1.5 SEL first gear issue.

[Rooted]

The time must be nearing where UK Motoring Journals and journalists need to stop being deaf, dumb and blind and get on with commenting.

Experiences like with @SuperbDave  & others here must be getting to a wider audience now.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/458520-problems-with-15-tsi-across-vag-group

 

Edited 13 January, 2019 by Skoffski

[Breezy_Pete]

1 hour ago, rayx said:

 

Well, if any of the owners of this 1.5 TSI engine code DADA would have VCDS diagnostics and could make a log of Camshaft Adjustment (Bank 1 Intake), specific and actual values and the same for Camshaft Adjustment (Bank 2 Exhaust) after cold start and set off on the 1st, there might be something obvious

Injection quantities and spark timing could also be logged in 1st and reverse gears, looking for any obvious differences. Might be tricky to manage comparable accelerations though, especially in 1st gear, judging by this thread.

[Markyj]

I took mine out before, it didn’t over rev itself, it didn’t lurch and it didn’t kangaroo which just adds to the confusion and the annoyance after yesterday the engine doing it’s own thing, revving ridiculously when sat at lights, kangarooing, lurching along the road, a cold engine on a 10 degree day produced the best drive it ever has, a warm engine and a 20 degree day just causes mayhem! 

[shyVRS245]

Was in Church this morning and the Pastor was asking everyone to pray for a smooth Brexit. You can probably guess what I prayed for, yes the power of prayer worked as I left the church car park smoothly without embarrassment and SKIPPY free for once. Praise the Lord, perhaps VW Group should give Jesus a job in their R & D division.

[StEdmund]

After trying to separate sarcasm from observation in the above two posts ....... do I detect that others are also noticing a mysterious variability in the appearance of the annoying (and dangerous) Karoq 'characteristics'? I have now done some 2700 miles in the Karoq and I'm sure that the kangarooing and junction-dying started to reduce after around 2000 miles. During the past 2 or 3 weeks, I've taken the car out for a few spins locally and not been able to reproduce the dreaded symptoms. I began to wonder if it was simply a question of me learning how to cope with the beast - so one evening, my wife drove, and it behaved for her as well.

I have heard of a car's ecu (?) learning and adapting to someone's driving style - could that be what's going on here?

[Salp]

Unfortunately at 8500 miles, my car has not learnt a thing  :-(

[TheRealExile]

Same :-( bad as ever. 

[Portman]

1 hour ago, Salp said:

Unfortunately at 8500 miles, my car has not learnt a thing  :-(

 

Not a Simply Clever Skoda then 

[rayx]

On 13/01/2019 at 12:09, Wino said:

Injection quantities and spark timing could also be logged in 1st and reverse gears, looking for any obvious differences. Might be tricky to manage comparable accelerations though, especially in 1st gear, judging by this thread.

 

Not sure if injection quantities can be checked at diag as live data for this engine EA 211 EVO family, it is not possible for EA 888.

 

Yet one idea, why people could notice this engine jerking issue not straight from the new. xman already mentioned it here. It could be the regulated stepless oil pump, which surely has Run-in period set up from the factory for first thousand or more? miles, so it has enough oil pressure for all including Camshaft Adjustment. When this feature is by ECU switched off after driven distance, oil pump is regulated so there might by issue on low revs with insuficient oil pressure still high enough to not raise an alarm via oil pressure sensor (Switching pressure: 0.03 - 0.06 MPa (0.3 - 0.6 bar)), on oil 0W-20

 

Just to compare, 1.8 TSI EA888 Gen2+Gen3 has for Low pressure sensor Switching pressure: 0.055 - 0.085 MPa (0.55 - 0.85 bar), on oil 5W-30

Edited 14 January, 2019 by rayx

[Breezy_Pete]

4 minutes ago, rayx said:

which surely has Run-in period set up from the factory for first thousand or more? miles

Hmm, not sure about that aspect.

 

10 minutes ago, rayx said:

Not sure if injection quantities can be checked at diag as live data for this engine EA 211 EVO family, it is not possible for EA 888.

I didn't know that.

 

 

Isn't oil pressure usually comfortably high when the oil is cold, due to the (relatively) high viscosity?

[shyVRS245]

Ours has an unusually high run-in period of 11,412 miles and still bunny hops.

[Rooted]

As to the oil viscosity.

 

There are people reporting issues with 1.5 TSI that left the factory with VW504/507 so 5w 30 FS LL.

 

Then those with late 2018 and early 2019 First Registered cars that have VW508/509 from the factory so 0w 20 FS LL having issues.

Edited 14 January, 2019 by Skoffski

[xman]

The fully variable oil pump is controlled by the ecu and presumably has a full range pressure sensor for control feedback. Probably a vane type pump as found in the 1.0tsi. So no problem in producing the required pressure on demand.

 

Another area to explore is the revised injection, now raised up to 350bar and up to 5 (from 3) injections per cycle. Multiple injections occur at idle and low speed/low load.

 

Brings back very bad memories of a previously owned Fiat Multijet 1.3 diesel fitted in a Corsa which had fits at low speeds especially when taking off or slowing down, ultimately leading to a serious accident on a roundabout when it stalled in a vicious manner after entering.

[rayx]

Run-in perion means the oil pump delivers only high=normal pressure so all parts can "run-in" on enough oil delivery on first miles. Done via N428 valve, which remains unpowered/not activated by ECU.

After run-in period ECU starts to activate N428 valve, so the oil pump can deliver lower/regulated oil pressure via delivery qty of oil according saved map.

 

Just as reference, EA888 Gen3 can be for 1000km/miles "fooled" via adaptation channel IDE01945 - Engine run-in oil pressure

Edited 14 January, 2019 by rayx

[Breezy_Pete]

15 hours ago, StEdmund said:

have heard of a car's ecu (?) learning and adapting to someone's driving style - could that be what's going on here?

Seems unlikely to me. 

Skoda/VW wouldn't need to be working on a fix for this by Q2, they'd just say, give it some time, it'll come good on its own.

 

 

[Breezy_Pete]

4 minutes ago, rayx said:

Run-in perion means the oil pump delivers only high=normal pressure so all parts can "run-in" on enough oil delivery on first miles. Done via N428 valve, which remains unpowered/not activated by ECU.

After run-in period ECU starts to activate N428 valve, so the oil pump can deliver lower/regulated oil pressure via delivery qty of oil according saved map.

 

Presumably the state of that valve can be seen in measuring blocks?

Is this just a theory, or do you have evidence that this 'run-in period' is actually done? 

Edited 14 January, 2019 by Wino

[Breezy_Pete]

12 minutes ago, xman said:

presumably has a full range pressure sensor for control feedback

Anyone with circuit diagrams to confirm presence/absence of this?

[shyVRS245]

10 minutes ago, xman said:

The fully variable oil pump is controlled by the ecu and presumably has a full range pressure sensor for control feedback. Probably a vane type pump as found in the 1.0tsi. So no problem in producing the required pressure on demand.

 

Another area to explore is the revised injection, now raised up to 350bar and up to 5 (from 3) injections per cycle. Multiple injections occur at idle and low speed/low load.

 

Brings back very bad memories of a previously owned Fiat Multijet 1.3 diesel fitted in a Corsa which had fits at low speeds especially when taking off or slowing down, ultimately leading to a serious accident on a roundabout when it stalled in a vicious manner after entering.

We had a Corsa with that terrible engine on a site that covered 120 acres and the DPF would clog up and needed a blast up the motorway to get rid of the warning light on a very regular basis.

[rayx]

Well, do not have evidence for EA 211EVO, but I guess it must be used as it was used for EA888 Gen3. VAG needs engine will survive at least guarantee period, without run-in on proper oil pressure it would be hard ...

 

 

 

well, this say more to new EVO, russian version and google translated in English.

pps_555_dvigateli_1_5l_96-110kv_tsi_rus.pdf

pps_555_dvigateli_1_5l_96-110kv_tsi_rus.ru.en.pdf

 

Originals can be ordered here

https://erwin.seat.com/erwin/SSP00016920.info?articleId=89200

https://erwin.seat.com/erwin/showArticleProperties.do?articleId=89200

 

https://erwin.volkswagen.de/erwin/SSP00055520.info?articleId=89116

https://erwin.volkswagen.de/erwin/showArticleProperties.do?articleId=89116

 

 

Edited 14 January, 2019 by rayx

[xman]

2 minutes ago, Wino said:

Anyone with circuit diagrams to confirm presence/absence of this?

 

I think it is similar to the 1.0tsi EA211 oil pump as described on p22-p24 in SSP539

 

SSP-539_1_0-l_3-cylinder_TSI_Engine.pdf

[Breezy_Pete]

Oil pressure sensor G10, in rayx's first link, page 20.

[xman]

From SSP539 re variable oil pump (p13)

 

During the first 1,000 km, the vane-type oil pump delivers the maximum oil pressure of 3.3 bar (relative). This balances out the increased thermal loading of the components when the engine is run in.

[Breezy_Pete]

@rayx @xman great work guys.

 

Some owners are kangarooing from day/km 1 though, aren't they?

 

Edited 14 January, 2019 by Wino

[xman]

Yup

[rayx]

Was not sure, just mentioned possible root cause. My personal opinion is still the internal EGR used over its maximum. Confusing is some say it jumps, others say it runs smoothly. Well, I am looking forward to see the log of both Camshafts Adjustment, so we can discuss on real data and not just thoughts/feelings