Hey guys, 

This will be a bit of a long post - so apologies in advance. 

I bought my second hand 2012 Skoda Fabia II 12.TDi combi, and it was fine. I know it had been in an accident before I bought it - but it drove straight and was repaired quite well. The past winter I changed the clutch and timing belt myself, gave it a good service, and although it was driving mostly straight decided to give it a wheel alignment anyways since most of the front was disassembled. It drove straight as well. 

Now I moved abroad with the car and still don't have a garage to work on it - it needed the EGR valve replaced and took it to a shop, after which I noticed a slight pull to one side - assuming because they had to disconnect the subframe and steering linkages etc? No idea. Anyways, took it in to a shop for a 3d wheel alignment and whilst the car drove straight, the steering wheel was no off centre, pointing a bit to the left. After a couple of weeks I took it back in to the same shop and said they could not see any issues with the car, tried to realign but the issue persisted.  The mechanic told me that everything down there looks good, nothing wrong mechanically so he could not understand why it's happening.  He said if it persisted I should rotate the  wheels around.  Whilst annoying, the car drove straight so I could live with it. 

Last week I took my car in to a mechanic for a service, and asked him if he could look into the steering wheel being off centre, and to rotate the wheels around - and for sure he tried to "realign" the wheels by feel, or by sight - as when I got the car back it now started pulling to the right if I let go of the steering wheel - and the steering wheel wasn't even centred.  Anyways he did charge quite a bit even for the normal stuff - so didn't bother going back in to his shop. 

Today I just came back from another shop (also a 3d wheel alignment) - and they specialise specifically in wheel alignment - and lo and behold, got the car back with the same issue - the steering wheel is off centre to the left.  I did see them locking the steering wheel in place as well - because I know it could be that they were not locking it.  I am attaching the results from today - before and after. 

I am at a loss - It cannot be that the last 3 shops all do bad wheel alignments (since the first one was fine).  The car is parked and with the steering wheel centred, the wheels are visible turned slightly more into one direction - so no idea why 2 of those shops (the second and the fourth) tell me that it looks ok. The car does drive straight. Can it be that the steering wheel needs to be removed and re-centred? Or should I just drive from Czechia all the way back down to Malta to go to my usual guy who did it right in the first place? hah! 

Any thoughts? 

Cheers! 

 

1 hour ago, DanielFenech said:

I am at a loss - It cannot be that the last 3 shops all do bad wheel alignments (since the first one was fine). 

 

It does not surprise me, most of them have no conception of the first principles of vehicle steering and suspension geometry.

 

Without a translation of the terms I cant be sure but am fairly confident that your car is crabbing after the subframe was refitted in a different position, I had the same problem myself, I was aware of the huge clearances around the fixing bolts and used spray paint to mark the position but it was not enough, the car pulled to one side and would only go in a straight line with a few degrees of steering input.

 

My saving grace was not taking it to an alignment centre who would have mucked around as yours have done without tackling the root cause, the misaligment of the front subframe and also possibly the rear (mine is) relative to the vehicle centre line.

 

I made a fixture to hold a laser spirit level onto the wheel rims at centre height, basically short bungees and a shim to compensate for the toe in, the laser was aimed at a paper target at the door B posts with the steering centred, the rear axle was slightly misaligned, - different dimension from the laser spot to the door on each side of the vehicle, this remains so as I could not get enough purchase on the rear securing bolts while under the car on my back.

 

The front subframe was way out as I thought, in fact there was not enough clearance on the fixings to centre it (my car had also been accident damaged) without pulling it with a ratchet strap from the rear subframe.

 

Afterwards the steering was straight and the car tracks dead straight without any pull, the rear axle is still very very slightly misaligned but well within the manufacturers tolerances.

 

I got 55000 miles from the last set of tyres that were already part worn when I bought the vehicle and they all wore evenly with rotation when required and optimising the pressures according to the wear across the tread.

