First and foremost is that people trying to understand EV,s or discuss them is that FAST Charging is pretty slow just quicker than SLOW charging,

as in 7 kw or maybe 11 kw AC chargers.

 

Rapid charging is still not that Fast or Rapid if 22- 43 AC or 50 kW DC. 

 

The Park & Rides and car park full of 'destination' which is slow chargers need built and well as with Rapid & Ultra Rapid and with Public Transport right there but also toilets.

No point millions spent on Solar Canopies, Battery Storage & Charger and just a Bus Ticket office with 2 toilets which is closed.

eg Stirling Park & Ride.

 

 

Edited 16 June, 20232 yr by toot

56 minutes ago, SteveTheElder said:

I’m not yet convinced we’re at a tipping point, there is a huge way to go before an EV is practical for many. Infrastructure is the primary limiting factor, followed by charge time.

 

A significant proportion of car owners have only street parking, and from my experience little chance of parking anywhere near their own front door. This makes them totally dependent on public charging stations with no option for a low rate domestic tariff of [their own] solar charging. And not everyone has an option to charge at work, again forcing charging at public stations. And if those are in the Park and Ride, then it’ll need to be there all day so others can’t access the charger.

There is much noise made about fast charging from high power outlets, but my understanding is that fast charging is detrimental to battery life and in-car systems restrict the number of sequential fast charges.

 

As yet, I haven’t found a non biased (without vested interest) assessment of how green or environment friendly an EV is compared to ICE vehicles are. Yes, at the exhaust/emissions level on the road an EV will be cleaner, but what about whole life, from raw materials to scrap/recycling?

 

At some point in the future (not too distant I hope) the offshore grid will be commissioned enabling the wind generated power from the north, west, and offshore to be distributed across the whole of the UK. This is essential for the increase in demand for electricity from EVs and the switch from gas heating.

 

I also wonder if the political drive would be better directed at massive investment in affordable and accessible public transport, reducing the demand for private vehicles. Surely we shouldn’t need as many cars (ICE or EV) in the UK.

 

I think you raise some very good points here @SteveTheElder.

 

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is that the UK population is growing rapidly.

In 2022, we had a net increase of about 600,000 people into the UK. Most of these were adults, many of whom will want personal transport. That's over half a million additional people in one year, a new high but it's been increasing in the 100,000s per year for some years now.

With increased population density, the need for providing infrastructure for personal transport increases, and with multiple occupancy in houses becoming the norm, it will be difficult to meet the need for EV charging.

I've seen the idea of "15 minute cities" being proposed, presumably as a way of reducing personal transport used. LTNs (low traffic neighbourhoods) have been trialled in the UK, and while there are some supporters, there are also people who object to them, sometimes violently.

 

It's not just about logistics.

 

Already there are reports of arguments over charge points. At the moment, EV ownership is largely comprised of middle-class early adopters. When EV ownership filters down to other demographics, I suspect we will see less genteel resolutions to who gets to charge their car first. I also suspect we will get charging ghettos, where leaving an EV to charge will be a risk akin to leaving a Golf R in an unlit road on a council estate in Birmingham. I also suspect we will encounter a lot more EV-related crime, of one sort or another.

 

It's all well and good for affluent middle-class people in nice areas with off-road parking and charging, to have lofty ideas about how things would work if we simply had enough money and the will to make them work, but they seem to always forget the human factor. That, despite their belief that doing things their way would be "progress", some people don't like being told what to do by the great and the good, however well-intentioned.

 

 

 

Many early adopters are disabled people getting cars on lease from Motability and chargers installed and for £10 a day they have their transport and home or public charging.

 

Plenty middle class or any class have homes with no off road parking but maybe a 'Parking Permit' for on street parking and still can not get parked near their home.

eg Aberdeen and many many other places.

Aberdeen's public charging is pathetic.

 

It really is pointless the discussion on how easy or cheap it is for home charging & off street parking and charging because if so then good.

That is not more than 1/2 of the UK's car drivers or trades people / commercial drivers though.

It is those that are not those with home charging and off street parking / charging or nearby public charging or ease of charging while travelling that require solutions & infrastructure. 

And not just Motorway / Trunk route travellers / drivers.

1 hour ago, EnterName said:

I'll assume you're operating in good faith, but my gut reaction is "Are you kidding me!?"

