fiat-Chrysler used most notably on the Jeep Cherokee. That's why it's hard to say about the dry clutch 7-speed DQ200, because at best you are looking at lower clutch-pack life and here you should put the transmission into N or better P at the lights.

 

On a side note, all DSG have a "creep regulation" function built into them, so they can "creep" when neither the brake or throttle pedal are pressed. This increases the clutch pressure above the minimum 2 bar, to the point of cluch biting but not interlocking. When you "creep" you are using minimum engine power so lower pressure is sufficient. Now because with your transmission is in D you are always at 2bar pressure, can't go bellow, you can actualy use the wet-clutch (ONLY THE WET CLUTCH) DSG like a slushbox to creep (NOT TO HOLD YOUR CAR ON A GRADIANT!) with your brake depressed (BUT NOT WITH ONE FOOT ON THE BRAKE AND OTHER ON THE THROTTLE!). Why? Because DSG won't change the clutch pressure above or bellow 2 bar if brake is depressed and throttle isn't pressed and 2 bar is enough for the clutch to bite a little. But on the other hand, if you are too soft on the brake, the system might not register it as braking and increase the clutch plate pressure, which will increase clutch wear. Or just turn on ACC and let the car do it's thing.

[Rooted]

How little the VW Group advance things, they spun on the 10 speed DSG, 

& yet still 6 & 7 Speed Wet Clutch DSG require Oil changes at 40,000 miles in 2018, and no word on that changing.

Vorsprung Durch Technik.   Not really. VW Group and Dealerships are not even clear at telling owners which need Oil, and which Oil & Filter,. 

& then DSG Oil at 40,000 miles but Haldex at 3 years.  So much for Flexible / Variable servicing, Nothing is due at the same Services / Intervals.

http://volkswagen.co.uk/owners/servicing/regimes 

Edited 5 February, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[McGyles]

One of the leading people at Audi R&D is from my country and he proudly stated: "Less and less mechanical engineers are needed in our departments and more electrical engineers and economists", which explains why their "technic" has plumed in the recent years, first with the failed attempt of PD engines, than first gen CR engines emission scandal, DQ200, "monkey-bussines", etc.

 

Same as with Daimler and BMW. Talked to a mechanic that specialises with CV-joints (had service done on my old jeep GC) and he told me that he is getting more and more new (up to 3 years old) BMW's in his shops where the half-axle with CV-joint has failed due to poor design. To save in weight they have made them smaller, but now they can't cope with higher stress. Not to mention the GLC problem, which affects all new C-base 4matic cars.

 

You can't expect that an economist, electrical engineer or a mechatronist will properly design mechanical parts that can handle stress and last long, and they don't want to either. Gone are the old days where quality meant something.

 

Even in my old country of Yugoslavia Gorenje-made (appliance manufacturer) old (not new, they don't make quality like that anymore) water heaters and washing maschines still work to this day, more than 30 years old, with only the belts replaced. Iskra (electronics supplier) coffee grinders, mixers and toasters still work to this day withouth ANY PARTS CHANGED (more than 30 years). Now i go out to buy a new mixer from Siemens and it overheats the motor when chopping onions in less than 1 year of wonership, because they didn't instal a bi-metal overheat cut-off or better cooling.

Edited 6 February, 2018 by McGyles

[Rooted]

You are not Inventing the Wheel for the first time, or Re-inventing it for the umpteenth time, you are just evolving.

 

VW have never got the hang yet of Rubber / Seals / Gaskets, Chains / Tensioners, keeping H2o out of Cabins and in engines yet after a century.

 

If they stuck with reliability, serviceability, longevity, and then developed the next versions with something worth moving onto that would be very clever, 

they just keep evolving things and the same faults go from an original, to the Mk2, Mk3 & on.  

If they build lemons, they just pretend it never happened, try again and just confuse things by using the same badges on cars, names of engines and change the engine , gear box code number.

 

In their aim of being biggest in the world there were CEO's like Martin Winterkorn, an engineers engineer, 

him and others with the 'Doctor' before their name, all the training, background, qualifications, and yet Deaf, Dumb & Blind, 

some other minion must have sneaked in the cheat, the penny pinching, the sub-standard parts.

Supervisory Board,  Management Board, or just 'The buck never stops with us employees!'.

 

Edited 6 February, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[McGyles]

8 hours ago, AwaoffSki said:

 

 

This is THE BEST COMMERCIAL for all German automakers, especialy now after the monkey leek hahahaha

 

Simply EPIC!