[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

1 hour ago, chimaera said:

I've pointed out several times on this thread that this issue has been recognised by Skoda/VAG including the details of the technical bulletin they have issued. Skoda KNOW this is a problem and have issued instructions to their dealers on what to do to resolve it.

 

Knowing this, it baffles me how none of you have taken Skoda to task on this, either via trading standards or legal proceedings.

Hi.  My own efforts are detailed in the thread, but in summary: SUK said (and I quote) "We are not aware of this problem, and we have no record of it happening". Citizens Advice said to use the trade association (Motorcodes). They said the only option was to sue the dealer who originally sold the car, but they wouldn't hold out much hope.  I looked at starting legal proceedings, but that was an initial £200 fee, with more if you lost the case, and having just shelled out £3K+, I didn't have the heart to do that.  I'd still say this is at a level now that's beyond individuals (especially with Skoda's "see you in court" attitude) and I believe a consumer group or class action is entirely appropriate, and for me, that's Motorcodes.

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

SURELY we are now at a point where Trading Standards, Motorcodes or some formal legal challenge is mounted to this known, original, and cynically-denied problem?  Blameless owners have shelled out millions to pay for a fault that was built into their cars.  I tried and failed, but surely, the more pressure they get, the sooner we can end this blatant scam.  A legal challenge might be difficult, but I'd advise anyone who's had this problem, or feels strongly about it, to write to Motorcodes, quoting this thread.  What possible excuse can they have NOT to act? We should ask that question.

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

Richard:  Two things in your post ring true:  "it's just us minions discussing this..." and  "until they are finally called out..." 

 

In my view, the technical liability of VAG is beyond doubt, and it's very obvious that it's  not in their interests to accept liability.  If it was a couple of cases, it would be different, but this must be hundreds of customers significantly out-of-pocket for the same provable OE fault that is actively, if not dishonestly, denied ("Not aware of this problem"  "no component fault" etc)

 

I think we are well past the point of debating IF or HOW, and with the multiple, repeated, provable failures, it's time the industry bodies, trading standards or consumer groups stepped in.  Its very clear that Joe Public Vs the world's biggest motor manufacturer is simply a no-contest.  We need support.

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

Donbrig:  At the risk of repeating myself, it's worth going over the "normal wear and tear" point again.  As a Chatered Engineer with thousands of metallurgical failure analyses under my belt (including my own Skoda, as above) I feel well-qualified to comment, but actually, this is a very simple situation.  I would be very sure that your failure, and all the others, would, like mine, show "beach mark" striations on the spring fracture faces, and any first year metallurgy student will tell you that this is the definitive symptom of a fatigue failure.  At this point, it's game over, because we have a major transmission part that fails (with no possible input or contribution from the driver and with disastrous consequential effects) at an unrealistically low 40K miles or so.  In or out of warranty, that's clearly unfit for purpose. 

 

If you wanted to go further and say why it failed by fatigue, then the operating stress/fatigue limit, as in my posts above, has to be a prime contender.  Another possible contribution is the "fretting" (micro- welding) I saw between the diaphragm spring and its retainer, which can initiate fatigue cracks.  What didnt cause it, at least in my case, is faulty heat-treatment of the spring, which looked absolutely fine. 

 

There's no doubt in my mind that the most basic metallurgical analysis would prove to a court's satisfaction that this was an original, inherent fault that is totally outside any influence of the customer.  For reasons I've already explained, that person isn't me, but with the multiple failures of Skoda, VW, Audi, and probably others, my feeling is that this surely is within the remit of Motorcodes as an industry regulator and consumer champion.  Why should us minions have to take the fight as individuals to a global conglomerate with massive power and finances behind it?  Why do we have to scramble for tenuous safety links?  Why are they allowed to blithely ignore obvious OE failures, hiding behind passive threats like "so sue us"?  This is not only unfair, but is also willingly deceitful and completely immoral.  We need US-style consumer-protection laws!