 

To fully answer your question will take this thread way off topic. But to address "Problems arise when data is distorted or withheld" I'll simply point you to the claims for vaccine efficacy, and happily that same issue covers the second point "a policed consensus, from which deviation is not permitted", to which I'll refer you to the screenshot I DM'd you some time ago.

No, I'm not operating in good faith. I have been through the scientific process, have many friends in the field of academia. I believe in the scientific process. 

I don't view outlier data as evidence against establish consensus unless many peer reviewed papers support this view. 

 

No, let's not muddle the waters with other controversial topics. Anything to actually support your statements regarding climate change? 

 

10 hours ago, J.R. said:

The average household figure of 8kw a day sounds low given you estimate a heat pump heating system at between 24 and 72kwh per day, winter months only of course.

 

The 8kw will be the households with a gas supply, the very thing that is being phased out (new gas boilers etc) in favour of heat pumps and thermodynamic hot water cylinders.

 

How many hours will it take to charge your Zoe battery on wheels which is going to heat your house? I suppose you wont be able to drive anywhere in it during winter without your house getting cold and using peak rate electricity, will we see scrap EV's littering peoples driveways and front gardens in future being used as energy stores? - The doasyoulikeys will soon thin those out!!!!

8 kWh is current average, yes, with gas central heating.

Additional 41 kWh is said to be average for heating cold winter days. Very believable, as my house uses 100-120 kWh of gas during coldest days, ASHP are about 300% efficient, so around 40 kWh sounds about right. 

 

There is 2 options: 

1 - get a big enough battery to cover most days, for example 20 kWh should be enough to cover most days except coldest winter days 

2 - get a different electricity tariff, designed for heat pump https://octopus.energy/smart/cosy-octopus/

Quote

Day rate:   33.98p / kWh

Cosy rate (04:00 - 07:00 & 13:00 - 16:00):    20.39p / kWh

Peak rate (16:00 - 19:00):   54.37p / kWh

Standing charge:   42.01p / day

So only need a small 3 kWh battery to tide over the few peak hours. A good insulated house can also work as heat battery, heating up the house just before 4pm and turn the heat pump off until 7pm. 

 

The idea is that if driving anywhere, no one wouldn't be in the house  

As we have 2 cars, Model Y and Leaf 24 kWh. When V2H is installed, Leaf is only going to be used for 40min away school runs or other local errant. If wife is home, the car is home functioning as battery. The MY will be used by myself for anything else. 

 

The V2H inverter is 6 kW. So if I upgrade to a 40 kWh Leaf to support heat pump (don't have yet), it will take 6 hours off peak will be able to charge 36 kWh. 

 

V2H/G isn't widely available yet due to CCS standard messing about. Only available with Nissan Leaf. So entirely possible to see Leaf being SORN and left on driveway as home battery. 

3 hours ago, SteveTheElder said:

I’m not yet convinced we’re at a tipping point, there is a huge way to go before an EV is practical for many. Infrastructure is the primary limiting factor, followed by charge time.

 

A significant proportion of car owners have only street parking, and from my experience little chance of parking anywhere near their own front door. This makes them totally dependent on public charging stations with no option for a low rate domestic tariff of [their own] solar charging. And not everyone has an option to charge at work, again forcing charging at public stations. And if those are in the Park and Ride, then it’ll need to be there all day so others can’t access the charger.

There is much noise made about fast charging from high power outlets, but my understanding is that fast charging is detrimental to battery life and in-car systems restrict the number of sequential fast charges.

 

As yet, I haven’t found a non biased (without vested interest) assessment of how green or environment friendly an EV is compared to ICE vehicles are. Yes, at the exhaust/emissions level on the road an EV will be cleaner, but what about whole life, from raw materials to scrap/recycling?

 

At some point in the future (not too distant I hope) the offshore grid will be commissioned enabling the wind generated power from the north, west, and offshore to be distributed across the whole of the UK. This is essential for the increase in demand for electricity from EVs and the switch from gas heating.

 

I also wonder if the political drive would be better directed at massive investment in affordable and accessible public transport, reducing the demand for private vehicles. Surely we shouldn’t need as many cars (ICE or EV) in the UK.

 

 

We the UK or we the world ?  

 

Many countries of the world are way ahead of us for several reasons.

 

3 hours ago, SteveTheElder said:

I’m not yet convinced we’re at a tipping point, there is a huge way to go before an EV is practical for many. Infrastructure is the primary limiting factor, followed by charge time.

