How's it handling the snow?

[dieselV6]

Now that's a dangerous equasion - always put the ones in better condition / more suitable grip surface to the rear axle.

With your setup, once you go into the pendulum swing and go sideways from side to side, you'll know what I mean, as there's no way out of it other than hit the brakes and hope you'll survive. The ESP won't save you, if the rear axle has no grip.

Take my word for it, I know the subject

Well, UK is no Finland, and I drive with full understanding of possible consequences.

Plus Octavia TDI is a veary heavy front car, you do not need much grip on the rear to remain on the road nor to steer the car. I did test the skidding for fun more than a few times, and as I said earlier it is just roundabouts you need to worry about because of limited space and tight turn radius.

As for your knowing the subject, I do not think your ESP works, at least not in the same way as mine and most other people does :p

As soon as the rear kicks out, ESP works on both front and rear wheels - if the rears have no grip, you effectively steer a 2_wheel_front_plus_skis_at_rear German snow scooter and every time I have a chance to try ESP, I am surprised how well it works.

Anyway, for serious driving in winter conditions (and I mean mainland Europe, because even the biggest snowfall in London area was just a mere inconvenience), I use all 4 winters and recommend likewise. I have driven continuous 100 miles plus on loose snow a few years back, and lets just say the fear factor really wears out after first hour or so - in the end it was quite enjoyable.

The real trick is not to count on winter tyres / ESP or any other accessories, but to plan your braking at least 30 seconds in advance

[Chris Dut]

Now that's a dangerous equasion - always put the ones in better condition / more suitable grip surface to the rear axle. Might not seem like a smart thing to do, but that's exactly what you need to do, especially in the winter. In fact, that's illegal at least here in Finland, as you're not allowed to have summer and winter tyres (or summer and all-weather ones) underneath the car simultaneously. It's either, or. With your setup, once you go into the pendulum swing and go sideways from side to side, you'll know what I mean, as there's no way out of it other than hit the brakes and hope you'll survive. The ESP won't save you, if the rear axle has no grip. And the fact that the front axle grips, only makes it worse, as the front becomes an anchoring point, around which the car's tail is wagging.

I use Nokian HP (the 7-series being the latest ones. the older 4 and 5 series are also excellent) winter tyres, that I swap every two seasons for the new ones. In Finland, you're obliged to be driving winter tyres during December, January and February. Take my word for it, I know the subject

Well, UK is no Finland, and I drive with full understanding of possible consequences.

Plus Octavia TDI is a veary heavy front car, you do not need much grip on the rear to remain on the road nor to steer the car. I did test the skidding for fun more than a few times, and as I said earlier it is just roundabouts you need to worry about because of limited space and tight turn radius.

As for your knowing the subject, I do not think your ESP works, at least not in the same way as mine and most other people does :p

As soon as the rear kicks out, ESP works on both front and rear wheels - if the rears have no grip, you effectively steer a 2_wheel_front_plus_skis_at_rear German snow scooter and every time I have a chance to try ESP, I am surprised how well it works.

Anyway, for serious driving in winter conditions (and I mean mainland Europe, because even the biggest snowfall in London area was just a mere inconvenience), I use all 4 winters and recommend likewise. I have driven continuous 100 miles plus on loose snow a few years back, and lets just say the fear factor really wears out after first hour or so - in the end it was quite enjoyable.

The real trick is not to count on winter tyres / ESP or any other accessories, but to plan your braking at least 30 seconds in advance

At which point did Bluespre say the uk is finland?

Regardless of what engine'd vehicle is driven, weather it be 1.2 or a 3 litre v6 you as a driver need more grip on the rear of the vehicle and not the front, this is a proven fact

Again you might think you know best but i can assure you countless tyre companies/manufactures will correct you on your limited knowledge

Where you state the ESP works on both front and rear wheels at the same time, this again is incorrect, if this was the case all 4 wheels would have the brakes applied and have the complete oposite effect of which the ESP is trying to do

If the rear of the vehicle oversteers out to the left as you are turning right the ESP system with brake the front left wheel to slow/stop the motion of the vehicle and bring it back on its axis

likewise if the vehicle understeers as you are going through a right hand bend the ESP will brake the right rear wheel to bring the vehicle back on it axis

Hope this clears up some confusion

[dieselV6]

Why not just try it out insteand of writing long and potentially flaming posts?

