Too much oil, brake noise, incomplete Service printout - from Skoda dealer

[Ben70]

Hi folks, I'm new here, and very grateful in advance for any thoughts that may help.
I'm sorry this is sort of more than one subject in one post.
I picked up my new 3 yr old (1 owner, 8000 miles) Citigo just a week ago from a Skoda dealership.

Supposedly it was serviced before purchase, and this was even mentioned in the discussion prior to agreeing price.
I noticed a quiet sound from brakes on getting it home. Not a screech, or grind, I wouldn't say, but more a 'sshh' when you apply the brakes (not there when released) and noticeable only really when stopping in a quiet situation.  But it is always there.   In fact I did get a squeak one morning, soon after starting - just the once, but otherwise just this consistent, quiet sound.

Now I've just checked the engine oil dipstick for the first time and there is too much oil (naive, I know, should have checked before purchase. Boy I'm learning a lot now quickly but haven't been a car owner for over a decade.)  Having checked several times it appears about 4 or 5 mm above the 'full' mark (or top kink in the metal in this case).  Is this very bad?

Thirdly, when I checked the 'Complete Record' printout that it came with, of Service history (again I didn't notice this at the time...) it only has the most recent 2 services, including the one they've just done (apparently) and the previous one from April last year.  I phoned and told someone at the dealership and he said the whole thing would be posted to me.  Nearly a week later it hasn't arrived.  When I was speaking to him he did look up on his computer and read off some of the earlier service info, so it is there.   Does this sound like some kind of deliberate ploy?  I know the record now is held on a database.  But are we at the garage's mercy in terms of being able to access this record?  Do we not have a right to the information?   I've tried to phone the garage more than once and they have not returned my calls once, despite being told they would.  Does this sound typical?
I really would appreciate any advice on these matters. 
Thanks a lot, Ben

PS, I was told with certainty (again pre-purchase) that my car does not have a cambelt, but a cam chain, and therefore will not need changing.  But I've seen on this forum (and elsewhere) that there are conflicting reports/views on whether this car has a cambelt or chain.  I can find no actual evidence written anywhere...  Does anyone have any knowledge on that, or how I can actually find out, before the 30 day return period runs out?   It's a 2014 Citigo SE Greentech, with the smaller engine.   This seems very strange to me, but I am new to this seemingly murky car world!
 

Edited 25 January, 2018 by Ben70

[Rooted]

Welcome.

 

Call the Dealership, ask for the Principal Dealer, 

tell them you are not pleased, ask him or her to resolve things. 

Email to the Principal Dealer as well, and if not resolved by tomorrow lunch time, forward to Skoda UK Customer Services, 

the Call Handler can remind the Dealership to play the game. 

 

Are you checking the Oil at Operating Temperature parked on the flat after a few minutes, as you should.

This will be the correct oil check.  A Stone Cold check will have the oil level higher.

 

Are the brake pads new, so not much of a gap between pads and discs, or just some rust build up on the discs.

Have them checked.

 

Contact Skoda UK Customer Services and get the Service Record from the System, 

and tell them off the issue with the SKODA SECRET SERVICING DEALERSHIP.

http://skoda.co.uk/about-us/recall-actions 

 

 

This is not from a Citigo Owners Manual, check the one you have.

Edited 25 January, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[ronime]

4 hours ago, Ben70 said:

I noticed a quiet sound from brakes on getting it home. Not a screech, or grind, I wouldn't say, but more a 'sshh' when you apply the brakes (not there when released) and noticeable only really when stopping in a quiet situation.  But it is always there.   In fact I did get a squeak one morning, soon after starting - just the once, but otherwise just this consistent, quiet sound.

Now I've just checked the engine oil dipstick for the first time and there is too much oil (naive, I know, should have checked before purchase. Boy I'm learning a lot now quickly but haven't been a car owner for over a decade.)  Having checked several times it appears about 4 or 5 mm above the 'full' mark (or top kink in the metal in this case).  Is this very bad?

Thirdly, when I checked the 'Complete Record' printout that it came with, of Service history (again I didn't notice this at the time...) it only has the most recent 2 services, including the one they've just done (apparently) and the previous one from April last year.