 

You got a much better response from Motorcodes than I did, but I wish someone would ask them to read this thread in detail and explain their inaction.  I think it would also be good if Audi, VW and other owners who have found this thread could join forces somehow.  How many cars, at what cost, have failed, and how many are yet to fail?  All in all, a disgraceful situation

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

No, I'm sure they can't.  I was just answering your question about denial.  It's inconceivable, though, that SUK don't have chapter and verse on this years-long problem, and I was annoyed the best they could do was "it's news to us"

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

31 minutes ago, Ryeman said:

^^^^^^VW “in denial”?

I asked formally: "This cannot possibly be a one-off,  do you have in your warranty records multiple failures of this type?"  Answer: "We are not aware of it"

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

Interesting point.  As I've said many times, this is a fatigue failure, and as such, a lower stress could help, but only if the part has been incorrectly designed.  Look up "S/N curve, fatigue" and you'll see a graph with a decreasing straight line that, at a certain point, levels to horizontal.  This means if the stress (S) is below this point, the number of cycles to failure (N) will be "infinite" (meaning generally more than 10^7 cycles.)  Above this stress, the cycles-to-failure rapidly decrease, so for these clutches to fail, they are operating on the slope of the S/N curve, ie. a poor design.  Reducing the pedal travel (hence S) would help, but as the clutch wears, it would likely become crunchy, and of course, the main point is you shouldn't have to do that. It's just a bad design, with Skoda in denial and sometimes offering customers "help" with a built-in, day one problem that the customer cannot influence at all.

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

Quite honestly, I think you're wasting your time.  As I said many times above, this is an immoral, possibly illegal, way of handling a proven, known and original manufacturing defect, but SUK are absolutely and totally rigid in their attempts to minimise claims.  I guess they have to do this, because any admission of liability would unleash massive open-ended costs for the whole VW group.  In my view, the only way would be individual or group legal action on what should be a very easy-to-prove case.  In retrospect, I think a decent welder might have salvaged my box, but I think your chance of any payment at all is near-zero. 

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

Quite.  But as with the emission debacle, it shouldn't be up to VAG to define the rules to suit themselves.  By any definition, they supplied an unfit for purpose product, and as I said above it needs someone to pick the legal fight.  If not, things will continue as-is indefinitely.

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

Good luck with Motorcodes.  I tried that route and they were no help at all.  "Sue the dealer, but it probably won't work" in summary.

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

Good luck with this, I'd be interested in how you get on.  If you trawl through my many posts above, you'll see that my situation is complicated by the dealer's inability/unwillingness to help, and the involvement of a third party, but the fact remains that an original, known, widespread and proven manufacturing fault cost me thousands and cost VAG a  loyal customer.  As I've said several times, if this practice isn't in breach of trading regulations, it's certainly morally dubious.

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

I wonder how you'd have fared if the TPI had been issued at the time. I still reckon you could get some of your money back given that you've documented your case very well, and they have now acknowledged it as an issue. If I were you I'd be talking to my solicitor about it.

 

Incidentally I suspect my own car may have developed this issue too. At times over the summer I'd noticed a periodic grating/hissing noise from the engine bay but it came and went and I didn't pay it much heed. I noticed it again yesterda and it struck me that it may well be this issue. I'm tempted to call to a mechanic I know and see if I can get my fibre-optic camera into the bell housing for a look before I go talk to my local Skoda dealer. I'm due a service in March anyway so I'm debating whether I can wait until then to have it looked at or not.

Thanks for this, I'd love to talk to a solicitor about it, because as I've said many times, SUK's stance is immoral at best, and may be contrary to consumer law, whoever did the repair.  The problem is, an initial 30min consultation is, I believe £150-200 (£400/hr!!) and I guess the best result would then be that I had a case, which would then incur more costs that I'd only recover if I won.  I'm already nearly £4K down, so I really can't afford to risk that, and I suppose that's what SUK banks on. 

 

I could do with a friendly  solicitor who'd do it on a  no win/no fee basis simply because they believed in the rights of the little man over dubious business practices.  (Well, I can dream!) 

 

Sorry to hear your own car my be about to eat itself, hopefully, if it does, this thread will be of some use to you, and to others as well. 