 

A significant proportion of car owners have only street parking, and from my experience little chance of parking anywhere near their own front door. This makes them totally dependent on public charging stations with no option for a low rate domestic tariff of [their own] solar charging. And not everyone has an option to charge at work, again forcing charging at public stations. And if those are in the Park and Ride, then it’ll need to be there all day so others can’t access the charger.

There is much noise made about fast charging from high power outlets, but my understanding is that fast charging is detrimental to battery life and in-car systems restrict the number of sequential fast charges.

 

As yet, I haven’t found a non biased (without vested interest) assessment of how green or environment friendly an EV is compared to ICE vehicles are. Yes, at the exhaust/emissions level on the road an EV will be cleaner, but what about whole life, from raw materials to scrap/recycling?

 

At some point in the future (not too distant I hope) the offshore grid will be commissioned enabling the wind generated power from the north, west, and offshore to be distributed across the whole of the UK. This is essential for the increase in demand for electricity from EVs and the switch from gas heating.

 

I also wonder if the political drive would be better directed at massive investment in affordable and accessible public transport, reducing the demand for private vehicles. Surely we shouldn’t need as many cars (ICE or EV) in the UK.

There's a few good points. I strongly agree charging infrastructure is the primary limiting factor and need massive investment in public transport rather than current focus on private vehicles. The need for large grid connections (and thus investment, jobs, opportunities) to deliver renewable power throughout the country is also an excellent point. 

 

But let's put some of other points into perspective: 

 

Regarding off-street parking, I've done some digging for exact numbers and multiple sources say majority of residential properties do have off-street parking: 

 

Rapid charging can be detrimental to battery life, on small number of models. A well thermal controlled car would not have any problem solely rapid charged. The repeated rapid charging issue is only present in very small number of models, mainly Leaf 40 kWh due to absolutely zero thermal management. But it is an issue for repeated rapid charging in quick succession. Using it like a petrol car, rapid charging every few days would not trigger this problem. 

 

Unbiased lifecycle assessment: 

This report commissioned by UK DfT: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/lifecycle-analysis-of-uk-road-vehicles

This peer reviewed paper, published in scientific journal: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364032122000867 

This US EPA's EV myth busting page, referencing other peer reviewed sources: https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths 

All say the same thing: that BEV greatly reduces CO2 emission compared to fossil fuel cars. Even with today's grid power sources and are set to improve as the grid become cleaner.... without needing to buy new vehicle. 

 

 

  

1 hour ago, EnterName said:

In 2022, we had a net increase of about 600,000 people into the UK.

That's an increase of less than 1%, UK population is 67 mil. Much lower than net population change during the baby boomer years. All numbers need perspective, can't just pick numbers that suit your narrative.  (for example the net population change and the CO2 reduction percentage) 

Edited 16 June, 20232 yr by wyx087
Added last quote

My company, until recently, owned Source London and they have many street chargers. Generally not in lamp post but stand alone posts which use single or three phase AC power to charge.  We sold the business to Total who took it on.  The posts are quite valuable, particularly the three phase ones and there are strict rules on how well protected ie cannot be knocked over by some car badly parking and knocking the post so quite a engineering and electrical task putting these in.

 

May become less needed as EV car ranges continue to rise with the improved battery tech and drivers only need to charge at home and get the super cheap lecky via tariffs such as Octopus GO, Agile, Intelligent etc where they may get the energy for almost free or even be paid to take it.    

https://paperearn.com/free-electricity-in-the-uk/

https://octopus.energy/agile/

Price plunge where it goes negative.

 

Edited 16 June, 20232 yr by lol-lol

53 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Regarding off-street parking, I've done some digging for exact numbers and multiple sources say majority of residential properties do have off-street parking: 

Stats may well indicate that, but they are no good, for example, for the good people in parts of Cardiff where terraces of houses each not much wider than a car is long are divided in to three or more flats with the likelihood of at least one car per flat. And these are not student houses. Some days I know people who had to park two streets away.

 

2 minutes ago, SteveTheElder said:

Stats may well indicate that, but they are no good, for example, for the good people in parts of Cardiff where terraces of houses each not much wider than a car is long are divided in to three or more flats with the likelihood of at least one car per flat. And these are not student houses. Some days I know people who had to park two streets away.

Of course the stats say one thing and people's experience say another. I can only speak from gernalised stats to say that majority seems to have the means to recharge using their own off-street parking.