I did and if the rear loses grip it is the front that corrects the course.

There is an excellent picture here

http://www.4x4abc.com/ML320/ML320_ESP_gr.html

I believe the picture on the left (oversteer) is the situation I refer to. If rear loses grip e.g. in a roundabout or over a straight slippery section of the road, you get oversteer, and it is corrected by braking the outer front wheel.

ESP needs to brake wheels on one side to work, does not matter front or rear. and at least in situation with no rear grip it seems to do the fronts too.

The pictures in he link show clearly that in oversteer the front wheel is braked, based on my experience also in understeer when there is skid on the rear wheels (detectable via ABS), also a front wheel is braked.

I recommend checking the facts before denying the facts.

Edit: and once again: The real trick is not to count on winter tyres / ESP or any other accessories, but to plan your braking at least 30 seconds in advance

Edited 27 January, 2010 by dieselV6

[Chris Dut]

Why not just try it out insteand of writing long and potentially flaming posts?

I did and if the rear loses grip it is the front that corrects the course.

There is an excellent picture here

http://www.4x4abc.com/ML320/ML320_ESP_gr.html

I believe the picture on the left (oversteer) is the situation I refer to. If rear loses grip e.g. in a roundabout or over a straight slippery section of the road, you get oversteer, and it is corrected by braking the outer front wheel.

ESP needs to brake wheels on one side to work, does not matter front or rear. and at least in situation with no rear grip it seems to do the fronts too.

The pictures in he link show clearly that in oversteer the front wheel is braked, based on my experience also in understeer when there is skid on the rear wheels (detectable via ABS), also a front wheel is braked.

I recommend checking the facts before denying the facts.

Edit: and once again: The real trick is not to count on winter tyres / ESP or any other accessories, but to plan your braking at least 30 seconds in advance

Apologese if you have taken offence to my tone and reply

but how do you know i havent tried it out? how do you know that being a vw master tech I havent been on a driving experience with VW to show and highlight the way systems work and how to drive using these systems to your advantage?

thats correct, you dont and yes I have.

It wasnt meant to be flaming post, more a reply to your cutting post to someone who drives in snow conditions every year for months on end and yet you seem to think you know better then he and everyone else

In your original post you stated "ESP brakes on front and rear wheels in an over steer situation" this is incorrect like I posted to correct you the first time, only the front outer wheel is braked.

In an understeer situation the last thing you want to do is brake one of the front steering wheels, this will loose you all steering capability of that wheel and only make the understeering worse.

Its not me who needs to check their facts tho to be fair

EDIT *understeer isnt a skid of the rear wheels as you have said in your post buddy*

Edited 27 January, 2010 by Chris Dut

[TheFinn]

Well, I do think that snow conditions in UK and in Finland do not have much in common.

Anyway, I'm right now on eastern coast of Sweden with my Superb. It's been snowing all day - predictions this morning were 8 to 12 inches of snow during this day alone and tomorrow some more. Blizzard is supposed to last two to three days. I'm on Michelin X-Ice2 friction tyres and this combination feels great. For deep snow 4x4 would be in order.

[dieselV6]

Well, I do think that snow conditions in UK and in Finland do not have much in common.

Anyway, I'm right now on eastern coast of Sweden with my Superb. It's been snowing all day - predictions this morning were 8 to 12 inches of snow during this day alone and tomorrow some more. Blizzard is supposed to last two to three days. I'm on Michelin X-Ice2 friction tyres and this combination feels great. For deep snow 4x4 would be in order.

It wasnt meant to be flaming post, more a reply to your cutting post to someone who drives in snow conditions every year for months on end and yet you seem to think you know better then he and everyone else

In your original post you stated "ESP brakes on front and rear wheels in an over steer situation" this is incorrect like I posted to correct you the first time, only the front outer wheel is braked.

In an understeer situation the last thing you want to do is brake one of the front steering wheels, this will loose you all steering capability of that wheel and only make the understeering worse.