 

As a footnote, I'm now in another manufacturer's car, which is great, but actually nowhere near the quality and functionality of the Superb, which I miss a lot.  I was, and would have been, a loyal customer, but all I feel now is resentment.  Surely that's not "Simply Clever"

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

Good luck with the SUK negotiation, I did everything I could, and they wouldn't even acknowledge the issue, let alone even contribute. I'd be interested to know which clutch the independent fitted. Original Sachs, uprated Sachs or LUK

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

I'll let you in on a secret here - I'm an engineer too. I'm well aware of what fatigue is, and what might cause it. My suspicion based on what's been discussed here and the pictures I've seen is that the pressure plate spring wasn't properly heat treated and remained overly brittle.

 

I lecture in chemical engineering in a university here and one of the classes I teach is on troubleshooting. One of the big things that is emphasised in this class is the danger of holding onto one hypothesis for a fault source no matter what the evidence is. It's a trap I've fallen into myself on more than one occasion.

 

In this case, Occam's Razor points to this being a quality issue rather than a design issue for the simple reason that a design issue would cause far more widespread failures than have been seen up to now.

 

As it happens, Skoda are quite aware of this problem and have issued a Technical Production Information bulletin on it. I had forgotten about it until I was digging through the service documents I have for something else. The bulletin is number 2039427/5 and was issued on 26/02/2016. They cite a quality deviation of the diaphragm spring as the cause.

 

You can download it from https://erwin.skoda-auto.cz/erwin/showHome.do - an hour's access is about £7/€10 IIRC. (I paid for a day's access when I bought my car and was able to download all the servicing manuals for my car in that time - I digress.) Please don't ask me to forward on the pdf I have: it includes my vehicle particulars.

 

The repair that is authorised depends on the extent of the damage, but covers a new clutch kit at least, and a clutch housing or gearbox if the damage is severe enough. It seems that the work must be done by Skoda to qualify, but I'd wonder if work done outside their network could be at least partly reimbursed with the aid of a solicitor.

 

It's not clear from the bulletin whether there's a specific range of VINs affected. The models listed in the bulletin are: Yeti, Octavia II, Superb II in both FWD and 4x4 versions. If their system is clever enough, it may only expose this bulletin to affected cars; I can't say for sure. If it did, I should be worried too. I'll ask about it at my next service.

 

Looking at the gearbox housing I think it should be possible to feed in a fibre-optic camera through the opening for the starter motor: I reckon this could be a useful way to check the condition of the PP. 

 

A final comment from reading the service manual: DMF and clutch are matched from a given manufacturer i.e. LUK only works with LUK, Sachs with Sachs. That being said, I did see references in the Sachs catalogue to LUK compatible clutch kits; LUK may do similar for Sachs DMFs.

 

Hopefully this information will help some of you.

 

Thanks very much for taking the time for such a comprehensive and well-thought-out reply.  I've consistently tried to convey as much information as possible in a way that will help other owners without either coming across as a knowall or, worse, patronising.

 

I'd love to debate the points with you in detail, but I guess a forum isn't the place to do that; it so often comes across as point-scoring, and I respect what you've said too much for that.

 

You're right, of course, that incorrect heat-treatment would be a prime potential cause, but I'm fortunate to be able to check that. I was able to take a microsection at the point of origin, and actually, it was beautifully heat-treated; fully Martensitic, with no appreciable decarburisation, and a hardness that was completely appropriate for a spring like this.  I think if it had been poorly-hardened, a fatigue failure would have been easier, and at higher hardnesses, a brittle failure would have been more likely.

 

My thinking, therefore, was that i) The spring was good, but liable to fail because of the environment it lived in,  and ii)  With the volume of cars the VW group produce, a batch failure that ranged over many years and several models was absolutely inconceivable.  Also, assuming the Feb 2016 release date of the bulletin is accurate, that's more than six years after my own car was built. Were they really producing hundreds of thousands of defective clutches during that time? If you wanted to describe a fault to a non-technical public, then I guess the phrase "Quality Deviation" would cover either case.

 

I've been careful to use phrases like "in my view" or "I think" because that's all it is, my own work and my own view of how a failure like this could happen (albeit based on several decades of failure analysis) and all my conclusions have been based on observations and measurements on an actual failed part rather than hypotheses.

