I was chatting with a friend about charging points, and how she was unable to have one at her house.

I said to her "People don't have a petrol station at home, why should they have a charging point?".

 

This got me thinking, that charging points at home will be a new delineator between the haves and have-nots.

The "haves" will be able to charge at home.

The "have-nots" will have to travel to charge their budget electric vehicles, that's if they can afford them.

 

EDIT: Spelt the flipping title wrong. Could a mod correct, please?

Edited 20 June, 20223 yr by cheezemonkhai
OP request - Spelling

I've said this previously years ago, there'll be a divide between have driveways and have-not.

With energy price ever increasing, the poverty divide will also be seen in solar panel have and have-not.

 

But your statement comparing petrol station vs charge point is not quite correct. EV's can charge at different speeds, mainly destination AC "fast" charging and en-route rapid charging. Charging at home or near home is considered destination charging, having the ability to do this makes EV ownership so much easier and much cheaper. So the have-charge-point/driveway people can drive 3p/mile while have-not will have to drive at cost of 9p/mile.

 

That's why people should have charge point at home, because the car is parked unused for vast majority of the time. The batteries in EV are a valuable asset that can be used to help the grid by charging overnight (and in the future, feed back into the house to reduce cost of leccy during peak times)

Edited 20 June, 20223 yr by wyx087

3 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I've said this previously years ago, there'll be a divide between have driveways and have-not.

With energy price ever increasing, the poverty divide will also be seen in solar panel have and have-not.

 

But your statement comparing petrol station vs charge point is not quite correct. EV's can charge at different speeds, mainly destination AC "fast" charging and en-route rapid charging. Charging at home or near home is considered destination charging, having the ability to do this makes EV ownership so much easier and much cheaper. So the have-charge-point/driveway people can drive 3p/mile while have-not will have to drive at cost of 9p/mile.

 

That's why people should have charge point at home, because the car is parked unused for vast majority of the time. The batteries in EV are a valuable asset that can be used to help the grid by charging overnight (and in the future, feed back into the house to reduce cost of leccy during peak times)

Thanks for the extra info, I am quite the EV newbie.

Thinking about it, there's also a penalty in time.

It'll be like an extra commuting journey for some people.

Well, it'll be similar to currently visiting fuel stations........ if/when there are as numerous charging hubs as petrol stations.

 

The hope is to have many cheaper lamp-post or other street level charging to enable less time wasted going to rapid chargers. But it's like parking in front of one's house on a terraced street, pot luck! Which is to say not ideal if you actually need a charge for next day.

 

 

TBH it's the same with everything:

Poorer people can't afford to buy bigger houses, thereby don't have off-street space for car (no EV, higher cost of mobility), no in-door space for storage (no bulk buy discount, higher cost of living) and if living in flats, don't have roof access for solar panels (energy poverty).

 

 

http://www.drivedundeeelectric.co.uk/dundee

Where they come up with the 51% mentioned here i have no idea.  It is the 49% that must be a total crap figure that is a figment of someones imagination.

 

As many as 50% certainly do not have driveways or off street parking.

As many as 80 % if they bothered to get the correct numbers.

http://drivedundeeelectric.co.uk/multi-storey-car-parks

 

http://drivedundeeelectric.co.uk/on-street-charging-posts

 

The divide might be nothing to do with if you can charge at home.

Plenty can charge at home but without a cheap charging tariff they are not charging at home.

 

Public and workplace charging can be cheaper or even free. 

 (3 prestige cars EV /Hybrids and an ID3 are charging right now free at my local Tesco and have been there so far for hours they will be there for many hours more. All have home chargers.)

 

People get cars & vans cheap or free from their work / employer and might have no home charging. 

That are lots and lots of EV drivers.

 

I am tight and charge free where and when a can and i could have a home charger more than just one that uses a 3 pin plug but that will be only used now in to defrost the car if even then.

 

Loads of Disabled people or the family / driver in the UK now have EV's from Motability for under £10 a day and have no Home Charger Facilities. 

Lots of people not working / retired have PHEV's or BEV's and no home chargers.

 

The divide is how much people pay to have an EV / PHEV and how much it costs to charge and can they afford them.

Public charging cost is making some just run an ICE vehicle or PHEV if they need to travel distances in areas with crap public charging, or expensive charging or just not enough chargers for those now needing to charge cars when not near home, or cheaper than at home.