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

 

It does not surprise me, most of them have no conception of the first principles of vehicle steering and suspension geometry.

 

Without a translation of the terms I cant be sure but am fairly confident that your car is crabbing after the subframe was refitted in a different position, I had the same problem myself, I was aware of the huge clearances around the fixing bolts and used spray paint to mark the position but it was not enough, the car pulled to one side and would only go in a straight line with a few degrees of steering input.

 

My saving grace was not taking it to an alignment centre who would have mucked around as yours have done without tackling the root cause, the misaligment of the front subframe and also possibly the rear (mine is) relative to the vehicle centre line.

 

I made a fixture to hold a laser spirit level onto the wheel rims at centre height, basically short bungees and a shim to compensate for the toe in, the laser was aimed at a paper target at the door B posts with the steering centred, the rear axle was slightly misaligned, - different dimension from the laser spot to the door on each side of the vehicle, this remains so as I could not get enough purchase on the rear securing bolts while under the car on my back.

 

The front subframe was way out as I thought, in fact there was not enough clearance on the fixings to centre it (my car had also been accident damaged) without pulling it with a ratchet strap from the rear subframe.

 

Afterwards the steering was straight and the car tracks dead straight without any pull, the rear axle is still very very slightly misaligned but well within the manufacturers tolerances.

 

I got 55000 miles from the last set of tyres that were already part worn when I bought the vehicle and they all wore evenly with rotation when required and optimising the pressures according to the wear across the tread.

Thank you so much, this is not something I was thinking of! But it definitely makes sense since all this started after getting it back from the shop following an EGR valve replacement - which as far as I know requires the subframe to come off. 

Is it a big job to re align the subframe? Unfortunatley here I do not have a garage, so I need to rely on mechanics - something I have never done in my entire life, being the son of a truck mechanic hah! And I feel so anxious that the first time I really needed a mechanic it went south with this situation. 

If the tracking is out you need to adjust each side to keep the wheel central. If you only adjust one side the tracking comes in but the wheel is off-true. I once had that so I knocked the wheel off and moved it around a couple of splines, but that was years ago when there were no airbags or such. It was just a two-minute job on my old Ford Prefect.

This is not a question of tracking and centralising the steering, its that the front and rear axles are not aligned with each other and the centre line of the vehicle, it is crabbing.

 

All these so called experts have done is play with the tracking and it speaks volumes for their (in)competence that they cannot even do that and keep the steering wheel central which is imperative with electric power steering and a steering angle sensor.

 

@DanielFenech Its not a big job, I did it myself on my driveway during Covid, unless you find a mechanic with a clue about the first principles of steering and suspension you will not have a good outcome, I suggest that you do what I did and take measurements from the wheel rims with the steering in the straight ahead position to the side of the vehicle, you could do it with string but you would need to make a carrier that compensates for the toe in and also spaces the string points out from the vehicle or the string would foul on the wheelarches.

 

Using a laser level makes it easy to do on your own and the thickness of the level spaces the beam away from the bodywork, you dont strictly need to shim to make the wheeltrack parallel to get comparitive readings but its much better to.

 

Armed with your results from that, the measurements which will for example be Front axle straight, wheels parallel projected back to B post (or even rear wheel centres) 60mm left side, 40mm right side you can tell the mechanic to move the subframe sideways or rotate it (dependant on the readings) to get to an even 50mm on each side.

 

Hard to put into words, easy to do once you understand the principle, trying to explain to a stranger on the internet without being able to show them physically and for them to do the same to a mechanic is a tall order.

 

41 minutes ago, Jocko said:

If the tracking is out you need to adjust each side to keep the wheel central. If you only adjust one side the tracking comes in but the wheel is off-true. I once had that so I knocked the wheel off and moved it around a couple of splines, but that was years ago when there were no airbags or such. It was just a two-minute job on my old Ford Prefect.

Don't really wish to just move the steering wheel a few splines. Thought about it, did it on my '98 Polo way back when, but then again it did not even have power steering, let alone elctric steering with a sensor that might throw everything off.  And if something is fundamentally wrong with the set up of the car, I don't want to "hide" the issue but get down to it and solve it as best as I could.  I know I asked if maybe the steering wheel needs recentering but on deeper thoughts I think that is a very less likely requirement - I was thinking that maybe the steering wheel was replaced and not put back on properly. 

Easy way to double check the steering wheel radial position:

 

From the current central position turn it to full left and right hand lock and count the turns and partial turns for left and right, they should be the same.

 

An easier visual confirmation is to look at where one of the spokes is pointing to at left and right hand lock, if you are really lucky it may be straight up or down or a few degrees away, it should be the same but symmetrically opposite on the other lock.

 

I'm pretty sure you will find that your steering wheel is still correctly aligned with the column and steering rack and hence the steering position sensor is correct, if so do not move the wheel (which you have already asserted) the front wheels might be all over the place after the garages fiddling but dont try to correct that before repositioning the subframe correctly, at that stage everything should fall into place although you may have to undo the fiddling done by the garages.

I am certainly not advocating moving the steering wheel. It appears the correction to the tracking has all been carried out on one side and the other garages have just checked the alignment. The tracking adjustment has to be balanced on either side to correct the steering wheel issue.

The problem is not the tracking (front axle toe measurement) it is that the front subframe is in the incorrect position, the centre line of the theoretical front axle is no longer normal to the centre line of the vehicle and parallel to the rear axle theoretical centre line after the EGR replacement.

 

It will not have needed any tracking correction in the first place, the axle repositioning will not have affected the relation of the wheels to each other, their toe angle, all the muppets have done is to do what you say in a clumsy attempt to get the steering wheel central when the vehicle is travelling in a straight line ignoring the fact that the driver has to impart a turning moment to the steering wheel to maintain the trajectory and that when the vehicle is parked with the steering wheel central the front wheels are visibly pointing to one side.

The front subframe should only affect the front wheel camber and castor angles. If they are correct the front subframe position should be correct.

Ok so I've tried to check up on both the axel centreness/alignment and the steering wheel's position itself with respect to the spline it mounts to. 

I tried to straighten the wheels as best as I could before I took the measurements - I found that from the centre of the rear wheels to the centre of the front wheels, the right hand side (passenger side where I am at, in the Czech Republic, would be Driver's side in the UK/Malta) is a bit shorter - around 8mm. The wheels themselves with respect to the wheel arch are also a little bit misaligned - the right hand side's wheel is more rearwards - the gap to the front of the wheel arch is bigger, and the gap to the rear of the wheel arch is smaller when compared to the opposite (left) side.  If the left side distance between the wheel arch and the tire is 5cm, it is 6cm on the right side. And the distance between the rear of the wheel arch to the tire also results in 1cm difference. I also used fixed points on wheel arch to measure to the tire - the bolts that hold the arch lining. The distance from the strut to the outer sidewall of the tire is approximately the same on both sides - so can it be that the sub frame is not straight? I.E. can it be that they mounted the sub frame with the left side more forward, hence the car has a natural tendency to turn right and which is why after wheel alignment the steering wheel is to the left? 

Another discovery was that the steering wheel, when rotated to the lock to the left, the screen fits between the bottom spokes - it's edge just touching the outer spoke.  When rotated to opposite (right) lock, the inner spoke covers most of the screen. Hence the wheel turns a bit less to the right than it does to the left. I know perspective is not 100% the same, but you can compare the logo to the screen, and even visually in real time is evident that they do not match.  Could it be that when they replaced the EGR valve, they had to undo the steering column and when they put it back together they had turned it a couple of splines? 

Can it be a combination of both assumptions I am doing above, or either/or? My father - a truck mechanic, told me he finds it hard to believe that they subframe was put in place incorrectly because when we replaced the clutch/timing belt we did losen it a bit, and when we tightened it back up we did not pay attention to aligning it well, it just "fit in place" and we had no issues.  He said if there would be any misalignment it would be mere millimeters but he's also not sure as he said we could have gotten lucky as well. 

PS I know the measurements I have taken are not accurate, but I believe they do depict a good picture of what is going on, even if the values are not 100% correct - you can also see the differences both in wheel position and steering wheel rotation visually.

Cheers  

Edited 29 September, 20241 yr by DanielFenech

4 hours ago, DanielFenech said:

Could it be that when they replaced the EGR valve, they had to undo the steering column and when they put it back together they had turned it a couple of splines? 

 

They did not have to, they could have left it hanging like I did but they may have done, I think they left it in place and the subsequent alignment "specialists" have adjusted both track rod ends equally, not changing the toe in but trying to get the wheel central when driving.

 

4 hours ago, DanielFenech said:

My father - a truck mechanic, told me he finds it hard to believe that they subframe was put in place incorrectly because when we replaced the clutch/timing belt we did losen it a bit, and when we tightened it back up we did not pay attention to aligning it well, it just "fit in place" and we had no issues.  He said if there would be any misalignment it would be mere millimeters but he's also not sure as he said we could have gotten lucky as well. 

 

He was lucky and is incorrect, there is a massive amount of clearance by design so that the subframes can be set up correctly in the factory and after accident repairs allowing for the body tolerances, I thought that I had got mine back in the same position, it was not far out but the result was the same as you have, an undriveable vehicle that would only go in a straight line with applying counter steering force and if hands free would dive off the road very quickly.

 

What I did not know then is that they make a special tool to ensure the subframe is replaced in the exact same position, most people incorrectly describe it as a centralising tool.

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

 

They did not have to, they could have left it hanging like I did but they may have done, I think they left it in place and the subsequent alignment "specialists" have adjusted both track rod ends equally, not changing the toe in but trying to get the wheel central when driving.

 

 

He was lucky and is incorrect, there is a massive amount of clearance by design so that the subframes can be set up correctly in the factory and after accident repairs allowing for the body tolerances, I thought that I had got mine back in the same position, it was not far out but the result was the same as you have, an undriveable vehicle that would only go in a straight line with applying counter steering force and if hands free would dive off the road very quickly.

 

What I did not know then is that they make a special tool to ensure the subframe is replaced in the exact same position, most people incorrectly describe it as a centralising tool.

Ok, so my best bet is to find someone to align the axle properly, since I don't have access to a garage over here, or tools for that matter.  Just as a remark - if I let go of the steering wheel, the car keeps driving straight, very little pull to the right (not sure if it is because of the road surface or not to be honest).  

When we lowered the subframe we just "loosened" it a bit, then used the markings of the old bolts/washers as far as I remember - maybe that is why we got it right at one go? 

Regarding the steering wheel - do you think it's just the result of the alignment guys or it can be off and needs adjustment itself as well?

On 27/09/2024 at 17:55, DanielFenech said:

when I got the car back it now started pulling to the right if I let go of the steering wheel - and the steering wheel wasn't even centred.

 

So does it pull to one side or not?

 

People cannot answer your questions when they have been given contradictory information.

8 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

So does it pull to one side or not?

 

People cannot answer your questions when they have been given contradictory information.

I think you misunderstood me - I clearly said that the car used to pull to one side after I had the EGR valve replaced, then took it for wheel alignment and it drove straight but the steering wheel was off centre (if I release it car still drives straight but it has to be off centre for the car to drive straight), I took it in again and they couldn't fix it, said everything looked fine. Took the car for a service and the guy said he will look into it, after which the car started pulling to one side again. Now just took it to another shop for proper alignment and car drives straight but again steering is offset.  I specified in the last paragraph of the post "the car drives straight", no idea how you see that as being contradictory, perhaps you miscomprehended? 

Apologies for any confusion - I tried to pass on as much detail as possible about the situation.