 

I'm happy to take some of your points on board, and please don't think I'm trying to get one up on you, like many tecchies, I find failure analysis fascinating, (and I know exactly what you mean about being lured into the wrong conclusion.)  

 

I suppose the only people who know for sure, though, aren't likely to share that information with us, and the bottom line is that for many customers, it's been a huge expense through no fault of their own.

 

Thanks again for taking the time to comment.

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

I'd say Sachs are still fine. My feeling is this problem was a bad batch of clutches. If it were a design issue, I think we'd be seeing a lot more cars having this problem, given the number of them on the road with this drivetrain.

The clutch, flywheel and most of the gearbox are shared between FWD and 4x4. The only difference is the bevel drive and the output shaft leaving the back of the gearbox to send drive to the Haldex unit on the rear axle.

As regards LUK vs Sachs, it appears you can use either brand clutch and flywheel together based on people having swapped the OE Sachs clutch for LUK without changing the DMF too.

I can't agree.  Start from the premise that this is 100% a fatigue failure; that is, repeated loading at a level below its ultimate strength produces an accumulation of defects in the steel's structure that initiate slow-growing, stop/start cracks that eventually grow to the point of ultimate failure through overload. In any manufactured part, there are literally hundreds of variables within manufacturing tolerances that can influence this (dimensions, surface finish, stacked tolerances, vehicle variables, alignment, variation in other system parts, materials etc.) and what I'm saying is that the design of this clutch is susceptible to these entirely normal variations.  That is, the fragile design makes the clutch more prone to failure, it doesn't necessarily mean every one will fail.  Put it this way; if yours failed, and a dealer offered you a like-for-like clutch saying don't worry it was a "bad batch" would you accept?  I sure wouldn't.   Haven't there also been failures across a very wide range of build years, from early Golfs to Yetis?  I think "bad batch" is often used as an easy get-out clause by tradesmen who don't understand what's really going on.

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

FWIW, I looked at Sachs' site, and put in the details for my vehicle.  This is the clutch they offer... a totally different design.  I wonder why?

 

https://www.sachsperformance.com/Performance-Clutch-Kit-XTend-3000970036-S

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

The steel's OK, I think. This is about stresses imposed and defect creation. Most fatigue failures have a fair spread of results because so many tiny variables affect it. The aim of the designer is to maintain the stress at a level below the fatigue curve.

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

Stubie: Relative movement between spring ring and clutch produces surface defects through "fretting" (micro-welding under pressure and friction) then, these propagate through fatigue cracking as the clutch is operated. The cracks grow until the ring cracks all the way through, then it dislocates from its housing. It looks like the fatigue life of this clutch is only about 40k miles. There has to be some variation, or they'd all fail, but in my opinion, there is next to no chance of this being a bad batch, and I think this is a pure design issue. I'd be interested to know if today's Sachs clutches show any changes.

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

Wow, that puts another perspective on it, doesn't it?  Good spot.  There must be many thousands of these failing worldwide.  I wish there was somebody with the appropriate resources and motivation to start a class action, as previously suggested.  Many people are relived at having to contribute "only" £1200 or so, but when they are neither at fault, nor able to control this failure, why should they contribute at all?  The clutch may fail out-of-warranty, but it could easily be demonstrated that the fault was designed into the car.  With car lifetimes easily in excess of 100K miles, I'd argue that a large, expensive failure of  key component at 40K that does so much consequential damage demonstrates this clutch is not of merchantable quality.

 

 

Hi all
Been keeping upto date with this thread as my car as just gone over 40,000miles and it's in back of my head if/when will it fail with me.
Just been through the whole thread from start again and good to see the pictures as I'd forgotten they were there
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wgcsQ1-5oLQ
Found this on YouTube, only clip I could really come across, it's 2011 Vw and the same things happened. He goes on abit but shows the gearbox and broken ring on the pressure plate

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

It's VW's company and they are ultimately responsible, in the same way they are for the emissions cheat.

VW components are ultimately VW's responsibility.