Edited 20 June, 20223 yr by roottoot

54 minutes ago, roottoot said:

The divide is how much people pay to have an EV / PHEV and how much it costs to charge and can they afford them.

I think there are a lot of factors that will cause the divide between the haves and have-nots.

But clearly, the early adopters of EVs were wealthy people, and as prices dropped and infrastructure grew, more people bought EVs.

 

You raise a lot of interesting points I hadn't considered, like company vehicles. Perhaps the government will apply a punitive tax to company vehicles that are not EVs, thus effectively forcing some company drivers into EVs.

Some people can't afford to run an ICE car now, never mind an EV.

Yet there are some affluent people in congested cities who opt out of car ownership in preference to public transport, so it's not all about finances. (That said, regular commuting on the rail network can be surprisingly pricey.)

Whilst grants for homes are no longer permitted, the grants for landlords are there and it is significant...

There are Rural grants available in Scotland.  What the UK says about grants and chargers might apply to all of the UK but devolved governments can still do their own thing.

There are Business User Grants and interest free loans for new & used EV's in Scotland. Cars, Vans, Scooter / Mopeds / Motor Bikes.

 

.........................

Early adopters of EV's need not have been wealthy people and can be getting none means tested benefits or just a vehicle for work, taxi drivers, couriers, trades people etc.

Plenty Kangoo Electrics, Zoe etc, Leafs were on the road and wealthy people were not interested in them.

1 hour ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Whilst grants for homes are no longer permitted, the grants for landlords are there and it is significant...

I did not know that...

Last update 29th April 2022.

http://www.gov.uk/government/collections/government-grants-for-low-emission-vehicles

 

http://energysavingtrust.org.uk/grants-and-loans/residential-landowners-electric-vehicle-chargepoint-scheme

 

 

 

 

Edited 20 June, 20223 yr by roottoot

5 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Well, it'll be similar to currently visiting fuel stations........ if/when there are as numerous charging hubs as petrol stations.

 

The hope is to have many cheaper lamp-post or other street level charging to enable less time wasted going to rapid chargers. But it's like parking in front of one's house on a terraced street, pot luck! Which is to say not ideal if you actually need a charge for next day.

 

 

TBH it's the same with everything:

Poorer people can't afford to buy bigger houses, thereby don't have off-street space for car (no EV, higher cost of mobility), no in-door space for storage (no bulk buy discount, higher cost of living) and if living in flats, don't have roof access for solar panels (energy poverty).

 

 

 

The boot theory.

https://moneywise.com/managing-money/budgeting/boots-theory-of-socioeconomic-unfairness#:~:text=A man who could afford,boots theory of socioeconomic unfairness.

There are hundreds, if not thousands, or kerbside chargers in London....

Some dedicated post, some built in to lamp posts, this has been happening for at least 2 years but I use to hear more about it when my company owned Source London but now it is sold to Total I hear less about it.

 

5 hours ago, lol-lol said:

There are hundreds, if not thousands, or kerbside chargers in London....

Some dedicated post, some built in to lamp posts, this has been happening for at least 2 years but I use to hear more about it when my company owned Source London but now it is sold to Total I hear less about it.

 

London, with another cross rail coming, whilst the rest of the country get next to nothing…

 

Still I’m sure charging infrastructure in London will benefit the whole country 🙄🙄🙄

 

Rather than doing more for those with the best public transport in the country, perhaps funding should go to those areas where car is the only choice!

5 hours ago, @Lee said:

 

The boot theory.

https://moneywise.com/managing-money/budgeting/boots-theory-of-socioeconomic-unfairness#:~:text=A man who could afford,boots theory of socioeconomic unfairness.

Thank you! Learn something every day, I knew this must be widely known as some kind of phenomenon.

 

But I think in today's credit-based economy, it's more to do with living spaces (eg driveway, space to store bulk buy) and/or energy (eg charging cost, day-time expensive rate offset).

 

5 hours ago, lol-lol said:

There are hundreds, if not thousands, or kerbside chargers in London....

Some dedicated post, some built in to lamp posts, this has been happening for at least 2 years but I use to hear more about it when my company owned Source London but now it is sold to Total I hear less about it.

 

I've seen many Ubitricity points pop up near where I live , N London. It's not as dense as Westminster, but it's becoming an option when paired with an e-scooter for last mile or so. But at 32p/kWh it's not attractive.