 

Got to remember even with just 1 driveway space, it can support many cars within the household. My household functioned perfectly fine with 1 EV charge point shared between 2 EVs, one of which has tiny range. All on the 4 hour off-peak rate. Used zero public charger except for long trips. 

 

The nature of EV is that it's not a direct replacement to liquid fuel cars. Some people, unfortunately, need a direct replacement due to many factors. But according to generalised stats, it's not the majority. 

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

There is 2 options: 

1 - get a big enough battery to cover most days, for example 20 kWh should be enough to cover most days except coldest winter days 

2 - get a different electricity tariff, designed for heat pump https://octopus.energy/smart/cosy-octopus/

Quote

Day rate:   33.98p / kWh

Cosy rate (04:00 - 07:00 & 13:00 - 16:00):    20.39p / kWh

Peak rate (16:00 - 19:00):   54.37p / kWh

Standing charge:   42.01p / day

So only need a small 3 kWh battery to tide over the few peak hours.

 

Thanks for the reasoned reply, your figures are much more what I expected, off peak rate expensive (nearly double the peak rate cost in France) hours already restricted to 3 hours, it was 8 when I was on Economy 7 and we have 8 hours in France.

 

Day rate double what I pay and then there is the penalty of the 3 hours of peak rate at 3 times what I pay let alone the standing charge that seems much higher than what I remember them being when it was billed transparently every 3 months.

 

So you could charge one or two EV's for 3 hours at what 7kw?  paying 20.39p per unit and get shafted for the remaining 21 hours a day.

 

I am struggling to reconcile this with Lol-Lols 7.5p per unit or "almost free or even be paid to take it."

 

I too get penalised for having an off peak tariff, the standing charge is maybe €1.50 more per month and I have to pay an extra 1 ct for all the daytime units all year round for the priveledge of having off peak hot water and storage heating for 3 months of the year, it's still just about worth it for me except the hôtel and my apartment are empty and I only used the heating for one week and hot water for maybe 3 in the last year.

 

12 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Of course the stats say one thing and people's experience say another. I can only speak from gernalised stats to say that majority seems to have the means to recharge using their own off-street parking.

 

Are you registered blind with a self driving car or do you never venture out of middle class areas?

 

Just look at any council estate and you will see the few homes that could have their front gardens converted to parking were done so decades ago, that is the few homes fronting onto a road with a deep enough front garden and nothing more than a narrow band of grass between the footpath and the road who can get permission for a dropped kerb.

 

That knocks out all the terraced houses, all the houses facing pedestrian walkways, any house near a junction or on a curve or bend, all the flats, all the tower blocks, yet many of these are already counted as having off road parking because there will be communal parking areas with often allocated spaces but no way to connect a charging point to the drivers house as it may be 500m away with many other dwellings along the way.

 

The stats may say that the majority of homes have off street parking which anyone using their eyes would realise just can't be true but it doesn't follow they can erect a charge point and cable it back to their dwelling.

Edited 16 June, 20232 yr by J.R.

10 minutes ago, J.R. said:

I am struggling to reconcile this with Lol-Lols 7.5p per unit or "almost free or even be paid to take it."

Follow that link. It's Agile Octopus, a different tariff. The price in that tariff isn't fixed, it varies every 30min depending on wholesale price. Some times it goes negative. There's no fixed pricing, so one may need to pay £1/kWh if worst comes to worst. But typically, with a small home battery, it's about same price as fixed ToU tariff such as Go. Without home storage, it'll depend on how much you use during peak hours. 

 

9 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Just look at any council estate and you will see the few homes that could have their front gardens converted to parking were done so decades ago, that is the few homes fronting onto a road with a deep enough front garden and nothing more than a narrow band of grass between the footpath and the road who can get permission for a dropped kerb.

 

That knocks out all the terraced houses, all the houses facing pedestrian walkways, any house near a junction or on a curve or bend, all the flats, all the tower blocks, yet many of these are already counted as having off road parking because there will be communal parking areas with often allocated spaces but no way to connect a charging point to the drivers house as it may be 100m away.

All the houses you say cannot have driveway are not counted towards the stats. The stats clearly state "properties have off-street parking". Obviously those houses that doesn't currently have off-street parking will not be counted. 

