Yes you are right I spoke to one a while back when he came out to my daughter and he reckoned they were miles better than the volvos they had previously...

Which also use Haldex.

Sadly not ;-) Re-read again. 4WD and AWD is different story, unless modern marketing didn't create something new from facts :-D

 

Sounds to me as though you should be in marketing!

 

Four wheel drive (4WD) refers to vehicles that have a transfer case, not a differential, between the front and rear axles, meaning that the front and rear drive shafts will be locked together when engaged. This provides maximum torque transfer to the axle with the most traction, but can cause binding in high traction turning situations. They are also either full-time or part-time 4WD selectable. 4WD is not intended for high speeds without a limited-slip mechanism.

 

All wheel drive (AWD) or "permanent multiple-wheel drive" refers to a drive train system that includes a differential between the front and rear drive shafts. This is normally coupled with some sort of anti-slip technology that will allow differentials to spin at different speeds, but still maintain the ability to transfer torque from one wheel in case of loss of traction at that wheel. Typical AWD systems work well on all surfaces, but are not intended for all consumers.

 

Individual-wheel drive (IWD) was coined to identify those electric vehicles whereby each wheel is driven by its own individual electric motor. This system essentially has inherent characteristics that would be generally attributed to four-wheel drive systems like the distribution of the available power to the wheels. However, because of the inherent characteristics of electric motors, torque can be negative, as seen in the Rimac Concept One and SLS AMG Electric. This can have drastic effects, as in better handling in tight corners.

 

Basically all of the above are, yes, you guessed it 4x4  

 

Four-by-four (4x4) refers to the general class of vehicles. The first figure is normally the total wheels (more precisely, axle ends, which may have multiple wheels), and the second, the number that are powered. Syntactically, 4x2 means a four-wheel vehicle that transmits engine power to only two axle-ends: the front two in front-wheel drive or the rear two in rear-wheel drive.

 

Not a hint of marketing in sight

Edited 12 December, 201411 yr by silver1011

I'm impressed silver, that's actually quite good

Theoretically, it is four wheel drive. What I was trying to point out that there is not many AWD cars and 4WD. 4WD is usually on off-road cars with on/off mechanical/electronic diff lock. 4WD usually good for mud games. you can't turn this car too much, unless you like to destroy transmission.

 

Haldex is not AWD nor 4WD. It is ... there is no reasonable word. You have just open diffs and Haldex. When one wheel slips, Haldex is on with lag. ECU reduces torgue and ABS/EDL brakes wheel slips. Is it AWD or 4WD? Is it like calling pope a porn star.

 

Quattro is an other marketing bull**** in modern days.

 

If I am not mistaking, Audi was first to introduce real mechanical action/reaction all wheel drive called QUATTRO. Torsen center diff with LSD on axles. Simple and perfect system.

 

Then came Subaru and as usually brought the revolution - Japanese engineers know meaning of the BEST. BEST = OPTIMAL.

 

Today, there is no Quattro Audi - pehaps RS models.

 

All modern - so called AWD, 4Motion, Quattro  or whatever they like to confuse people with - have nothing to do with original 4WD, AWD design.

 

Yes, it works in some cases, it is cheap - composite bow shoots too but you can't kill anyone 4 km away ;-) question is do you want a car without wheels or do you want complete car?

 

I used to have Subaru Impreza with classical viscous coupling - lots of fun but not very good for racing abuse. Fortunately, STi models have Torsen diffs ;-)

 

As far as I know, there is only two real AWD four wheel drive cars - Subaru Impreza, MItsubishi Lancer EVO and perhaps some Audi RS models.

 

Anything else - electronic magic.

 

I can slip/slide the wheels during the heavy braking and ABS won't even notice. I can slide Haldex and electronic will be in shock.

 

It is all action/reaction based and control units have preset threshold. Proactive Haldex - good joke. Unless there is action, there cannot be reaction. Even we - racing drivers - don't know when car slides out of control. One wonder how electronics - based on collected data from F1, DTM, GT racing (in other words data from circuit monkeys) - knows exactly when wheels slip at perfect time.

 

Of course mechanical/physical system have limits - rally cars pushed this further into electronic controlled cars. Electronically controlled central diff and axle diffs able to provide torque where is needed.

 

Use common sense, how braking of wheel can reproduce torque transfer to an other slipping wheel?

 

We can continue about mechanical engineering and physical laws.

 

Any questions?

Edited 12 December, 201411 yr by sniper29a

Any questions?

 

No questions, I think those were answered (in English) in post #27.

 

Just one observation though, you were wrong...

 

STILL SURPRISED WHY YOU DIDN'T GET ANYWHERE ;-)

 

This has nothing to do with if the car is AWD or 4WD.

 

The Scout is a 4x4, and a good one at that.

Edited 12 December, 201411 yr by silver1011

Lets not reinvent the wheel, all has been already said by great people.

 

"Human stupidity and Universe is infinite but I am not sure about the second one." ~ Albert Einstein

 

 

 

This has nothing to do with if the car is AWD or 4WD.

 

The Scout is a 4x4, and a good one at that.

 

Agree and would be awesome if fitted with winter tyres. Any 4wd/awd will struggle in snow or ice as the system will always take the easiest route and spin the wheels, This is not fiction its fact! UNLESS fitted with diff locks wether they be electronic or mechanical, My 15 plus years at the 4x4 specialist proved one thing they can all be improved on with the right boots fitted

Lets not reinvent the wheel, all has been already said by great people.

 

"Human stupidity and Universe is infinite but I am not sure about the second one." ~ Albert Einstein

WTF think you need to take your meds son lol

WTF think you need to take your meds son lol

Thank you for an advice sir - it sounds credible from a person who believes Haldex system is AWD ;-)

Thank you for an advice sir - it sounds credible from a person who believes Haldex system is Awd

 

you need to get your facts right! as ive made no mention of this most of my comments  have been about tyres!!

Thank you for an advice sir - it sounds credible from a person who believes Haldex system is AWD ;-)

 

It's 4x4.

 

Just in case you missed it, see post #27.

All I see that there is presented facts and technology.

 

And we got down to name calling and joking.

 

I feel that people are confused about marketing lies and if someone presents how it really works - he is crucified :-D

 

Use common sense - if you buy **** tires and you have worn dampers as most people have. How do you expect your car to stick on to surface?

 

I use Continetal Winter Contact all year. It is best compromise and not bad winter tyre. There is no really proper commercial winter tyre.

 

Use FIA Ice tyres ;-) You don't need AWD, 4D anymore. Just LSD (Limited Slip Diff)

It's 4x4.

 

Just in case you missed it, see post #27.

Still, didn't understand four wheel drive concept, ha?

 

It has got four wheels right and how many is propelled? one axle and you have to hope, one wheel won't slip ;-)

 

If you want to call it right It is 4x0 because you never know what starts to slip ;-) It doesn't transfer torque, it just limits torque ;-)

 

Or lets say it is "4x1or1x1or1 if lucky" :-D

 

I wonder how you can make such a long thread about simple technology as four wheel drive and still not understand basic principle.

 

You have copied Wiki about four wheel drive. Re-read it - how many axles are driven ;-)

 

Then explain me how it could be 4x4 ;-)

I have to say I was a bit disappointed with my Mk II Scout admittedly on summer tyres in snow. I did get stuck on a steepish icy hill but one bit that caught me out was the limitation in the differentials and EDL the Scout has. It has open mechanical differentials front and rear, EDL on the front only, and then the Haldex coupling to take power to the back.

What this means in practice is that the car will shuffle power between the front wheels using the EDL, but if both are on ice then there is little traction and EDL cuts in constantly, but then only one wheel at the back needs to be on ice and it will spin away with no attempt to control this.

The system sounds much more capable in the marketing blurb, but it has some limitations in practice. I did put some winter tyres on and it was pretty much unstoppable after that.

I have to say I was a bit disappointed with my Mk II Scout admittedly on summer tyres in snow. I did get stuck on a steepish icy hill but one bit that caught me out was the limitation in the differentials and EDL the Scout has. It has open mechanical differentials front and rear, EDL on the front only, and then the Haldex coupling to take power to the back.

What this means in practice is that the car will shuffle power between the front wheels using the EDL, but if both are on ice then there is little traction and EDL cuts in constantly, but then only one wheel at the back needs to be on ice and it will spin away with no attempt to control this.

The system sounds much more capable in the marketing blurb, but it has some limitations in practice. I did put some winter tyres on and it was pretty much unstoppable after that.

Saw a range rover overtaken by a corsa in similar circumstances. I think that tells you the importance of tyres over number of driven wheels.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

I have to say I was a bit disappointed with my Mk II Scout admittedly on summer tyres in snow. I did get stuck on a steepish icy hill but one bit that caught me out was the limitation in the differentials and EDL the Scout has. It has open mechanical differentials front and rear, EDL on the front only, and then the Haldex coupling to take power to the back.

What this means in practice is that the car will shuffle power between the front wheels using the EDL, but if both are on ice then there is little traction and EDL cuts in constantly, but then only one wheel at the back needs to be on ice and it will spin away with no attempt to control this.

The system sounds much more capable in the marketing blurb, but it has some limitations in practice. I did put some winter tyres on and it was pretty much unstoppable after that.

If you have real AWD or 4WD - you are keep going if you can drive. Every disbalance is quickly levelled out. Wanna drift - possible with AWD. All you need to know is how to use momentum before central diff kicks in ;-)

 

Only time I was stuck with Subaru - I lost control and ended up deep in snow on the belly ;-)

 

Little correction - it doesn't shuffle power. ECU cuts of torque and ABS breaks wheels ;-) There is no transfer of torque to the slipping wheel. You end up with accelerator on the floor, everything is breaking, spinning and car slides down the hill :-D It is "4x4" Haldex style ;-)

Edited 12 December, 201411 yr by sniper29a

The Evoque fitted with the Gen 1V Haldex is an impressive bit of kit.  To be honest I'm more a fan of the series/defender/RRC sort of Land Rover, and find the looks of the Evoque a bit off putting.

 

I recently went on one of the Land Rover Experience off-road training days and the capabilities of an Evoque are pretty damn good. 

It had rained all the previous week and the ground (at Rockingham) was very soggy.  The Evoque however would go to most of the places a Defender would, limited only by having standard road tyres.  The Defender could go through deeper mud and wade through deeper water.  You guessed, fitted with horny off road tyres and equipped with a bit more clearance.

The first section was thick mud over clay, absolutely no problem, just let the car trickle through, minimal steering input. 

Off camber, ie 30degree side slopes on the mud, no problem. 

1:1 descents in mud, no problem, feet off and let the car do the work. 

Hill start? In mud.  Same again.  Absolutely no problem.Drive up a 45 degree slope and stop.  The hill start program holds the car - press the accelerator and away you go, just remembering to ease off over the crest.

To say the Evoque exceeded my expectations is an understatement.  It did everything I remember being able to do in a series all those years ago, but with with levels of ease and refinement which equal most ordinary cars.

 

All the time it was totally secure, and despite all the going and stopping being under the control of the abs and electronics, it was all so seamless.  The only limit to grip and traction was the ordinary summer tyres. 

In winter, given appropriate tyres, it would go anywhere any sane person could reasonable expect to go.  Ground clearance and tyres permitting.

 

You do not, most definitely do not, need mechanical diffs to achieve complete control.  So 20th century.

 

Sure the Scout does not have all the bells and whistles which the Range Rover engineers have provided, but the Evoque does show what the Haldex is capable of. 

A Scout with a bit of Range Rover software? 

The Evoque fitted with the Gen 1V Haldex is an impressive bit of kit.  To be honest I'm more a fan of the series/defender/RRC sort of Land Rover, and find the looks of the Evoque a bit off putting.

 

I recently went on one of the Land Rover Experience off-road training days and the capabilities of an Evoque are pretty damn good. 

It had rained all the previous week and the ground (at Rockingham) was very soggy.  The Evoque however would go to most of the places a Defender would, limited only by having standard road tyres.  The Defender could go through deeper mud and wade through deeper water.  You guessed, fitted with horny off road tyres and equipped with a bit more clearance.

The first section was thick mud over clay, absolutely no problem, just let the car trickle through, minimal steering input. 

Off camber, ie 30degree side slopes on the mud, no problem. 

1:1 descents in mud, no problem, feet off and let the car do the work. 

Hill start? In mud.  Same again.  Absolutely no problem.Drive up a 45 degree slope and stop.  The hill start program holds the car - press the accelerator and away you go, just remembering to ease off over the crest.

To say the Evoque exceeded my expectations is an understatement.  It did everything I remember being able to do in a series all those years ago, but with with levels of ease and refinement which equal most ordinary cars.

 

All the time it was totally secure, and despite all the going and stopping being under the control of the abs and electronics, it was all so seamless.  The only limit to grip and traction was the ordinary summer tyres. 

In winter, given appropriate tyres, it would go anywhere any sane person could reasonable expect to go.  Ground clearance and tyres permitting.

 

You do not, most definitely do not, need mechanical diffs to achieve complete control.  So 20th century.

 

Sure the Scout does not have all the bells and whistles which the Range Rover engineers have provided, but the Evoque does show what the Haldex is capable of. 

A Scout with a bit of Range Rover software?

As pointed out before, with the correct rubber the limitation of the scout is the ground clearance.

  I've owned both a Subaru and a now have a Scout. Its difficult to compare the two because without driving the two on the same tyres on the same surface at the same time in the same conditions there are too many variables.The Subaru certainly isn't the gift to AWD it's being made out to be. Yes great for drifting, so what? It felt twitchy and unstable on a very icy road. I've never felt that with the scout it always feels composed. I have a house on a hill on a mountain which always has snow in winter sometimes over a foot deep, and the Subaru although normally did an good job would certainly sometimes fail me with 3 wheels doing nothing and one wheel spinning away going nowhere. 

Edited 13 December, 201411 yr by paddypaws

  I've owned both a Subaru and a now have a Scout. Its difficult to compare the two because without driving the two on the same tyres on the same surface at the in the same conditions there are too many variables.The Subaru certainly isn't the gift to AWD it's being made out to be. Yes great for drifting, so what? It felt twitchy and unstable on a very icy road. I've never felt that with the scout it always feels composed. I have a house on  a hill on a mountain which always has snow in winter sometimes deep, and the Subaru although normally did an good job would certainly sometimes fail me with 3 wheels doing nothing and one wheel spinning away going nowhere. 

A car is reflection of driver - every car is only as good as its weakest link.

 

Many people drive Subarus without oil in diffs and then complain it doesn't work, diff housing is overheating and so on - you name it ;-)

 

It is always down to an ultimate question in Universe - WHAT HAPPEN, IF YOU REALISE THAT EVERYTHING IS YOUR FAULT?

 

I lived in UK for 6.5 years - YOU HAVE HILLS? :-D Good joke. Come to Austria, I show you hills - guess what, I can get almost anywhere with just EDL and FWD ;-)

Edited 13 December, 201411 yr by sniper29a

A car is reflection of driver - every car is only as good as its weakest link.

 

Many people drive Subarus without oil in diffs and then complain it doesn't work, diff housing is overheating and so on - you name it ;-)

 

It is always down to an ultimate question in Universe - WHAT HAPPEN, IF YOU REALISE THAT EVERYTHING IS YOUR FAULT?

 

I lived in UK for 6.5 years - YOU HAVE HILLS? :-D Good joke. Come to Austria, I show you hills - guess what, I can get almost anywhere with just EDL and FWD ;-)

You Really do think you know it all don't so you arrogant! Wrong on all accounts. I have had a house high in the French Alps on steep roads that are just tracks.

I have 30 years experience of driving in terrible conditions there and have driven both cars extensively. The Subaru failed me end of. The Scout never has. For fun the Subaru wins, and  felt like it was on rails in the dry, but if you want to get up a snowy hill or negotiate an icy road safely the Scout wins hands down.

Edited 13 December, 201411 yr by paddypaws

Sniper, your information is way out of date. The current and previous versions of Haldex do not just sit idle waiting for wheels to spin, they lock the clutch based on other factors such as throttle position and vehicle inclination. I can't say for Land Rover's Haldex 3, as I've not looked into that, but I'd expect it to be equally capable since its was used in Freelanders for years. I believe even Haldex 2 took throttle into account, but as the pump was powered by the propshaft rotating, it didn't have the same ability to lock for takeoff.

 

Also, my Subaru has a multiplate clutch coupling between the front and rear axles (an output comes out of each end of the gearbox, one into the front diff, the other into the coupling) which is lockable with a button in the cabin. It is also always partly locked as the normal balance is a 60/40 distribution, unless the computer decides otherwise.

 

Complaining Haldex is rubbish based on V1 of it just makes you look a fool.

Subarus subarus subarus, If they are that good why havnt  or dont the fast response ambulance service use them instead of the scout? I will tell you why its because they wouldnt take the punishment like the scout,  Having direct contact with the fast response teams i get first hand feedback from them (As we carry out all the repairs on them) and they have had fords vauxhalls and even vovlo and they ALL (yes you read it right "ALL") say the scout is by far the best! And that is from the horses mouth not some read about bull muck... 

To the OP, its certainly down to the tyres but the system is surprisingly capable. My Yeti (same haldex system as your scout) has been to Switzerland, Germany, Austria, French alps..... And never failed to impress on the slippery stuff. Only thing is, it wears winter rubber. Around germany and switzerland ive also been followed by my german friend in his 330d touring - synonymous in this country for their inability in the snow. He's never had an issue but again runs winter rubber.

The yeti is extremely capable. Ignore the misinformation in this thread tough. Generation 5 and even 4 of Alex don't require slip from the front before they pass power to the rear axle. They are also locked in awd from sand still and monitor the throttle pedal for aggressive acceleration and at that point preempt and move the power around I stead of waiting for that spinning scenario.

You Really do think you know it all don't so you arrogant! Wrong on all accounts. I have had a house high in the French Alps on steep roads that are just tracks.

I have 30 years experience of driving in terrible conditions there and have driven both cars extensively. The Subaru failed me end of. The Scout never has. For fun the Subaru wins, and  felt like it was on rails in the dry, but if you want to get up a snowy hill or negotiate an icy road safely the Scout wins hands down.

Interesting sir. I have just 17 years of , mostly, racing experience. I was a driving instructor in the army on 4-8WD trucks, cars. I was in top 10 in amateur Scottish karting National Cup. I've easily won a Driver of Day at Knockhill Rally experience. I travel 30k km every year, yet I can drive in mountain with just FWD Skoda Fabia. I've traveled in Scottish Highlands with Subaru a never had problem on icy, snowy road with summer tires with only one exception.

 

 

It makes you think - there must be something wrong with your claims. As I've said in post 45 - Every car is only as good as its weakest link.