 

Sort of related, I've just completed my switch from Bulb EV tariff 8p/kWh to Octopus Go at 7.5p/kWh, both 35p at other times. But the Go tariff is fixed for 1 year, meaning when price cap increases to >35p/kWh come September, I'll still be able to charge at 7.5p/kWh overnight.

This Government have the answer for those that want a better home, maybe with off street parking,  or a better car or standard of living / income.

 

Get a better education, work longer hours and harder or just a better job, or more jobs, or get elected to the Parliament. 

I hope people are not making the switch to EV's intending to have 10 years or more motoring from them (entirely plausible given the simplicity and reliability) and budgetting on the electricity (fuel) price continuing to be in the order of 7.5p per kwh.

 

Very soon the loss of fuel duty to the government (currently 53p per litre) will result in similar charges being levied on electricity consumed for vehicle transport.

 

Also the 35p per kwh peak charge sounds very high to me but perhaps its because I'm used to state controlled energy prices and France having a huge proportion of Nuclear and wind powered electricity generation.

 

The current high Petrol & Diesel prices have insulated the government from the tax losses resulting from the EV take up but that will not continue.

3 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

London, with another cross rail coming, whilst the rest of the country get next to nothing…

 

Still I’m sure charging infrastructure in London will benefit the whole country 🙄🙄🙄

 

Rather than doing more for those with the best public transport in the country, perhaps funding should go to those areas where car is the only choice!

 

I gather Oxford has fitted several types of kerb side chargers and are planning a lot more with their residence.

They already have more than I have seen in any other town in their shopping centre.

There are quite a few different models ie dedicated posts, lamp post used as posts as well as being a lamp post, also saw ones that rise from the floor on the local telly.   https://www.goultralowoxford.org/info/5/chargers

 

Here in Worcester we have considerable numbers of chargers at the local car park and another 26 out at our new train station Parkway as well as the ones in Aldi, Asda, Tesco and Waitrose. Quite a lot of pre-car housing so a big challenge for some, I would like to see banks of them at the Park and Ride as well for such residence.    Train stations should be quite, they should reduce the parking charge or roll the EV charge and parking in to one reasonable amount through the charging amount.  Whole new station is much under used as it opened during Covid and has not recovered yet or maybe never will. 

There will be pickets at Shrub Hill and Foregate but I am not sure anyone will be going out to the new £50M Parkway station where all the EV chargers are.  It is not far off the M5 so perhaps there is a different business model there. 

 

9 hours ago, J.R. said:

I hope people are not making the switch to EV's intending to have 10 years or more motoring from them (entirely plausible given the simplicity and reliability) and budgetting on the electricity (fuel) price continuing to be in the order of 7.5p per kwh.

I think off-peak rates will continue to be very affordable for the foreseeable future, in comparison to peak rates.

 

Case in point: it used to be 5p when it started, then 7p, now 7.5p. Whereas the price-cap rate went from 14p in mid-2010's, to ~20p, jumped to 29p in March. It'll go to 35p very soon.

 

9 hours ago, J.R. said:

Also the 35p per kwh peak charge sounds very high to me but perhaps its because I'm used to state controlled energy prices and France having a huge proportion of Nuclear and wind powered electricity generation.

Current UK price cap is 29p/kWh around here. A 20% increase is not a lot when it can be off-set by on-site micro-generation or avoided entirely via some sort of battery.

 

https://inews.co.uk/news/energy-bills-cut-electric-car-giant-battery-store-cheap-power-1696345

 

9 hours ago, J.R. said:

Very soon the loss of fuel duty to the government (currently 53p per litre) will result in similar charges being levied on electricity consumed for vehicle transport.

Yep, I agree. It will be in the form of a per-mile tax. But won't be exclusively on EV's only as this will kill the switch momentum and make 2035 target unachievable. So i firmly believe EV's will ALWAYS be cheaper (or much cheaper depending on how your charge) to run.

2 mornings now later than my usual getting to the PodPoints at Tesco and the workers have already plugged in their hybrids or ev,s for hours and bogged off to work and earn money.     If it continues like this I might need to start spending some of my Tax Payer funded benefits to charge my car.  That might be the twice yearly £247 that the Scottish system paid me this month, the £326 that I get from the UK on 10th July and £324 in to the Autumn or the £150 before December.  I might even use some electric from the £400 credit that goes on my energy account.   This recession is going to hurt.... Not.    Ps. Just got my fruit for the day at the reduced self for no more than it cost last year or the year before.  That is as benefit of being into supermarkets regularly.  

Edited 21 June, 20223 yr by roottoot

28 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I think off-peak rates will continue to be very affordable for the foreseeable future, in comparison to peak rates.

 

Case in point: it used to be 5p when it started, then 7p, now 7.5p. Whereas the price-cap rate went from 14p in mid-2010's, to ~20p, jumped to 29p in March. It'll go to 35p very soon.

 

Current UK price cap is 29p/kWh around here. A 20% increase is not a lot when it can be off-set by on-site micro-generation or avoided entirely via some sort of battery.

 

https://inews.co.uk/news/energy-bills-cut-electric-car-giant-battery-store-cheap-power-1696345

 

Yep, I agree. It will be in the form of a per-mile tax. But won't be exclusively on EV's only as this will kill the switch momentum and make 2035 target unachievable. So i firmly believe EV's will ALWAYS be cheaper (or much cheaper depending on how your charge) to run.

 

I agree.  There will be even more wind being generated at night which will be very cheap to use and eventually more nuclear.

 

10p or less for a few hours at night is all that is needed for millions of UK users to get most of the electricity they need for the day for the EV and their house, sadly those who cannot take advantage will be paying the high daily rate, 40p plus per kWh and I can even see and introduction of a super rate of 50p per kWh plus for time around 0600 to 0830 in the morning and 1630 to 2000 hours in the evening.

  

England needs to get on with this energy from wind and storage because for the next year's it will be coal, oil and gas and even Diesel Farms generating electricity. Then the cost a fortune now and for ever nuclear.   Those oil companies threatening to not go ahead drilling in the North sea will have no problem finding others ready to take the licence.  Same with those with the licence for offshore wind farms. 

 

Since my local council starting charging last November 23 pence a kWh to charge i have had this at PodPoint at no cost.

and it breaks my heart if i have to buy bananas at full price.

 

1,130 kWh @ 23 pence would have been £260 that my council would have had. 

I have had more than that from PodPoint as if charging for less than 15 minutes i do not log in.

 

When there is a 50kWh charger available at only 28 pence a kWh i would use that when needing a quick charge as my home tariff is almost that.

 

 

Edited 21 June, 20223 yr by roottoot

England needs to get on with energy storage, probably a combination of hydrogen and batteries as part of the national grid.

It's madness that they're getting people to turn the wind farms "off" during times of high usage.

 

To be honest it comes back to the UK needing to own a fair chunk of it's national infrastructure again rather than having it run for profit by companies (Usually state owned) from all over the world.

 

 

The UK owning the National Grid would have been a good idea...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Grid_plc

 

'Taking back control of energy security.'   Just not the UK taking back control.

http://www.nationalgrid.com/gt-announcement

 

2022.

 

 

2019.

 

 

2022.

 

 

 

 

Edited 21 June, 20223 yr by roottoot

On 20/06/2022 at 23:33, J.R. said:

Very soon the loss of fuel duty to the government (currently 53p per litre) will result in similar charges being levied on electricity consumed for vehicle transport.

I very much have this on my radar.

I remember when diesel was quite a bit cheaper than petrol.

That when it was used almost exclusively by taxis, vans, buses etc.

Then diesel cars started being used by the general public, and prices went up and up and up, to the present madness.

I expect electricity to do much the same.

 

One thing I don't think we've mentioned, is the possibility that if EVs drag the domestic price of electricity up as it's taxed more and more by the government, then the poorest among us who cannot afford a vehicle at all, never mind an EV, will find themselves paying a price for electricity that has been inflated through use of something they have no access to. (Sorry if someone's already mentioned this.)

But they will still have to use electricity. However poor, I can't imagine any home in the UK does not use electricity. Perhaps solar panels could be subsidised by means-testing for the poorest people.

 

I can foresee some people will find themselves in the squeezed middle: Too much money to receive means-tested subsidies, but too little money to live comfortably in an increasingly expensive world. Sounds like me, TBH.

 

I think it's reasonable to say that EV prices will drop, perhaps substantially if there's a technological breakthrough or if old technologies are embraced. Perhaps lead-battery vehicles will make a comeback for the poor?