croquemonsieur

smipx, I threatened to com back again about my MY19 1.0 DSG and how it behaves on the over-run on downhills. I've had a couple of weeks to monitor this + there's a long 40mph moderately steep downhill main road near me, which can tell me more clearly how my car reacts, but hadn't gone that way for a few weeks, until this morning. So approaching the top of this at near 40mph in Drive & car was in 6th, I let it coast down initially & it stayed in 6th as it got near 50mph. Gently applying the brakes halfway down, to prevent it going any faster, it stayed in 6th (on the level at constant speed, or downhill, with a bit of throttle it would maybe have gone into 7th, but need to confirm that). As I approached my Left turn off, I started using the brakes a little firmer and it stayed in 6th until I got down to just over 30mph, when it changed to 5th (no perceptible noise or engine braking) and then it changed down again to 4th as I approached the low 20s (again no perceptible noise or engine braking). Apologies to anyone who finds that level of detail boring, but it does appear that the MY19 1.0 DSG behaves rather differently on downhills to the MY19 1.5 DSG and to other autos I've had previously. My car does seem to want to stay in a high gear as much as possible - good job the Gear Lever Sport setting is so easy to engage (& disengage) for uphills & overtaking and got used to and like the high geared nature of the car. I've also a little to say about Autohold, but I'll put that in the slightly later thread here on that topic.

Just to repeat from the AE Tyres thread - beware that the specified noise ratings are those measured outside the car rather than inside. The tyre quietest outside doesn't necassarily mean it's the quietest inside. Not many reviews measure or comment on noise inside. Tyre Reviews was an exception last year, also looking at noise on smooth roads + rough surfaces (latter typically 10dB higher inside the car - that's 10x the Acoustic energy, but the way the ear works, that is perceived by humans as being about twice as loud. Sadly this year they could only do outside measurements + only on smooth roads. However internal comparisons do depend on how the tyre interacts with the car structure, bushes etc. & so even they can only be a partial indicationon a car different to the one tested. not sure about how much difference tyre size makes inside. Typically a lower profile tyre reacts louder to ridges/broken road suraces, but varies beteewn makers and even their own products. As an aside, I did see something recently about the wheels proposed for the Dyson EV that was being developed, but found to be too costly to make. They were proposing massive 25" diameter wheels, as they believed they rode better over poor roads - they did look to have very low profile tyres as well. However, I'm not yet ready to take what they say at face value.

I wonder if there's a mistake in the noise chart of that latest All Seasons Tyres Review. They show the summer tyre much quieter than the winter tyre & also quieter than all the All Season tyres except for the new Pirelli Cinturato All Seasons SF2. In 2020 the equivalent review found the Winter tyres generally quieter. I couldn't find what those comparison tyres were this time - the info was available in last year's testing. Disappointingly an aspect I'm very interested in, noise and comfort tests were a bit cursery this year, as :- 1). They couldn't do the rough road test this time to ascertain road noise in such circumstances, important to me. 2). They couldn't measure noise levels inside the car this time at all, so only compared dB levels outside. Qquietest outside doesn't necessarily mean quietest inside. 3) The latest Golf 8 doesn't show up differences in tyres as much as earlier models, the Golf 8 suspension being very good at isolating car occupants from road noise rough and road ride. From what one or two have said in the Karoq section, the Karoq though not bad in these respects, particularly with smaller wheels and higher profile tyres, isn't as good and such aspects difference are thus more significant. Michelin CC2 came out overall on top, having been much improved in most areas over the CC+. The Pirelli came 2nd, being top for rolling resistance, road noise and top = for ride comfort (CC2 average in these respects) + not bad in other areas, though the CC2 generally a bit better in snow, wet & dry. Last year the Bridgestone AW tyre was clearly in the lead for ride, but the 005 version this year clearly was not. Most of the tyres tested were new models (Last year's winner, the Goodyear 4 Seasons Gen3 was one of the few unchanged - still did quite well). All the tyres were XL - reinforced side walls except for the Nokian which interestingly was no better for comfort than the Pirelli & Goodyear https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2021-Auto-Bild-SUV-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm Auto Bild placed the Pirelli 6th & CC2 2nd overall in the SUV test. They did agree the Pirelli was quietest when measured outside, but rolling resistance not as good as CC2. At the moment, now gravitating towards the Pirelli for fitting on 16" wheels next year.

I dismissed Autohold, soon after getting my Karoq 2yrs ago, due to my eroneous understanding that it had to be used with stop/start - which I only want to use occasionally, when waits longer than a few seconds are expected, say at traffic lights. Recent discussions here (thanks to Kenny R etc.) are leading me to think that after all, it might be a good thing to keep on most of the time (stop/start or no stop/start) - early days yet & just started experimenting with how much I wish to keep it switched on. It would seem to overcome one or 2 drawbacks in the generally excellent DSG system & make driving a little easier still.

Ah, even better, re autohold. On said downhill, the engine dropped from 6th to 5th and then to 4th. I don't think when gear changing is controlled by the software, rather than by humans, it would drop 2 gears in one go, only does one gear at a time. Wouldn't jumping 2 gears go against the point of having the 2 gearboxes in the one principal of DSGs. My understanding - when in one gear, the other gearbox is on standby, raring to take up the drive at any moment, should the software decide to change up or down one notch. Jumping 2 gears would introduce delay and likely jerk the car, while the clutch and that same gearbox already in use, sorts things out. Hopefully that description isn't put too clumsily.

I began to try braking on a downhill this morning. Looking at the engaged gear indication near the speedo, applying brakes didn't cause the gearbox to change down, well not straight away at least. Once the car had slowed a certain amount, it did start to change down, seemingly more or less appropriate to the reducing road speed. However that process was totally silent and jerk free + there was no sensation of engine braking once it did this. This is in sharp contrast to the 1200 Yeti where you would hear and feel the change and subsequent slow down and from what I recall from 2+ years ago, it tended to start to change down on the overrun, before even touching the brakes. Will continue to monitor behaviour going downhill. Someone commented some months (or was it years) ago that there's not much stiction in the 1.0 3 cyl engine, so you get very little engine braking anyway, but I'd have thought untill now the newer 1.5 would have been similar. My car certainly feels very different from the previous Yeti when on the overrun. I'm beginning to try out Autohold too, without stop/start & yes it's fairly easy to achieve smooth starts and I can give the right foot a rest whilst waiting. Also it looks like it could make pulling out at road junctions into traffic, more relaxing, so could well become a regular driving habit. I wonder if it minimises clutch slip (& wear) in the process - quite possibly as it's presumably controlled by software that would aim to optimise this. However, I like being able to creep when parking in tight spaces, but it's so easy to switch autohold off then, as the button is conveniently located next to the driver, unlike for stop/start - at least that's in RHD Karoqs. Whether I use Autohold in slow moving traffic, I'll think on & experiment, maybe in conjunction with Sport.

That's strange smipx & thanks for the reply in the other thread about Autohold. Driving along some country lanes with quite a lot of ups & downs this morning, after a while I remembered about your DSG changing down issue and again I wasn't aware of this happening in my 1.0 DSG MY19, though I wasn't watching the gear indication on the instrument panel - however, there were no sustained downhill stretches. There is a reasonably long enjoyable bit of downhill near me though, dropping down from Epping forest to Junction 26 on the M25. It's a nice smooth-tarmac narrowish road (well it was smooth) with some bends at the top and bottom and I normally coast down trying to avoid using the brakes. A 3-series say, might be on my tail at the top, but by the time I get to the bottom, as often as not, he/she's usally some distance back - makes makes me feel really smug. I haven't used this route for a few months as roadworks with traffic lights means there's always rather long hold ups at the moment & I'm taking a country lane through the forest instead. However, I can't recall the Karoq ever changing down along that stretch, whereas the last Yeti & other previous cars always did quite audibly, at the same time putting a bit of a jolt through the car. When the roadworks eventually finish (what on earth are they doing over such a long period, I don't know) I'll resume taking that road & try to remember to report back on what the Karoq does, keeping an eye on the gear indicator too.

Perhaps I should reassess Autohold then. I had decided I didn't like using it, not very long after getting my Karoq. I recall, in conjunction with stop/start, it seemed to make starting from standstill a bit sudden, on top of the modest jolt that stop/start sends through the car. But if I'm wanting to make a quick getaway say into a busy main road from a T junction it might be the best option. I wonder if it can be used without engaging stop/start.

Square wheels. Err No, as Churchill would say, Tim1361 - fine at standstill but on the move, the corners might hit the wheel arch - whatever you do, don't turn the steering wheel as well.

As well as the way old style autos work more gently from standstill, half the problem seems to me, to be the way Skoda make the throttle foot pedal sensitivity work much too fiercely at the top of the pedal movement. I still wonder if this behaviour could be ameliorated through adjustment via VCDS/OBD11 - maybe I'll ask sooussi on the other thread I mentioned before, as he seemed to know something about these 'facilities'. I tried to breach the subject recently with the dealer at my last service, but they didn't seem interested, though i was talking through a receptionist, rather than directly with an engineer, who was probably anyway very busy. I would worry though that any such tinkering might upset the complex way the engine and DSG are carefully programmed/adjusted to work together, so it would need to be done by someone who really knows what they are doing - that's not me - but it would be nice to not have to be quite so careful with the right foot when starting off from standstill. My previous 1200 DSG Yeti throtlle was just as overly sensitive, so is this a general unfortunate Skoda trait?

I've been talking about something very similar to this a couple of days ago in the recent 'GETTING THE BEST OUT OF A DSG' thread. Maybe Dazm, what you report is just this characteristic. Although reviews often praise the DSG box in many ways, they also say that starting from standstill is not as good as with conventional fluid flywheel autos. Even though mine's only a lowly 1.0 Auto (surprisingly perky none the less), I'm beginning to find that ensuring that the clutch initially engages before applying throttle makes 'fast' getaways much smoother, but does involve a bit more anticipation at busy junctions. I just accept it's not as good as my former torquey Saab 2.0 fluid flywheel 9-5 auto in this respect, but a better car in many other ways. Here's my quote from that thread. C Moving from Stationary https://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/843793-DSG-Moving-From-a-Dead-Stop-(it-s-awful) This is the DSG downside that many reviews refer to. I think that's good advice, consciously let the clutch engage before pressing go. It involves a little more anticipation, particularly at T junctions turning right into a busy main road. I have had the car jerk and spin the wheels if pressing the throttle too early & eagerly in the past. So after reading this I've recently tried once or twice being in Sport and letting the clutch grab before touching the throttle when hoping want to make a quick getaway and it does seem to happen fairly smoothly. Before, I found using sport even more jerky than in D. The rather sensitive top of the pedal throttle setting in the Karoq & in my previous Yeti doesn't help for easy smooth starts. An earlier 2.0 Saab Auto was so much more relaxing on fast getaways, but I prefer the Karoq overall.

Regarding the engine braking, I think the source I referred to may have been thinking of using P as a handbrake when parked. Actually, in the past, i have done this and left the handbrake off, if I anticipate it's going to be a cold night and I think the brake could freeze on solid, but not had to in the Karoq so far, as here in sunny SE it's not been cold enough in the last 2 years. I suppose the only other way would be to chock the wheels. Interesting what you say, smipx, about the engine changing down into a lower gear on downhills in your 1.5. My 1.0 Karoq is the first automatic I've had that seems to want to stay IN high gear almost to excess (but not quite), even going downhill - well I haven't been aware of it changing down much anyway. I'd assumed it was partly programmed like this, so that as much energy on the overun as possible, would go into charging the battery. All previous autos' going back maybe 35 years to a Peugeot 505, thro' BMW E39 5 series, Saab 9-5 and actually very noticeably & almost annoyingly so in my last Yeti have always changed down well before I would do in a manual car. On other matters, going back maybe 5 messages to your first video, e-Root, in that set of three, the American Engineer clearly had a lot of respect for those performance wet clutch DSGs, but noted one drawback - they are heavy. I assume that the DQ200 dry clutch model, as well as being designed to be cheaper to make for lower status smaller cars, is also substantially lighter, again referring to one your messages first paragraph (3 messages back) about the light front end of the Yeti 1200 DSG (like my last car).

Ah, that first paragraph gets to the point, mines a 1.0TSI SE Tech MY19 registered registered end of July 2019 & now done only 13,000mls thanks to Covid. I could let the car just get on with it in D, without further questioning and indeed there's no problem with mine, it's fine at crawling speed, but does change from 1st to 2nd very smoothly at the earliest opportunity & I then wonder if the clutch might be slipping again in 2nd. I want to keep the car a long time, particularly as now they're talking about automatic speed limiters for all new cars in the near future, so I just like to gradually like to refine my driving skills to suit how the car operates, hopefully minimising wear. Sadly, I didn't take out the extra 2 year warranty before registration, as I didn't realise the full implications when buying the car. That 1st video, if not relevent to the topic, was interesting even though they didn't mention the cooking, dry clutch DQ200 & ditto the last one on DSG resets - useful to know. Dare I now move on to situation C & it's corresponding link, Source 5 https://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/843793-DSG-Moving-From-a-Dead-Stop-(it-s-awful) C Moving from Stationary This is the DSG downside that many reviews refer to. I think that's good advice, consciously let the clutch engage before pressing go. It involves a little more anticipation, particularly at T junctions turning right into a busy main road. I have had the car jerk and spin the wheels if pressing the throttle too early & eagerly in the past. So after reading this I've recently tried once or twice being in Sport and letting the clutch grab before touching the throttle when hoping want to make a quick getaway and it does seem to happen fairly smoothly. Before, I found using sport even more jerky than in D. The rather sensitive top of the pedal throttle setting in the Karoq & in my previous Yeti doesn't help for easy smooth starts. An earlier 2.0 Saab Auto was so much more relaxing on fast getaways, but I prefer the Karoq overall. I'll leave off introducing a topic on 'WTF moments', but here's the link anyway for info and then I'll run. https://www.vwvortex.com/threads/how-to-play-the-dsg-game-and-win-dsg-driving-tips-and-tricks.5989734/

Yes wet clutch DSGs are different and better in many ways, longer lasting and due to there being more fluid, they are more temperature stable, particularly the clutches. However I still don't seen anything so far, to change my view that proceedures I noted in situations A & B are likely to be good advice for all DSGs. In manual cars, staying in gear with clutch depressed when stopped causes wear on the thrust bearing (and maybe wear in the driver's left leg joints). However, I'm no wiser to how the DSGs work when stopped, footbrake on & no throttle, whether there is actually any benefit (or maybe harm!!) in going from D to N - I suspect there is benefit, so unless I discover otherwise later, I'll continue to go into N. Regarding situation B, driving in slow moving stop/start traffic, I've read here & heard one or 2 people with Ford DSGs comment, that they worry about creeping forward in traffic causing excessive wear in DSG, so surely it's best to try minimise the effects. I've been avoiding manual mode altogether up to now, so in traffic I'll begin to try to assess if going into Sport reduces the amount of gear changing, but maybe I should try using manual mode - a case of teaching old monkeys, new tricks...... Best of all, being retired, I've the luxury of choosing times that reduce the incidence of being in such circumstances. Meanwhile, maybe I should have added the following comment in situation B, from Source 1 (Josh Machine). -- If possible, it is better to drive at a speed greater than the vehicle default D1 gear idle speed (typically more than 10 km/h), so as to reduce the tension on the DSG gear selector forks.

OK e-Root, we all know there were umpteen DSG types over time, but only a few on your list apply to Karoq & I think all are 7 speed. I believe all UK DSG Karoqs have Stop/Start, Autohold and ESB, but I'd filtered out the first 2 features in situations A & B. I know you like those 2 features & in your circumstances understand why, but I and some others prefer mostly not to use them. So are you able to be more specific on how you deal with waiting at lights / junctions without using them + creeping in traffic & how this varies with the different DSG Karoqs - I suspect no difference, wet or dry clutches, but willing to be corrected. Maybe only a VAG DSG engineer can truly answer. Agreed the DSG references were generally rather old & covered a wide range of models - that is possibly a valid criticism, but unless we can be properly enlightened here, I reckon general points on DSG behaviour can be usefully infered from them and taken into account in one's driving style, particularly with situations A & B. Regarding the P position and the locking pawl, this person reckons there's more to it than you say "However, from a more technical perspective, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread - the parking lock mechanism is engaged purely mechanically via a 'Bowden' cable between the selector lever and the parking lock lever. And this cable is what actuates the parking lock. In a normal/standstill scenario, the cable can exert adequate tension via the in-built holding device to prevent the car from rolling away. However, in the case of a scenario in which there is sudden and overwhelming pressure on the parking lock/cable, the setup can go kaput and can cause serious damage to the associated gearbox element. This is best examplified by a classical case when somebody possibly rear-ends your vehicle when the car is in 'parking' mode. say, at a traffic signal by an idiot who is totally careless and ignorant about stopping in time." A bit more on this in situation E say, later. I'll have to try out S7 without cruise control in my 1.0 DG200 - I know as you say, it shows S7 when cruise is engaged and do suspect it does actually go into 7th, as on my longish M4/M25 journeys, one of my most economical runs was when I accidentally left the car in sport mode for half the motorway run - 53mpg. I'll have to look at the rev counter on the next long run using Cruise with sport & compare with 7th in D & cruise, but I'll postpone that while there's this petrol panic.

This thread occured to me, following an idle hour or so on Google, to see if there tips on refining the way the car starts from standstill - didn't get too far with that at first, but lots of other things soon emerged. That set me thinking that noting them here might lead to further useful comments + more detailed explanations from more knowledgable contributors. There isn't a separate DSG section in Briskoda, never mind on transmissions in general, so any Briskoda information there is on DSGs, is presumably scattered all over the place. One or two people on other forums revealed by the Googling suggested that it's beneficial to have some understanding of how DSGs work in order to get the best out of them. That seemed very sensible, so kicking off - overall, it is basically 2 gearboxes each with there associated clutch, all combined into one casing. One gearbox does 1st, 3rd, 5th & 7th, the other does 2nd, 4th 6th & reverse (I think I've put reverse in the write place). I hadn't even thought about that before. There's clearly a lot more to it but that will do for now. Moving on, here's summaries of the first 2 discussion points that emerged - with associated info sources at the end. In later messages, I could go on to introduce other aspects, should there be any interest. I wish there was some way of involving people who designed / developed VAG DSGs to verify some of the issues, as there isn't quite the build up years of widespread knowledge as for manuals or conventional Autos. I suspect it's no use asking Skoda UK, nor even dealers. Maybe specialist DSG repairers are a possible source of reliable info. A At Traffic Lights etc. if not using Stop/Start or Autohold if lwait likely to be more than a few seconds -- Move gear lever to Neutral & apply EPB (Electronic Parking Brake) - The Solenoid isn't energized and clutches inactive. However if at the end of the queue, use footbrake without or with EPB so anyone coming up behind sees you've stopped. (source 1) -- Don't put gear lever into Park as it puts the transmission to sleep. This + waking it up again causes wear. The transmission is not designed to be a brake, that's what brakes are for. Anyway, moving into Neutral is easier, just one notch instead of several. (sce 2) -- If left in D, but with the footbrake in use, I think all the box does is to bleed off the drive by slipping the clutch which is obviously not a good thing for the longevity of the clutch plate. (sce 3, person said this theory needs checking). -- However this last idea was contradicted in (sce 4) as the person says that the clutch is always disengaged when the brake pedal is applied with foot off throttle & he doesn't recommend going into neutral, particularly if Stop/Go is on - doesn't work in Neutral. Well, I wouldn't anyway bother going into Neutral if Stop/Go were operating & I'm generally unure what to make of (sce 4). B Crawling along in stop/go traffic -- Use Sport Mode to reduce the times the gearbox hunts up and down. Or go into first manually. (source 3) ## Sources 1. https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/technical-stuff/204672-dsg-demystified-all-you-need-know-about-vws-direct-shift-gearbox-5.html 2. https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...ml#post2164182 3. https://www.yetiownersclub.co.uk/threads/tips-for-using-dsg.8229/ 4. https://carjasoos.com/car-blog/avoid-these-things-in-dsg-transmission/

And thanks Heike - i missed that posting +it is a link to a useful detailed topic on this in the Skoda Superb section.

Thanks RootToot. I wonder if they're always blue!!!!! Maybe I'll look under my Karoq tomorrow. Enjoyed your previous message - response to J.R.'s rule 101 note.

What do transit blocks look like I wonder. Has anyone got any photos?

My fairly basic Karoq has a thinnish sheet of underbonnet insulation. Yes you hear the tapping when standing outside the car, more pronounced when engine is starting from cold for say 30secs. Inside the car doors shut, the noise isn't audible.

Not Really. That mild drone isn't at all loud, I'm just very fussy about noise. It emanates from the inherent resonant modes that all 3 & 4 cylinder engines suffer to a greater or lesser extent & only really noticeable when pushing the car uphill in Drive (DSG) at lowish revs, soon cured by flipping the selecter stick back into Sport. The engine doesn't feel weak and seems to suit the Karoq surprisingly well, particularly with the DSG, as some reviews and comments here on Briskoda have noted. It actually feels quite lively, with overtaking in Sport mode no problem, though clearly no racing car. Can't speak for the T-Roc 1.0. Actually, the sort of weights I'm adding to the shelf are minimal, compared to having a second person in the car and the car is nearly always at least half full of some stuff or other anyway.

Slightly off-topic again, as I'm prone to do, but regarding CJJE's comment and the solid shelf suppressing noise better than the roll-top one. I haven't experienced the roll top cover, but I actually don't find the solid shelf by itself ideal in this regard either, as it appears to have a sounding board effect (try thumping it from inside the car with all doors shut). To me it seems to pick up on a certain modest boom that emanates from the rear. Some time ago, I decided to experiment intially by weighting down the shelf with 2 heavyish car blankets and later a door mat with rubber backing in addition. Just recently I also decided to stiffen the shelf with timber framing screwed to the underside - screwed through the shelf material with washers & screw heads showing on top. The overall effect is now a marked reduction in low frequency thrumming both from rough roads and from a slight engine boom that is now much less between 1500 & 2000 rpm. Higher frequency road noise is less too. The low frequency noise in the car with unmodified shelf was more obvious due to the 1.0 DSG engine being so very quiet (apart from that rev range I mentioned), but road noise is now getting really rather subdued - even with Bridgestone Turanazas & 17" wheels on rough roads + less thudding on broken roads. I should add that I'm pobably overly sensitive to road noise and very few cars I've been in have been satisfactorily quiet in this respect, for me. I won't show any pics, as things don't look too pretty from the shelf underside at least, & anyway it's work in progress, still experimenting with the right amount of weight on rear shelf, to avoid resonating with noises from the rear - all good fun when things work out well. Also want to tidy up the cosmetics in due course. Apologies again for being off topic.

From what reviews say, the Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons would have been better in your situation, but winters clearly better still. Around London where we've had very little snow for several years, the Bridgstone Weather Control would probably suit me best as it's very good in the wet as well as comfy.

Even better go for All Weather Tyres. The following review compared 9 such tyres with what they described as one of the best & most comfortable summer tyres, which happened to be a Goodyear (Efficient Grip I think). All the AW tyres except for the Michelin CrossClimate Plus were more comfortable and quieter than that summer one, but the top choice overall seems to be either the Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons Gen3, or the Bridgestone Weather Control, the latter was a bit more comfortable, but the Goodyear was better in snow but not quite so good in rain. The Goodyears seem to wear well, but the Bridgestones may not. However the Bridgestone has now been superceededed by the Bridgestone Weather Control evo. I'm awaiting the 2021 version of this comparative review, to see how this new Bridgestone performs + there's a new version of the Michelin X-Climate due soon - I want to fit AW tyres to my Karoq, for better comfort as much as anything. https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2020-Tyre-Reviews-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm These reviews were done in a much lighter car & smaller wheel size - fairly standard Golf, but hopefully the conclusions will apply to most cars.

That's Impressive economy indeed Jasethekaroq for the 2litre DSG & 4wd at that - my 1.0 DSG 2wd doesn't do that much better. On my last run to Bristol (M25 + M4) it did actually manage 54mpg, my best yet, but that was in the middle of the day, temps around a sunny 22*C with a fair amount of traffic & no hold-ups. The return on Saturday morning leaving at 6:00am, temps around 13*C average for journey + little traffic slip streaming effect + some rain as I got closer to London, got around 47mpg. Around town varies so much 30-40mpg, depending on how many miles I do, but then I live towards the edge of built up areas, even if it is hilly.