EDIT *understeer isnt a skid of the rear wheels as you have said in your post buddy*

This is what I wrote:

1. UK is no Finland - we do not drive in deep snow here, worst case is some snow and ice underneath. I have never lost traction fully in the UK, and I did on several occassions in Europe. You might have noticed that the opinion of the original poster on this topic is similar - UK's worst winter looks lke early autumn to a Finnish person. I have friends in Oulu and know what they describe as winter. I do not know better than everyone else, merely posting my experience and correcting BS posted by others claiming that ESP works on rear wheels only

2. As soon as the rear kicks out, ESP works on both front and rear wheels - if the rears have no grip, you effectively steer a 2_wheel_front_plus_skis_at_rear German snow scooter and every time I have a chance to try ESP, I am surprised how well it works.

If and only if the rear wheels have no grip altogether, braking inner front wheel does not increase understeer - if you want to argue this point, think how battle tanks turn, and they have only 2 tracks .

I stated that ESP runs on all wheels because there are posts in this thread claiming that it only works on rear ones, and that is incorrect, ESP works any wheel that will effect change of course towards the desired one

3. ESP needs to brake wheels on one side to work, does not matter front or rear. and at least in situation with no rear grip it seems to do the fronts too. Quite probably in situations where there is grip on all wheels, it does outer front for oversteer and inner rear for understeer because this is optimum behaviour. That still does not change the fact that when rear loses grip because of slippery rear tyres, you are dealing with oversteer and it is the front wheels that will be corrected.

Finally, in earlier post:

The other car, Octavia 1.9tdi, only has 2 all-weather Nokian WR tyres on the front.

This still works fine except in sharp turns on loose snow, where the back kicks out a lot for the true rear wheel drive experience

That refers to oversteer. If you drive sensibly and have winter tyres on front, you do not really experience understeer. If you experience understeer with winter tyres on front in any other situation than driving for fun in an empty snowed car park, you were driving too fast anyway and about to end up in a ditch.

If you managed to read anything else from my posts on this topic, my advice is to read them again, especially this sentence:.

The pictures in he link show clearly that in oversteer the front wheel is braked, (second part of the sentence here) based on my experience also in understeer when there is skid on the rear wheels (detectable via ABS), also a front wheel is braked. So, if you are trying to turn sharp but go straight instead, ESP intervenes on inner rear wheel. If it detects that the rear wheels are slipping, it also intervenes on the inner front wheel. Basically, the ESP, ABS, EDL and Traction control activities are all interlinked.

Having direct experience of VW and Skoda main dealership technicians in maintaining and repeatedly breaking my Octavia's engine, supplying incorrect parts and overcharging for labour, I must honestly state that I prefer to look for good advice as far away from VW technical personnel as possible., and the factless nature of your post and distorting my statements are very typical of VW UK.

[allclownsareevi]

Having direct experience of VW and Skoda main dealership technicians in maintaining and repeatedly breaking my Octavia's engine, supplying incorrect parts and overcharging for labour, I must honestly state that I prefer to look for good advice as far away from VW technical personnel as possible., and the factless nature of your post and distorting my statements are very typical of VW UK.

This isn't going to end nicely.

My understanding of ESP or DSC is that it basically independently controls the braking of all four wheels to keep the car traveling in it's intended direction. A computer monitors linear and lateral sensors as well as wheel speeds, steering angle and revs to assess what's happening. It does this many times a second. I was trained to drive to a high standard, a higher standard than police pursuit drivers in fact. I've experienced what it's like to drive with and without it and there's nothing a driver can do to recreate ESP/DSC manually ... we're just not that good. One thing I do know is you wouldn't want to be without it at high speeds. I have to be honest though without going and reading up on exactly how each ESP/DSC setup is programmed I couldn't tell you precisely which wheels it brakes in order to correct each individual scenario.

As for traction control, sometimes you need to switch that off in the snow and ice.

[Chris Dut]

Again,

he never said that the UK IS finland, that is my point, as for BS posters, who has said the esp only works on the rear wheels? am still re reading to find this, but this is why I posted to correct your incorrect knowlege and understanding, if you dont like this fair enough, but that isnt my fault.