When the engine/transmission assembly arrives from the cheap labour factory it isn't stripped down for a quality inspection, it's taken on trust

Apparently they (Skoda) are naive.

Please don't think I'm being obtuse, but it's an important point.  When we talk about responsibility, we have to differentiate between responsibility to the consumer, and root cause.  I don't know if this is Sachs' design or if they're working to a Skoda or VW group design.  If it's a Sachs design, then of course, the root cause lies with them, but I'm pretty sure no consumer would pursue a second or third tier supplier, or the parent company of the car manufacturer.  When I was being brushed-off by Skoda UK (who wouldn't discuss the problem, or even acknowledge it  existed) I wrote to Skoda in the Czech Republic.  Their response was "everything we do is handled through SUK, talk to them". I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure our dealings as customers can only be with the people we have our contract with.... the dealers.

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

Skoda design and sell the car, and are responsible for its quality.  They may, of course, have a secondary claim against Sachs, but that's entirely their business,  The customer can only have recourse against the manufacturer, via the dealer.

 

It's not a skoda fault because it came in a box from a VW factory.
Sachs is German I'm pretty sure.

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

Just one small correction, there's no possibility at all it's the loose piece that does the damage.  The clutch/gearbox clearance is tight, and the protruding spring (about 6x harder than the gearbox) machines its way through the box like a lathe tool, hence the noise.

 

 

My oh my, I've been a very lucky boy, thanks mainly due to this thread.

 

As it happens I've experienced the exact same failure as the OP, albeit a little later in the cars life than most others.

 

From an occasional reluctance the change gear, to an audible noise emanating from the engine bay, all in the space of around a week.

 

If I have a one piece of advice it is to get out of your car every so often with the engine running and listen for unusual noises.

 

Doing this has just saved me well over £3,000.

 

Had the garage not squeezed me in this afternoon it could easily have been a different story, the mechanic reckoned I had only a few hundred miles left before needing a new box.

 

Here is my pressure plate, notice the huge piece missing, it was this missing piece that was flying around the gearbox trying to eat its way out. Luckily it was recovered intact with no other damage to the gearbox. They fitted a new LUK clutch and DMF for £600 inc. VAT...

 

 

For what it's worth my local Skoda dealer quoted £1,500 for the exact same work  , goodwill or not it wasn't worth the risk.

 

The car is now even better than it was, super smooth and now the weak Sachs clutch is where it belongs (on the scrapheap) I can now sleep easy!

 

All diesel 6 speed owners, get out there and listen to your cars now!

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

Exactly the same as mine, and every other example of this known, long-standing,original design fault. I celebrate everyone who manages to get a Goodwill contribution, but that's exactly what it is; a contribution. Hundreds of loyal Skoda customers are thousands of pounds out of pocket, and thinking themselves lucky not to have had more money effectively stolen from them through a fault that was designed-in and incubating in the car from the moment it rolled out of the showroom. How many more are out there that haven't failed...yet? Yours? Is a known, proven fix in place, or will thousands more worldwide be saying "Wow, I'm really grateful Skoda let me pay ONLY £1200 to fix their incompetent design"? How many have had a second Sachs clutch fitted? (What an irony that would be) I'm no longer a Skoda owner (having had several) but I'm damned annoyed.

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

Trawl this thread, the photos are there. Not a pretty sight.

[Clutch Eats Gearbox and Bank Balance!]

You might have read my worryingly similar tale of woe here...

 

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/418475-occasional-reluctance-changing-from-2nd-to-3rd/

 

At 06:30am this morning I jumped into the car and opened the door to listen for the noise, it was clearly there. Dipping the clutch made the noise go away, releasing the clutch made the noise come back, except this time with a horrible metallic grinding noise. Case closed.

 

I've no choice but to limp it up the road to the local independent garage.

 

The most worrying thing is the noises are completely inaudible from inside the car. If it wasn't for a slight change to the gear change I would still be completely non the wiser, until the eventual point of the gearbox eating itself. Be warned guys.

Silver1011:  Be aware that once it's with your local independent, you have forfeited any chance of a Skoda contribution, whatever the problem.