 

The "sshh" or hissing sound is the brake servo. Mine does this, I put it down to the engine gubbins being very close to the passenger compartment and the general lack of sound insulation in these cars.

 

My Elegance had its 3rd service in November last year and for some reason the 2nd service does not appear on the printouts. It is recorded in Skoda's service history though (I asked the dealer to confirm and show me the screen).

 

Check the oil with the car on level ground. The road outside my house is only slightly off-level but enough to wrongly show the 1.8TSI EA888 engine in our previous SEAT Leon to be on the lower limit on the dipstick.

[Ben70]

Thanks very much, Ronime.  
Re. the brakes, that's the kind of thing I suppose I wanted to hear, so I hope that's all it is.
There are times I've thought it sounded like something of that nature (though I don't actually know what a servo is...) but also often it sounds quite like I would imagine the brake pads rubbing on the brake disc to physically sound like, potentially.  I've driven a lot of hire cars ('B class' almost always) in recent years and don't recall ever having noticed a similar thing before in any of those (various makes), so I'll try to be optimistic about it hopefully just being due to lack of soundproofing.  
Re. car oil, thanks for the thought.  I now have it booked into the service dept of the dealer on Monday.  Where I did the checks it is certainly pretty flat - I did consider that -  but I suppose it may have a very slight slope, which it sounds like can have quite a significant effect.  Appreciate your input, cheers.

 

Re. the printouts - are they just accidentally leaving half of them on the photocopier?  

 

Edited 25 January, 2018 by Ben70

[Ben70]

5 hours ago, AwaoffSki said:

Welcome.

 

Call the Dealership, ask for the Principal Dealer, 

tell them you are not pleased, ask him or her to resolve things. 

Email to the Principal Dealer as well, and if not resolved by tomorrow lunch time, forward to Skoda UK Customer Services, 

the Call Handler can remind the Dealership to play the game. 

 

Are you checking the Oil at Operating Temperature parked on the flat after a few minutes, as you should.

This will be the correct oil check.  A Stone Cold check will have the oil level higher.

 

Are the brake pads new, so not much of a gap between pads and discs, or just some rust build up on the discs.

Have them checked.

 

Contact Skoda UK Customer Services and get the Service Record from the System, 

and tell them off the issue with the SKODA SECRET SERVICING DEALERSHIP.

http://skoda.co.uk/about-us/recall-actions 

 

 

This is not from a Citigo Owners Manual, check the one you have.

 

Thanks loads AwaoffSki.
 

Yep, the diagram in fact looks pretty identical to the one in my Citigo manual.
I've now managed to get the car booked in for a check on Monday, back at the service centre of the dealer.

The oil was about as far above the top kink in the dipstick as the bottom of the A section is below it (my dipstick looking like the one on the left, except the textured section on mine fills the whole of the 'kinked'/indented bit.
I will now see what happens on Monday, and follow your advice if it doesn't seem like they're sorting things and being genuine.
I did the oil check after about 4 or 5 mins after use (is that close enough to the suggested 3 mins?), though it had only been driven a couple of miles.  I then did it again after about an hour of being parked with same result as far as I could tell.  4 or 5 mm over the level it looks like it should be in diagram.
Unfortunately your link doesn't lead to a current web page at the moment I tried it, but you've told me what to do there too, cheers. 
From what I read about rust on discs I've been hoping it may be just that, but it isn't going away quickly.
Perhaps a bit that and a bit servo, as ronime suggests?   They've said they'll check the brakes on Monday as well as drain some oil.
Don't know if new brake pads.  The service record I have doesn't mention any brake pads issue, but does state 'Rear brake drum' re. the service last April.  There is no detail whatsoever, just literally says those words, so I don't know if that means there was a complete replacement, on perhaps just one wheel? Or both...?  Or why it was needed?  

So are you saying I should be able to get the service record - a print off - from Skoda central customer services?  Pleased to hear it if so.  I thought maybe it was a ploy so I'd be more likely to need to sell the car back to that dealer, if I do re-sell eventually, than to a private buyer.  Apologies for late reply.  I don't have very regular internet at the mo (another problem!) and often rubbish connection, but I will get back to any further replies eventually, cheers again.
 