 

The point about flats and communal off-street parking is indeed correct. It is a worrying trend in new builds, where allocated parking spaces are placed away from property, just some painted lines. But I believe this is changing, new builds now require EV charge point provisions put in for allocated space: 

https://pod-point.com/guides/business/ev-charging-legislation-new-build-uk

 

Doesn't solve the problem for existing flats and communal off-street parking. That need a case-by-case look, working with management company and other leaseholders. How much of the stat is house-attached driveway suitable for EV charge point is difficult to say. I can't find any sources. 

 

What's certainly true is that the area matters a lot. I remember dropping off a relative at Bradford Uni, most houses only have street parking. But looking at Welwyn Garden City, most houses do have driveway. 

2 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

All the houses you say cannot have driveway are not counted towards the stats. The stats clearly state "properties have off-street parking"

I have lived in several flats and maisonettes etc none of which had driveways but all had "off street parking" either close by or a couple of minutes walk, off street parking being parking areas often with allocated spaces the highway ends at the concrete strip across the entrance.

 

Nearly all of the thousands of new build homes being thrown up around the village near Gatwick where I sold my house last year after 35 years have these communal parking areas only and they start at over £500K, probably more now, a couple of hundred grand more gets you a postage stamp concrete front garden with true off road parking where even a small vehicle overhangs the pedestrian footpath.

 

It is inconcievable that the majority of UK households have off street parking in the sense of a driveway to their property.

14 hours ago, wyx087 said:

1 & 2. it is pretty hard to push limits in an accurately reporting EV. You cannot compare the guess-o-meter with modern EV's that can accurately predict arrival State of Charge.

3. Again, you are thinking with petrol station mentality. The idea is not to remember to recharge, the idea is to hook up the car whenever the car is parked. Make plugging in EV's a part of parking process. Especially anything parked overnight.

4. I really think you need to drive an EV. Things like lights, radio, dashboard, wipers and cameras use negligible amount of power. Only heating uses noticeable amount, again, a good car takes it into account when accurately predict arrival SoC.

4a. Even if in very slow traffic in winter, only running heating will still use less % of stored energy (eg. vs petrol in the tank) than a petrol engine ticking over. A good EV is extremely efficient.

 

1 & 2/. It doesn't matter how accurate your Miles Left gauge is, if people don't know how exactly many miles they're going to be driving. But even if they do, things will happen to impact that remaining range, be it additional current draw, road diversions or something else that means they run out, including just being stoopid humans.

3/. And it's a lovely idea... but unless the car connects to the charger all by itself, people will forget or be distracted. I carry a USB cable and µUSB adapter because so many people around me forget to charge their life-essential smartphones.

4/. I have had a go with a couple. The Leaf, most notably. I didn't measure consumption, so I'm just going by what the owners at work tell me about their cars.

 

14 hours ago, wyx087 said:

1 & 2. Not all lamp posts are suitable. Agree. But again, it was an example to explain how we can get ahead of EV adoption curve. Doesn't need 100% coverage of all parking spaces.

3. Cables don't belong to charge point, not there when no one is using it, it's just a single port hidden in the lamp post. When connected, the cable is locked to the car and the post locks the cable. It cannot be removed unless it is cut using heavy duty tools, and cutting risks being electrocuted. Just the cables, it's worth probably £20. The plugs are £60+ a piece when brand new. But it is impossible to get the plugs out undamaged.

 

Again, do consider try out a good EV, live with it for a few days, keeping in mind home charging is much simpler with a home charger. It would help you gain a better understanding.

1 & 2/. It's still one of the biggest ownership barriers to those who actually live in built-up areas, where EVs are supposedly in their element.

 

3/. I'm talking about walking along at night and nicking your own personal charge cable while you're sleeping and charging your EV overnight.

Electrocution - Thieves regularly break into 33Kv junction boxes on our railways and nick the cable from those. Occasionally you find a blackened and crispy corpse, but even they are getting more careful.

Locks? Pfft... If I want to non-destructively acquire your cable, I can buy a set of tools online that will defeat most locks with only a modicum of practice, with all the learning on YouTube. Lockpicking Lawyer and McNulty are classic examples, but any Locksporter can show you. I can do all my own motorcycle locks in under 3 seconds.

Going destructive, it'd take under a minute per cable.

 

"Many scrap and recycling businesses are also seeing increased questions regarding electric car chargers – most often, how much they would pay for one. For example, the scrap value for materials in a cable may be worth around £50. Plus, second-hand chargers are being sold for around £200".

https://www.leasingoptions.co.uk/news/latest-news/the-new-crime-sweeping-the-uk-electric-charger-cable-theft/8623

 

So just in this road, that's up to 30 cars, call it an hour to do them all. £1,500 to £ 6,000 for an hour's work and a bit of risk... Even assuming half that value for a quick fence, a casual week of hits like that and I could afford a Tesla of my own!

 

I don't have anywhere to charge an EV off our mains, currently, and the nearest charge points are in some desolate park & ride about a mile up the road.

What is considered a 'good' EV by your measure?

 

14 hours ago, wyx087 said:

How is £800-1000 calculated? Why does bill  (recurring payment) need to increase by this much? It's a one-off cost that the property owner/charge point operator pay. Local council only need to get involved if they wish to fund charge point operator.

Charging at home using domestic rates is as cheap as 7.5p/kWh, 2.5p/mi. So running cost will be lower than refuelling petrol, thus even if property owner increased rent by £36 a month for 3 year ROI (no sane landlord will increase by £800), overall cost of living for tenant shouldn't increase.

 

A small some battery and solar can be installed for less than £9000 if house is suitable, hence £10k inc. interest I mentioned earlier. I had my solar installed on not suitable house (W-E surfaces, complex roof, difficult scaffolding) for £7000. I'm about to spend £1600 for vehicle-2-home, turning my Nissan Leaf into a large home battery. Total less than £9000 for a large home battery and solar on a not suitable house.

Average UK household uses 8 kWh per day. Just need a 3 kWh battery to tide over evening. Said household can switch to off-peak tariff and use the battery to tide over morning use as well, essentially never pay higher peak electric price ever again. Let me re-iterate, safest investment ever.

 

£800-1000 is just what you posted as the cost of a home charge point installation, so was taken as an example value. I'm sure it'd be more for most spaces, but it's a starting figure.

Bill - "a printed or written statement of the money owed for goods or services". Doesn't have to be recurring, though I imagine any sensible landlord would split the cost over several months to avoid ******* off the tennant(s).

Panels looked to start around £9,900-odd for a small 2-bed semi, from a quick Google... with the big caveat of *IF* the house is suitable. Batteries were extra, starting at £3,000 for a piddly little one.

Our house was built in 1865 and we rent, so not any kind of investment for us and comanies coming to quote have already said they can't mount anything on our roof.

 

But beyond just the cost of installation, the addition of charge points, solar panels, home storage batteries and anything else will also add to the value of a property - If you're a homeowner, you're probably happy, but if you're renting then your rent may very well go up.

 

2 hours ago, J.R. said:

I have lived in several flats and maisonettes etc none of which had driveways but all had "off street parking" either close by or a couple of minutes walk, off street parking being parking areas often with allocated spaces the highway ends at the concrete strip across the entrance.Nearly all of the thousands of new build homes being thrown up around the village near Gatwick where I sold my house last year after 35 years have these communal parking areas only and they start at over £500K, probably more now, a couple of hundred grand more gets you a postage stamp concrete front garden with true off road parking where even a small vehicle overhangs the pedestrian footpath.

It is inconcievable that the majority of UK households have off street parking in the sense of a driveway to their property.

 

Gatwick will soon have a Gridserve 36 stall recharge "village" where locals as well as airport visitors will be able to get a charge in great comfort. Lots of these coming in addition to the existing Braintree and Norwich ones. Plymouth will have one by Championship Team the Green Army's ground Home Park.  EV owners will also have the choice to roll out a charge box, like the Allpowers R4000, to charge up in ones flat, take out to the car, give the car some charge from the charge box and hopefully we will get to some standard power cell and then one can just slot in a power cell, say with 50 miles of range, take it out at work to charge at your desk then take it back to your car to power one's journey home, all coming very soon with the pace this tech is surging forward and with electrical energy becoming so cheap.  

https://www.gridserve.com/electric-vehicle-charging/electric-forecourt/london-gatwick-electric-forecourt/

39 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

1 & 2/. It's still one of the biggest ownership barriers to those who actually live in built-up areas, where EVs are supposedly in their element.

I don't agree. EV's as presented today are meant to be replacements for ICE cars.

 

As mentioned, urban environment need public transport.

 

39 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

3/. I'm talking about walking along at night and nicking your own personal charge cable while you're sleeping and charging your EV overnight.

..

Locks? Pfft...

Again, please do check out the EV charging cable and study how they function when being used.

 

39 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

Panels looked to start around £9,900-odd for a small 2-bed semi, from a quick Google... with the big caveat of *IF* the house is suitable. Batteries were extra, starting at £3,000 for a piddly little one.

Our house was built in 1865 and we rent, so not any kind of investment for us and comanies coming to quote have already said they can't mount anything on our roof.

 

But beyond just the cost of installation, the addition of charge points, solar panels, home storage batteries and anything else will also add to the value of a property - If you're a homeowner, you're probably happy, but if you're renting then your rent may very well go up.

https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/2014/08/what-is-the-installation-cost-for-solar-panels

Similar figures here: https://www.checkatrade.com/blog/cost-guides/cost-of-solar-panel-installation/

 

I agree if you are renting, the point is mute. House ownership are also a good investment

Edited 16 June, 20232 yr by wyx087
wrong quote insert

22 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I don't agree. EV's as presented today are meant to be replacements for ICE cars.

As mentioned, urban environment need public transport.

 

I once used public transport to get a full drum kit home from the shops. That alone was enough to get me looking at private vehicles.

But since getting my own wheels, I've saved far more money by being able to buy things like food in bulk, buy cheaper furniture, buy tools and equipment that lets me do things for myself, and even get a job working at places that public transport just can't service.

Plus there's the actual cost of fares, which have been getting ever more ridiculous in the years since I last used a bus or a train.

 

 

22 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Again, please do check out the EV charging cable and study how they function when being used.

Feel free to post any pertinent links......

 

So far all I've seen is advice on using padlocks... most of those even I can open in seconds with a comb pick, blade pick, rake, pair of shims or just a good whack with a hammer. The only piece of advice I wouldn't be able to counter is if you park with your wheels on the cable, but I doubt you want to do that... and none of them would stop me from cutting the cable for scrap value.

 

22 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I agree if you are renting, the point is mute. House ownership are also a good investment

 

Plenty of other things are also good investments.

None of those are affordable for us which is, funnily enough, why we're still renting.

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

and with electrical energy becoming so cheap. 

 

Now I know that you live on a different planet or are on a wind up.

 

I was pretty sure before with your constant references to paying 7.5p per kwh for your electricity just like how much you earn and how much you put into private pensions every year but now I am certain.

22 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Now I know that you live on a different planet or are on a wind up.

I was pretty sure before with your constant references to paying 7.5p per kwh for your electricity just like how much you earn and how much you put into private pensions every year but now I am certain.

 

On this planet, third rock from Sol, just a bit of a lateral thinker than most.

 

Electricity is becoming cheap as it is becoming ever cheaper to make whether at one end with Wind Farms in the North Sea generating over a Gigawatt when running at full chat and there are several of those plus hundreds of other wind turbines in small coastal and on land installations adding several Gigawatts, so much that there is at time as much as 200 MW we just can use so have to twist the turbine blades to not provide torque to the turbines as there is not the battery, or capacity at Dinorwig to store the power for peak time later.

7.5 p per KW is my current nighttime rate, 40 p my day time rate so us as little as possible from the grid then and use my solar generator batteries charged with night time or solar power.  Deal end in September me, current deal was 9.5p per KW hour for the cheap time but who knows what Octopus might offer in a few weeks time.

 

Like I say what people get paid is never what they earn. Sometimes I earn several times more than I get paid, sometimes, not so much. These are strange times for many in the UK for "earnings", I was told no pay rise this year as you already get paid the maximum for the Analyst "Grade", warned my employer that market rate for a customs expert is close to £100k package and therefore could get an offer to go elsewhere leaving them with very little customs expertise but then a super massive French entity is being created by CMA, who also own CEVA, buying my employer to form a super massive logistics firm who will probably be top 3 in the world.  UK tax is in an almighty mess as shown by the fact that I get no pay rise but a good bonus and then the muppets at HMRC think I am suddenly a 45% tax payer who should have no personal allowance, just because of one mult thousands bonus payment in a month, which is a very common UK payroll action. Taken weeks to sort out, get my tax free allowance back up to the circa £20k, place has gone to pieces since I left.

 

People should not knock those who put thousands a month in to pension funds as it is used by those fund to invest in all sorts of projects including infrastructure.  At least there are a few of us buying crapping UK Gilts, and probably French Bonds too.  The UK is in a pretty bad place financially ie debt and UK 2 year Gilts at nearly 5% and France's debt at around 110% of GDP is concerning to international markets that both these countries are financial near the bottom of western league tables. 

 

I am a big Octopus energy fan and Martin Lewis mentions them a lot too but I also think Électricité de France SA have offered some stocking deals.  My sister took out a three year fixed deal and it is so nice of French people to subsidise thousands of British customs but selling electricity probably below cost.  Big fan of tax planning to as it a HMRC encouraged tax avoidance measure  and now that fine Con party is allowing UK tax payers to put more than £40k a year in to tax free pension schemes, God bless them, they really look after those they want to Hell to those did not anticipate high inflation like I did a couple of years ago.  We are going to see a replay of the early nineteen nineties nightmare under the Cons then as now, dreading renewing my mortgage next year

 

Nobody is knocking people who pay into pension funds, I'm glad to see that you did not miss the opportunity to tell us yet again that you earn over £100K per year.

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

7.5 p per KW is my current nighttime rate, 40 p my day time rate so us as little as possible from the grid then and use my solar generator batteries charged with night time or solar power.  Deal end in September me, current deal was 9.5p per KW hour for the cheap time but who knows what Octopus might offer in a few weeks time.

 

The absolute cheapest rate available to us was 46p daytime and 18p night, plus 45p standing charge.

Word is that's going to double at the next round of revisions.

 

21 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

 

The absolute cheapest rate available to us was 46p daytime and 18p night, plus 45p standing charge.

Word is that's going to double at the next round of revisions.

 

 

If it does I will add to my half a kilowatt of panels that I have, double, triple quadruple plus get some more batteries so less grid electricity will be sold. I can see a point arriving when some users give up on grid power and just make their own via solar, small wind turbines and maybe gas powered generators. 

 

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

Nobody is knocking people who pay into pension funds, I'm glad to see that you did not miss the opportunity to tell us yet again that you earn over £100K per year.

 

But I dont. It is quite common for companies,particularly London ones, especially linked to finance but many others too, get a week, a month or even a year or two worth of salary as soon as the new tax year begins.  I got about an extra months pay and that was HMRC thought was a new salary, with my car allowance and despite siphoning off a grand to pension as tax avoidance still had me north of £130k pa pro data but this was a complete error and I wonder just how many thousands they also messed up which meant many had less money to spend which will mean much less money going in to the economy but then maybe a bit less UK government borrowing.

 

BREXIT has been good for some, but potentially really bad for the 800K UK  automotive jobs.  France is building several battery factories and may even get a TESLA factory though my guess who be Spain.  EU lucky to get the chance to  buy the Dacia Spring which is proving to be a great seller behind the Model Y.

 

Edited 16 June, 20232 yr by lol-lol

Those behind the proposed Dundee Battery factory have their begging bowl out.

The way the SNP give to hopeless cases & failed ventures is ridiculous and i hope this gets no public money.

 

Simply because in the wrong place not near the port and a rail line.   Dundee is OK, just not where they want it, put it at the Docks where they want the Dundee Eden Project built.

 

Their planned location of the Ex Michelin Factory where SWARCO / Charge Place Scotland are based & now right in the middle of houses and shops & other business and the wrong place for more HGV movements.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-65915038

 

http://news.stv.tv/north/dundee-battery-gigafactory-plans-uncertain-as-company-behind-plant-seeks-urgent-cash

 

http://scottishconstructionnow.com/articles/in-pictures-ps475m-dundee-innovation-hub-tops-out

 

 

 

From 3 years ago.

 

 

Edited 16 June, 20232 yr by toot

30 minutes ago, toot said:

Those behind the proposed Dundee Battery factory have their begging bowl out.

The way the SNP give to hopeless cases & failed ventures is ridiculous and i hope this gets no public money.

 

Simply because in the wrong place not near the port and a rail line.   Dundee is OK, just not where they want it, put it at the Docks where the Want the Dundee Eden Project built.

 

Their planned location of the Ex Michelin Factory where SWARCO / Charge Place Scotland are based & now right in the middle of houses and shops & other business and the wrong place for more HGV movements.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-65915038

 

http://news.stv.tv/north/dundee-battery-gigafactory-plans-uncertain-as-company-behind-plant-seeks-urgent-cash

 

http://scottishconstructionnow.com/articles/in-pictures-ps475m-dundee-innovation-hub-tops-out

 

 

 

From 3 years ago.

 

 

 

I had heard that Somerset was going to win it but with half a billion of subsidies.