2. As soon as the rear kicks out, ESP works on both front and rear wheels - if the rears have no grip, you effectively steer a 2_wheel_front_plus_skis_at_rear German snow scooter and every time I have a chance to try ESP, I am surprised how well it works.

If and only if the rear wheels have no grip altogether, braking inner front wheel does not increase understeer - if you want to argue this point, think how battle tanks turn, and they have only 2 tracks .

I stated that ESP runs on all wheels because there are posts in this thread claiming that it only works on rear ones, and that is incorrect, ESP works any wheel that will effect change of course towards the desired one

That is exactly what oversteer is, the rear wheels have no grip, hence the rear of the vehicle trying to overtake the front of the vehicle, so its not IF AND ONLY IF because it has just happened, if you think that the rear wheels have grip while this is happening then you dont understand what lose of friction means and I also didnt say braking the front wheel in oversteer causes it to get worse, I think you are actually reading what you want to read and not what I typed

3. ESP needs to brake wheels on one side to work, does not matter front or rear. and at least in situation with no rear grip it seems to do the fronts too. Quite probably in situations where there is grip on all wheels, it does outer front for oversteer and inner rear for understeer because this is optimum behaviour. That still does not change the fact that when rear loses grip because of slippery rear tyres, you are dealing with oversteer and it is the front wheels that will be corrected.

Again, yes it does mater whether its a front or rear wheel that is being braked depending on the situation you are in, please stop thinking it doesnt, again you are incorrect.

The pictures in he link show clearly that in oversteer the front wheel is braked, (second part of the sentence here) based on my experience also in understeer when there is skid on the rear wheels (detectable via ABS), also a front wheel is braked. So, if you are trying to turn sharp but go straight instead, ESP intervenes on inner rear wheel. If it detects that the rear wheels are slipping, it also intervenes on the inner front wheel. Basically, the ESP, ABS, EDL and Traction control activities are all interlinked.

Again, understeer is when the front of the vehicle lose's traction as you are trying to turn a corner, I do not understand how you think you have felt the rears skiding? the front wheels have lost traction, not the rears hence why you are understeering.

and yes braking a front wheel which has already lost traction due to understeering will only increase the understeer it will not have any positive effect as it cant

it will only brake a rear wheel, to trim the car back out of the understeer, if it cant do this then it will continue to try untill it either pulls back on course or you crash

Having direct experience of VW and Skoda main dealership technicians in maintaining and repeatedly breaking my Octavia's engine, supplying incorrect parts and overcharging for labour, I must honestly state that I prefer to look for good advice as far away from VW technical personnel as possible., and the factless nature of your post and distorting my statements are very typical of VW UK.

first thing, dont tar all people with the same brush, if you have had bad personal experiences at dealerships this doesnt make every other dealership/technician the same, this is a typical attitdude of small narrow minded individuals

before posting again, please go and get advice on how the ESP system works, but please get it from a qualifed individual and not an internet webpage

please at which point have I distorted your posts? I have interpreted your posts how you have written them and I how have read them

as for being factless? pull your head out of your own arse and re read my posts, I have only and ever stated how an esp system works, this is not factless, this is based on knowledge, training and personal experience

again if you dont like this, this isnt my fault, I have only tried to correct your incorrect understanding on what happens and when

I can pm you my mobile number so we can personally talk about this, I have no problem with this at all

Edited 28 January, 2010 by Chris Dut

[dieselV6]

1. Please proceed to a well iced-up car park and try to make sharp turn (without ESP). You can brake while doing this for a good measure

You will find that in at least several attempts all 4 wheels have no traction and the car proceeds straight, even when the rear is not stepping out. This is what I described as an understeer with no traction on rear wheels - the back is not stepping out, yet you still go in the wrong direction, ie straight into a ditch.

2. Please take your medication, or consult your doctor because the current one is not working. Though to be fair, I do understand how you may feel extremely frustrated working for a VW dealership having direct experience of some of them. If you think this is my opinion only, please Google "VW dealer messed up my car". Incidentally, do you not have any cars to fix, or is your forum time going out of some poor souls' timing belt+water pump budget?