[oxonboxn]

Re cambelts/chain...definitely a belt of the long-life variety....shouldn't ever need changing (that's not official Skoda, but off-the record from my dealership's service manager).

[Emil]

Oil level should be lower when oil is cold. And when oil is warm oil level shouldn't be over the top limit. You have to wait a couple of minutes that oil has enough time to return to oil sump before checking oil level.

 

These 1.0 MPI engines have timing belt. Both engines are same size. Power difference is just programming difference. 

[Rooted]

That is just wrong.

 

If you think after a few minutes warm oil is out of all the journals and the head and down the cylinders and in the sump again, 

you are going to have certainly all that oil and more after you stop a 'hot' engine and it has several hours to drain, 

there is not less oil in the sump Cold compared if you check 12 hours later to what is there as it drains down warm in 5 minutes.

 

 

The Engine oil does not increase in volume at 90*oC compared to at 15*oC, when it has gone around the engine and then back into the sump into which the dip stick dips.

(put 3 litres of engine oil in a cooking pan, mark the level cold,  them heat to 100*oC and see just how little there is in an increase from that mark.)

 

When cold and all the oil is in the sump there is something very odd if the Cold Check dip has the oil surface in the sump not higher.

Try it again tomorrow. 

Cold dip before engine started, then operating dip maybe 16 km later.

Edited 25 January, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[Emil]

For sure oil expands when it gets hot, as any fluid. And when oil is hot it will return in 2-5 minutes back to oil sump.

 

If you start and stop an cold engine, that's when you shouldn't check the oil level. Because it takes some time before oil return to oil sump.

 

Edit: If you top up to upper limit when changing engine oils, there for sure is too much oil when engine gets warm. That's what they often do, and that's probably the reason why there is too much oil in engine in this case too.

Edited 26 January, 2018 by Emil

[Rooted]

Too many overfilled and underfilled vehicles out there from PDI's and Services.

 

When talking Stone Cold, that is an engine not started and the oil pump raising cold oil.

 

'Warm' is a Translation error in Skoda Owners Manuals where VW , Audi might say 'operating temperature' and SEAT says 'Hot'. 

 

Some owners manuals from VW Group / Skoda clearly say only the 1.2 44Kw engine is checked cold, 

for a 1.0 litre Up!miiCitigo read the owners manual, see what translations are used to any language.

 

None of it is rocket science or difficult, 

but sitting ticking over does not get modern engines to operating temperature.  If checking cold, check cold un-started engines.

 

 

Edited 26 January, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[Emil]

In our language (Finnish) I often say "warm engine" meaning it is at operating temperature. Not just a coolant but oil too needs to be warm. 

[Rooted]

No operating temperature is Coolant at 90*oC and oil will be 80*oC or so. 

 

'Warm' is the error, the confusing, the **** up!

even with 'Factory trained technicians' or so called. 

 

Drain off or suction off engine oil (1).doc

Oil changed @ normal operating temperature as well.

 

 

 

Edited 26 January, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[Emil]

No, operating temperature is when engine is warmed up. Also oil even though you cannot often say how warm oil is, when engine is warm.

 

********

 

About the brake noise: I had some when rear brakes were just cleaned. Also original  front brake pads are noisy, as they contains quite a lot metal bits. 

[Ben70]

Thanks very much to all!
Apologies for delayed reply, not able to get back yesterday.
 

On 1/25/2018 at 22:11, oxonboxn said:

Re cambelts/chain...definitely a belt of the long-life variety....shouldn't ever need changing (that's not official Skoda, but off-the record from my dealership's service manager).

 

Thanks Oxonboxn.  But again, if I understand you correctly, this is an off-the-record piece of info from someone potentially  'who would say that wouldn't they'.  Someone else here again said something that sounded maybe contradictory, I think. (see Emil quote below).  Is it that we just have to trust the dealers word, as it's not written anywhere and not visible for us to see under the bonnet?

 

20 hours ago, Emil said:

No, operating temperature is when engine is warmed up. Also oil even though you cannot often say how warm oil is, when engine is warm.

 

********

 

About the brake noise: I had some when rear brakes were just cleaned. Also original  front brake pads are noisy, as they contains quite a lot metal bits. 

 

Thanks Emil.  Maybe this and a bit of rust from lack of use, and servo too, accounts for the brake noise.  I hope so but am going to get it checked out on Monday. 

On 1/25/2018 at 22:26, Emil said:

Oil level should be lower when oil is cold. And when oil is warm oil level shouldn't be over the top limit. You have to wait a couple of minutes that oil has enough time to return to oil sump before checking oil level.

 

These 1.0 MPI engines have timing belt. Both engines are same size. Power difference is just programming difference. 

Emil, you say it has a 'timing belt'.  Are you saying that what Oxonboxn said is incorrect, or do you mean a 'long life' thing?
(Is this long-life thing in fact not a chain, but made of sturdier stuff as if it were a chain - hence some people call it a chain??)

Thanks for all the info about the oil too.  
So far since I've had the car I've driven it only on two 60 mile journeys, and three 4 mile journeys.  That's all.  Could that lead to any damage to the engine with too much oil? 
When I see them on Monday and have any excess drained, should I ask for some compensation?  Would appreciate any views on that.
Yesterday I couldn't drive the car, but (before reading all this) I did another test of the oil level.  Here's what I did:

Ran the engine for 5 mins, but with the car just stationary, engine ticking over.  Left it for 3 or 4 mins, then did an oil test, about 3 times.  Each time level is about 2 - 4 mm above top level (top kink on dipstick).
Then, I turned the car around to face the opposite direction (it is parked on a driveway, which is perhaps not completely level).  Again after this I left the engine for 3 minutes, then performed the check about 3 times.  Definitely still over the top level, about 2 mm at least.  
I then moved the car to face half way between the two previous directions (i.e. at 90 degrees).  Waited 3 minutes again and did the dipstick check again at least 3 times.  Definitely still a couple of mm at least above top level.  Hard to see really if it's 2 or 5 mm sometimes, hence multiple checks.  Would help if the dipstick wasn't black metal!...
So, can we say there's too much oil?   The test I haven't yet done is one where the car has driven a good number of miles before doing the check (after a pause of 3 minutes).
Any further advice much appreciated, cheers all. 

Edited 27 January, 2018 by Ben70

[Rooted]

Can you just go to the car, open the bonnet, do not start the engine or move the car and see where the oil is on the dip stick?

 

If it has a Long Life Cam belt it is a belt and not a chain.

[Ben70]

31 minutes ago, AwaoffSki said:

Can you just go to the car, open the bonnet, do not start the engine or move the car and see where the oil is on the dip stick?

 

If it has a Long Life Cam belt it is a belt and not a chain.

 

Okay, yep just done that.  
Without any pre-wiping of the dipstick it appears a good 5 mm above the top level of the kink in the dipstick, or in other words 5 mm along the continuous long straight section.

My dipstick is like that on the left in the manual's diagram, except that the textured section shown as B ('oil level within range') fills the entire length of the kinked bit.  There's no untextured section of dipstick (as in A or C in the diagram). So not obvious to me where A or C are actually supposed to be,.  

Also, the dipstick also has a little knob of yellow plastic just a few inches up from the kinked section.  All the way up to this there also appeared to be some amount of oil residue of some kind - that is, it wasn't completely 'dry' looking before wiping, but distinctly less 'wet' looking that down at the bottom area previously described.

Then I wiped the dipstick and re inserted.  This time it reads as about 2 or 3 mm above the top kink.  Car currently facing direction that is probably very slightly uphill.

 

Thanks re. cambelt too.
  

 

Edited 27 January, 2018 by Ben70

[Emil]

To me it sounds like you have too much oil in the engine, unfortunately. I hate when they do that at service. It shouldn't be hard to fill correct amount of oil. 

[Emil]

Timing belt needs to be replaced at 240000km, last time I checked. There is another belt for water pump at the other end of engine. I don't know how often it needs to be changed. 

Edited 28 January, 2018 by Emil

[Ben70]

3 hours ago, Emil said:

Timing belt needs to be replaced at 240000km, last time I checked. There is another belt for water pump at the other end of engine. I don't know how often it needs to be changed. 

Thanks very much, Emil.