Not meant to be an argument, just a new thread to discuss a comment Teflon Tom made in another thread.

"and to be perfectly frank there aint much you can do to make this thing handle well unless you put the engine in front of the rear axle"

I know he's wrong, but let's discuss!

hi dave, i must admit i don't know an awefull lot about these rear engined skoda's, i'm more into the front wheel drive cars.. i'm sure you've got a lot more experience with these than most people on here, but i still stand by what i said. there's absolutely no way the handling can be anywhere near good with the engine hung out behind the rear axle, a good solution could be to use a flat 4 engine to lower the centre of gravity, and i'm sure some decent dampers and springs can improve it greatly but it will always want to carry on in a straight line due to inertia from the weight of the engine...

if you are comparing like for like.. vw beetle?? then i doubt there are any better (or worse) cars handling wise than a old-school skoda.

in an ideal world i would definitely stick the engine in front of the rear axle mounted transversely to make the weight distribution more even

First define "handle well".

For cars with same size tyres all round:-

I would say that a well-handling car remains more or less neutral until roll angle and unbalanced mass effects cause one end to start drifting wide off-line. This should happen before the the roll couple moves outside the track dimension (see Suzuki "turnover" models) .It is true that an FWD car is much more likely to drift wide at the front, FE-RWD can do either and tend to be ruled mainly by geometric effects, and both mid and rear-engined cars are more likely to drift at the back, unless a strong geometric effect overcomes the the mass effect. It's true that the height of the CoG at the "heavy end" is a factor, but arguing that a light rear engine has more effect than a heavy front engine is just plain wrong.

Its such a wide debate its almost impossible to say which is best. I know that the old rear engined Skodas (particularly the later Estelles) can be made to handle beautifully although you will always have the fairly severe oversteer associated with the extra weight at the rear when it goes wrong. The Peugeot 205s that Tom mentions as a handling standard are equally scary on the lift off oversteer front which is much easier to get caught by. Having owned 55 cars now (including 9 old Skuds) I have a fair breadth of experience and a standard Estelle is no hot hatch in the handling dept, but then nor is a 1.1 Peugeot 205......but Skoda never really made the GTI version of the Estelle. I guess the closest they came was the Sport versions, but Ive not driven one so I cant judge.

I think Tom's initial statement is utterly ridiculous and I think Porsche are the perfect company to demonstrate that RERWD cars can be made to handle!

but Skoda never really made the GTI version of the Estelle. I guess the closest they came was the Sport versions, but Ive not driven one so I cant judge.

i think that's exactly the point, they aren't designed to go fast, hence why it has a 1300cc engine

I think Tom's initial statement is utterly ridiculous and I think Porsche are the perfect company to demonstrate that RERWD cars can be made to handle!

by all accounts the porcshe 911 was a complete dog handling wise, they were responsiible for nuerous deaths where they went sideways into something... i can only imagine they used a rerwd setup because it was cheaper to design and build as it was a legacy system kept over from when they used vw beetle axles and gearboxes on the 355 and 550 models, i admit that nowadays they have more or less perfectted the rear engine setup but that is with decades of delevopment and a huge amount of electronic gizmos

i think that's exactly the point, they aren't designed to go fast, hence why it has a 1300cc engine

and Peugeot didnt release the GTI straight away.....lots of cars werent designed to go fast (pretty much every Renault Gordini ever got his hands on) but it doesnt ean they dont/cant be made to handle!

You stated there wasnt much that could be done to make them handle......

(pretty much every Renault Gordini ever got his hands on) but it doesnt ean they dont/cant be made to handle!

omg, we had a 5 gordini turbo, that car was epic, but we could never made it run long enough in any one go to find out how well it handlled.. very similar era to the estelles and rapids with it's wet lined sidecam engine and troublesome pushrods... if you were behind it at night it looked like a blowtorch with a jet of blue flame out the exhaust pipe.

i honestly dont know why you guys are being so defensive over your rear engined cars, i'm not saying that it's a wheelbarrow or needs a rear heated window for when you have to push it or any other outdated cliche, i actually think the estelle that rolled into my workshop for an engine transplant is one of the coolest cars i've seen in ages, ii just don't think the handling will cut it in comparison to a more modern car... i mean lets face it, you lot are trying to compare a 20 year old tub made from recycled russian baked bean cans to something better..

I wasnt thinking of anything as new as the R5 Gordini (you dont seem to be familiar with older cars/marques!).......Gordinis finest work came before Renault took over his company. I am thinking of the likes of the R8 Gordini which is very similar in non Gordini form to the good old Estelle. Rear engined square fronted, pushrod liner engine......they are still quick today when set up. I got beaten by one at a hillclimb a few years ago (Forrestburn in 2006 to be precise) by several seconds and I was driving a 280bhp Renault Alpine turbo.

While youre mulling over the handling of the Estelle, you might want to check out the motorsport history associated with the car.....for a car that doesnt handle they did pretty well

Edited 22 September, 201015 yr by hawkeracing

ahh yes, the renault 8 gordini, when i worked for a renault specialist a few years ago one of the guys that i worked with had one, the one with the white stripes over the top.. gorgeous car.. had a really rare type 850 crossflow engine in there that i built up for him

Well there you go......and despite the rear engine they handle well too. Rear engine gives great traction and as long as the tail isnt too heavy (hence my concern at your iron block engine shenanigans) the snap oversteer can be compensated for with some careful setting up.

Tom, have you actually driven an Estelle or Rapid? I'd like to take you for a blast in my bog standard Rapid 136, I think you would be surprised.

I'll always be defensive regarding RWD Skodas, I've been driving them for over 20 years and they are so much better than most people think in all sorts of ways, especially handling. They aren't perfect, but there isn't any other car I want to drive every day.

However, there is a big difference in handling between an early narrow track swing axled Estelle with steering box and a late wide track semi trailing arm Estelle with rack and pinion steering....those early ones were quite scary at times!

Estelles generally handle better than Rapids due to less body flex.

yes i have driven a rapid, but not an estelle... interesting stuff about the different axle types, i must confess i haven't actually looked at this car very much because i've got a nasty knee injury at the mo, but it looks from the pictures like it has a swing axle.. bad times. :'(

i'm not saying that the car is bad tbh, i think they've become a lot cooler nowadays in a crazy eastern-block russian tank kind of way

and in reference to my iron block shenanigans, it wouldn't have been my first choice of engine tbh, it just so happened that i had it laying about gathering dust after i removed it from my pickup to fit a stroked version (1600) of the same-ish engine... I just wanted a simple quick reliable engine conversion and it saved me having to dump the engine in the nearest kiddies playground

do you know the best bit.. it's all irrelevant anyway... swmbo wouldn't be seen dead in that thing wether it handles well or not, and me and my older wiser brother are probably just going to thrash it to within an inch of it's life anyway until the gearbox blows up or until we are both dead.. i would really dearly like to mow down that mad old bint next door with it too, or her dog, or both simultaneously (going sideways preferably).. did i tell you the saga we had unloading this thing from the car trailer?? outrageous it was

You get double points for hitting her and the dog at the same time!

I had a Renault 5 Gordini Turbo (in black) It was the best fun you could have in a city of built up area. It was fast as hell and handled lovely. Anyone that says they handled awfull, quite clearly never owned one. It could accelerate faster than anything you have ever been in and could go around corners "like it was on rails"

I don't think the stability of our Skoda 120 even with 100-120bhp engine we are putting in it will make it that wayward unless I intend it to be, by driving it like I stole it say in the wet. I had a Volvo GLT saloon when I was a college student (out of choice! was very cheap) I had it powersliding around roundabout because I made it do it, not because I slipped on a banana skin.

Have any of you played Grand Turismo 5 or any of the game in series. I know its only a game but principal to my point is the same. You buy a car that you really admire or longed for, then you find when using it, it just isn't what you thought it would be. The brakes are wayward the steering is vague and it is just not as good as it looks. But after a time driving it you get to know all it's characteristics and quirks. I thought a new Corvette would be great. It is seriously fast, but you got to know how to brake in it and turn it. After playing with the setup I got it going faster than anything on the races and got it handling stop on through adjusting the way I drove it. You will get use to braking earlier, you know how to steer it through different corners and how to use the throttle without spinning it. This is true in real life in real cars.

RWD Skodas are fine when your used to the characteristics of a RWD Skoda. They are built like tanks they are probably radioactive, the brakes are rubbish but adequate to stop it, it's got an engine in the most efficient place pushing the car from the back. We don't really use cross ply tyres anymore, which is what wrecked the cars sales in the olden days, when it was reported as being the most dangerous car ever invented.

Edited 23 September, 201015 yr by Czech Bra Size

Brakes can be brilliant.....you just need to get modern parts. I have a set of drilled and grooved front discs with Ferodo DS2500 fitted and it is as sharp as a modern car....it didnt cost usual Skoda type prices though but its worth it

I think solid discs are better and cheaper - there is more of the disc in contact with the pad. that's just me tho

drilled discs are prone to cracking so you'll never catch me using them

drilled discs are prone to cracking so you'll never catch me using them

Theyre Black Diamond.....they wont crack. The braking on the car is far more impressive than the forward motion!

is depends on how they were heat treated after they were drilled, the holes make stress points on the disc, certain manuifacturers do iit iin different ways... grooved discs can be quite usefull though

i honestly dont know why you guys are being so defensive over your rear engined cars, i'm not saying that it's a wheelbarrow or needs a rear heated window for when you have to push it or any other outdated cliche, i actually think the estelle that rolled into my workshop for an engine transplant is one of the coolest cars i've seen in ages, ii just don't think the handling will cut it in comparison to a more modern car... i mean lets face it, you lot are trying to compare a 20 year old tub made from recycled russian baked bean cans to something better..

Er, at least one of us doesn't have a rear-engined Skoda. The single worst-handling car I've ever driven though was one of your "beloved" FEFWD cars, an Au'tin Maestro.

As for Porsche, the very early SWB "light bumper" 911s were treachorous, but so were many 1960s cars. Inside of 2 years, the balance was improved by the LWB "heavy bumper" cars, and within 10 years, there was the Carrera 2.7RS, which is still regarded as a good handling car (with no electronnicy brakes or traction controls).

is depends on how they were heat treated after they were drilled, the holes make stress points on the disc, certain manuifacturers do iit iin different ways... grooved discs can be quite usefull though

How, and even if for some of the cheaper "fleabay specials".

Drilled and groved discs are for show in my mind. Yes the dust might increase fade in braking - but that technology was designed for Formula 1 cars. I doubt the fade is sufficiently noticable on a moderately fast production car.

Drilled and groved discs are for show through the car's alloys only - they look alright but thats it!. The fact is that there is more metal in contact with the pad on solid discs

Edited 24 September, 201015 yr by Czech Bra Size

Drilled and groved discs are for show in my mind. Yes the dust might increase fade in braking - but that technology was designed for Formula 1 cars. I doubt the fade is sufficiently noticable on a moderately fast production car.

Drilled and groved discs are for show through the car's alloys only - they look alright but thats it!. The fact is that there is more metal in contact with the pad on solid discs

Oh I think pretty much everyone who races a car would disagree! They help prevent brake fade by discapating heat for starters.

The fact is that there is more metal in contact with the pad on solid discs

it's not a simple case of more surface area = more stopping power... when the gas given off by the pad friction material gets superheated or cannot escape it can liquiify the surface of the pad and cause brake fade.. they are in fact proven to work and the leading edge of the groove serves to 'clean' the brake pad too.. but there is also the negative affects associated with them too. 1 expensive, 2. increased pad wear , 3 more noise

Oh I think pretty much everyone who races a car would disagree! They help prevent brake fade by discapating heat for starters.

yes true... but in my opnion it's not necessary to use them on a road going car, you will pretty much never get the brakes hot enough to make advantage of them

yes true... but in my opnion it's not necessary to use them on a road going car, you will pretty much never get the brakes hot enough to make advantage of them

Depend how hard youre going to drive. Nice B road with no traffic and you can soon cook a set of pads!