In any case my sincere apologies to everyone else who actually wanted to share their winter experience rather than listen to a frustrated main VW dealer employee rants.

Edited 29 January, 2010 by dieselV6

[Chris Dut]

1. Please proceed to a well iced-up car park and try to make sharp turn (without ESP). You can brake while doing this for a good measure

You will find that in at least several attempts all 4 wheels have no traction and the car proceeds straight, even when the rear is not stepping out. This is what I described as an understeer with no traction on rear wheels - the back is not stepping out, yet you still go in the wrong direction, ie straight into a ditch.

Yep, this started out as understeer, but now you have applied the brakes in an attempt to stop you are now uncontrolable sliding and not understeering anymore

2. Please take your medication, or consult your doctor because the current one is not working. Though to be fair, I do understand how you may feel extremely frustrated working for a VW dealership having direct experience of some of them. If you think this is my opinion only, please Google "VW dealer messed up my car". Incidentally, do you not have any cars to fix, or is your forum time going out of some poor souls' timing belt+water pump budget?

In any case my sincere apologies to everyone else who actually wanted to share their winter experience rather than listen to a frustrated main VW dealer employee rants.

Well done fella, you have now shown yourself to be the complete idiot I first thought you where, the only thing that frustrates me is your complete lack of understanding and ability to know when you are talking utter *******s, I actually feel very sorry for you that you have had to resort to personal attacks but this just goes to show how small minded an individual you actually are, well done I take my hat off to you

Edited 29 January, 2010 by Chris Dut

[dieselV6]

Yep, this started out as understeer, but now you have applied the brakes in an attempt to stop you are now uncontrolable sliding and not understeering anymore

Well done fella, you have now shown yourself to be the complete idiot I first thought you where, the only thing that frustrates me is your complete lack of understanding and ability to know when you are talking utter *******s, I actually feel very sorry for you that you have had to resort to personal attacks but this just goes to show how small minded an individual you actually are, well done I take my hat off to you

Re:1 Understeer.

I am glad you are still capable of admitting that such a situation may occur, in fact I can assure you that you can induce it without braking too. You just need smooth enough ice. Now please switch ESP on and you will find that your "uncontrollable sliding forward that is definitely 100% not understeer at all" is corrected via inner front wheel braking by the ESP.

you have now shown yourself to be the complete idiot I first thought you where, the only thing that frustrates me is your complete lack of understanding and ability to know when you are talking utter *******s, I actually feel very sorry for you that you have had to resort to personal attacks but this just goes to show how small minded an individual you actually are

...

this is a typical attitdude of small narrow minded individuals

...

pull your head out of your own arse

...

you seem to think you know better then he and everyone else

...

*understeer isnt a skid of the rear wheels as you have said in your post buddy*

...

Re:2. Personal attacks

Once again, stronger medication required.

Moderator?

[dieselV6]

This isn't going to end nicely.

As a 6-year-old would say: "he started it" :'(

Anyway, today alone 8in of snow fell here in South Germany and it's still not quite letting up, I hope my flight back to the UK tonight is not cancelled.

I wonder what the weather will be like next week as I'm driving my Superb over to Germany - with four winter tyres, ESP switched on , Autosocks, and snow chains in the boot. Studded tyres would be nice but are not allowed :(

[Chris Dut]

Re:1 Understeer.

I am glad you are still capable of admitting that such a situation may occur, in fact I can assure you that you can induce it without braking too. You just need smooth enough ice. Now please switch ESP on and you will find that your "uncontrollable sliding forward that is definitely 100% not understeer at all" is corrected via inner front wheel braking by the ESP.

Re:2. Personal attacks

Once again, stronger medication required.

Moderator?

Understeering doesnt invole the rear wheels, it is understeer because the front steering wheels of the car have lost traction and the car continues on a course other than the one you want, and turning the steering wheel has no change of this, the rear wheels are still turning and will have traction, this might not be full traction but it might well be too. This is why braking a front wheel in this situation will never happen and if it did would make the understeer worse, but in understeer ESP will only try to brake a rear wheel to correct the understeer if it can

I said it was uncontrollable once you have put your foot on the brake, not before so please read what i type and dont make it up. This is because as soon as the brake is applied to a vehicle that is already sliding in understeer and oversteer it will have locked the wheels up that have lost traction, if you cant grasp this then this is where you will go wrong

this is why I said it is uncontrollable

but also please tell me how ESP can apply a brake to any of the wheels if you already have the brakes applied by yourself or how can ESP have any effect to a wheel that has no traction because it is already sliding in understeer or oversteer?

thats right it doesnt, it cant over ride the brake input of the driver and it wont brake a wheel that alreay has no traction as this will have no effect

Please stop trying to tell me how something works when I already know

and yes I said you think you know more than everyone else, because the way you have continued to post stuff that doesnt make sense or happen and think they are correct

yes I said you need to pull your head out of your own arse and yes you are small minded, all of these are a response to you becoming very bitter over your lack of understanding and being corrected

but to go on and personally attack someones profession, state of mental health and the medication they might be taking just goes to show how immature and petty you are bud, I offered to ring you to discuss things early on but you continued with the public personal rubbish you typed, well done.

then asking for the moderator? whats up? are bigger boys going to kicking sand in your face?

again if you want to discuss it then pm me like i've already asked you to do.

apologese to allclowns and all the other forum members tho as this has taken it completely off topic, soz clowns, I wont kick your arse on the MW2 later haha.

but if you still think you are right dieselV6 have a watch of these, just a quick search shows what happens and when

Edited 31 January, 2010 by Chris Dut

[allclownsareevi]

soz clowns, I wont kick your arse on the MW2 later haha

You just lost ALL credibility with that comment man.

[Chris Dut]

You just lost ALL credibility with that comment man.

whatever :p

[domhnall]

This is what I wrote:

1. UK is no Finland - we do not drive in deep snow here, worst case is some snow and ice underneath. I have never lost traction fully in the UK,

Agreed it's not the same as Finland but y'see when the police shut the snow gates on the main trunk roads? They don't do it coz it's fairy dust, it's deep snow

I have lost traction here in the UK, but once I switch over to Nokian tyres that problem goes away

[dieselV6]

Domhnall, I do use Nokian WRs and have never fully lost traction in the UK, so I would say we are in agreement.

Edited 1 February, 2010 by dieselV6

[allclownsareevi]

I'd consider a set of winter Nokians if I lived anywhere north of the border too. As it is, hardly worth it where I live. I'm not covering enough miles right now to warrant the purchase.

Have seen adverts for those autosocks too. As a product they look pretty flimsy but they look like they work impressively well.

[dieselV6]

Hi Chris

I had a brief look at the videos you posted and they simply show basic ESP operation.

But that was not the point of my original email - I stated that ESP works on any wheel, front or rear depending on situation. This is what BluesPre stated incorrectly, he said ESP wont save you when rear loses grip.

Look at post #21by BluesPre

With your setup, once you go into the pendulum swing and go sideways from side to side, you'll know what I mean, as there's no way out of it other than hit the brakes and hope you'll survive. The ESP won't save you, if the rear axle has no grip. And the fact that the front axle grips, only makes it worse, as the front becomes an anchoring point, around which the car's tail is wagging.

The ESP will save you by braking correct front wheel exactly in this situation, as shown twice in your very own movie links. rear tyres have nothing to do with this, and a lot more to do with ESP not saving you from understeer.

I merely added on top that from my experience, if the rear wheels lose grip and the front ones mostly lose grip (ie you are going straight or turning but too slow), ESP does seem to brake inside front wheel and it does have effect, just like braking with your legs sitting on a sledge going downhill has the effect of changing direction of travel. Probably to do with the fact that the slip on front wheels is only partial. Please do try this out in a snowed/iced car park before denying.

By the way, I did actually complain to moderator about your language and personal attacks, but his 2 replies clearly indicate that using offensive language in the posts is OK, and he does not give $hit. So for f##ks sake, admit you went quite a bit over the line with the personal remarks just like I did later in response, and let us not argue anymore... :yes: