Just at the point the EV nay sayers attempt to undermine the EV revolution Volvo launch the EX 30, no EV premium, quicker tha ICE equivalent cars, that actually cost more, pretty good range and styling that ignores ICE ques and goes straight to what and EV should look like ie and an air sucking and polluting out the back end machine but a clean lined vehicle using the latest headlights etc

 

Better than the current best selling car in the world (The Model Y) (Best selling car, nut just EV with sales looking like hitting 1M this year, overtaking the Corolla)  ?? (It is a bit smaller of course).

https://thedriven.io/2023/05/26/tesla-model-y-overtakes-corolla-to-be-worlds-best-selling-car-in-2023/#:~:text=EV Sales-,Tesla Model Y overtakes Corolla to,best-selling car in 2023&text=The Tesla Model Y electric,the top of the podium.

 

 

Edited 10 June, 20232 yr by lol-lol

Volvo getting it right where nearly all European HQ'd car companies get it wrong, piling up the debt, car sales shrinking and not making EVs at a profit.

 

With Volvo having a premium brand image but with Chinese tech and efficient production, great new models like the EH30 and EH 90 coming out to great plaudits it is looking with Volvo, backed by owners Geely, have the right recipe for keeping and even increasing market share in this time when TESLA sweep almost every other car maker in to oblivion.....

 

 

They'd have to get rid of that god-awful glass slab of a touchscreen monstrosity before I'd even consider one!!

53 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

They'd have to get rid of that god-awful glass slab of a touchscreen monstrosity before I'd even consider one!!

 

Know what you mean but this is what TESLA do and it is difficult to argue with their incredible success in now having the most successful in the world, not just EV, most successful of any car with its Model Y which should hit a million sales this year, not bad for a car that retails from some $50K to $80k range.

 

It may well have production advantages too as that what TESLA also excel at ie making a car in less than 2 hours where many other take about 10 hours.

 

Yes paid in the ass to adjust cabin temperature via the screen rather than a knob but one just needs to adapt, ie use voice command. Millions of TESLA owners have are are adapting to this, it is just another sea change. 

Adapt or Die.  Which is what most car companies are going to do, go the way Blackberry, Nokia etc went with way with mobile phones, Darwinian evolution.

 

How much of that success is just people wanting the latest trending thing, though, especially in light of the various safety concerns over touchscreens?

Millions of people adapt to all sorts of new technology, but that doesn't mean it's the best technology... It often only proves that marketing strategies work.

 

I get a lot of fanboyism from the guys at work with EVs, but when I look at what they have to go through and spend all their time doing just in order to drive a car... A pushbike starts to look surprsingly attractive!

20 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

How much of that success is just people wanting the latest trending thing, though, especially in light of the various safety concerns over touchscreens?

Millions of people adapt to all sorts of new technology, but that doesn't mean it's the best technology... It often only proves that marketing strategies work.

 

I get a lot of fanboyism from the guys at work with EVs, but when I look at what they have to go through and spend all their time doing just in order to drive a car... A pushbike starts to look surprsingly attractive!

 

I suspect the TESLA success is down to EV salary sacrifice, TESLA charging network, TESLA efficiency being top notch and now cheaper and cheaper making it even better value, also safety rating.

 

What has TESLA every done for us, apart from this and many other factors. Bloody Romans.

 

What a joy being back in a right hand drive ICE vehicle with no screen in the middle of the car with any setting, or loads of stuff on the steering wheel and just the stuff needed to occasional change with a left hand when right handed like me.

Voice activated phone and satvav that functions well is a boon.   Via a mobile / smart phone.

 

Waiting your turn occasionally for a few minutes to get to a petrol / diesel pump maybe behind someone towing a caravan is a treat compared to waiting for a EV towing a caravan or just a big battery vehicle wanting to charge to as full as they can get.

 

Why do many in EV's drive just below or well below the NSL much of the time other than when in the vicinity of a charger hub when they are desperate to beat you to it?

Is this what all the performance is for with these cars, loads of show and go rather than range efficiency?

 

Edited 12 June, 20232 yr by toot

41 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

I get a lot of fanboyism from the guys at work with EVs, but when I look at what they have to go through and spend all their time doing just in order to drive a car... A pushbike starts to look surprsingly attractive!

 

I get that feeling everytime I look through the active topics section of this forum seeing threads running to hundreds of pages on subjects like TMC Traffic Events, Android Auto, Carplay, Adaptive Cruise Control, Skoda Connect, Road Sign Recognition, Auto-parking, Bluetooth and loads of others I can't recall, all the gimmicks totally unnecesary for the reliable functioning of a motor vehicle collectively called "tech" which it seems seduces people into selling or trading in perfectly serviceable vehicles to buy a new unreliable and flaky one.

 

It pretty much dominates this forum now compared to the mechanical, electrical and latterly electronic problems which were the majority when I first joined, electronic problems relating to the primary functions, engine, brakes, door locking etc and not superflouos systems.

 

It's not a complaint, simply an observation of the changing times, it would be interesting to see what were the typical subjects when the forum first started.

1 hour ago, Ttaskmaster said:

I get a lot of fanboyism from the guys at work with EVs, but when I look at what they have to go through and spend all their time doing just in order to drive a car... A pushbike starts to look surprsingly attractive!

Not having home charger seems to be the biggest source of problem.

 

There's a lot less mucking about when driving EV's and recharge at home. I've visited public infrastructure probably around 5 times over last 8 months. All other times re-energising the car is not a consideration and no time is wasted on it.

 

 

This push-back against "tech" is sad to see. Cars are driven by emotional beings that are often distracted. Yes, touchscreen have the potential to distract. But I'd take driving past a car with a good touch screen and assistive tech over a 1990's style basic car. The driver is usually the source of problem, having the assistive tech could potentially makes it safer.

 

I think problem is often bad touch screens and bad UI. I try not to operate touch screen in my previous Octavia or Leaf while driving, the UI is bad and it's slow. Whereas I've no problem with quick presses on the Tesla. It's very responsive and most-used items are on the screen ready to be pressed, at worst it's 2 presses using muscle memory.

 

Put it this way, how quick can you get in your car and start driving home after work, with sat-nav set to home. How many button presses?

My previous Octavia is 2 press to set sat-nav, turn the key and change gear.

My Leaf is 3 presses to set sat-nav, press ON and change gear.

My Tesla is change gear.    It integrates with my calendar and pattern, otherwise it's a single swipe of address field to navigate home.

 

Point is, not all touch screen are created equal. I have more faith in Volvo's Google UI (I think?) than VAG or far-east car brands' attempt at writing software.

 

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Adapt or Die.  Which is what most car companies are going to do, go the way Blackberry, Nokia etc went with way with mobile phones, Darwinian evolution.

 

 

Except Nokia still exist as a Finnish company designing, making and selling phones...   so a bad comparison there I'm afraid!

 

(for info Nokia was sold to Microsoft but when Microsoft sold their mobile business the Finish HMD Global bought it back as Nokia)

 

Blackberry also still exist but not as a handset manufacturer - they now sell IT security solutions...   so another bad comparison there too.

I see it now, Londoners setting Sat Nav to drive where they regularly go to and when needing to find their way home by the fastest route with no road closures, snow gates closed causing diversions.

 

Some seem never to drive in parts of the UK where there is poor / broken or no GPS reception or digital radio reception or mobile reception.

These places exist still to these very days.

Even @ EV charger hubs or in their vicinity, and were the Chargers sim can not communicate with anything at times, even a control unit only meters away.

Edited 12 June, 20232 yr by toot

22 minutes ago, skomaz said:

 

Except Nokia still exist as a Finnish company designing, making and selling phones...   so a bad comparison there I'm afraid!

 

(for info Nokia was sold to Microsoft but when Microsoft sold their mobile business the Finish HMD Global bought it back as Nokia)

 

Blackberry also still exist but not as a handset manufacturer - they now sell IT security solutions...   so another bad comparison there too.

 

I was, of course, referring to what we the users user rather than any background or alternate business they move in to.

 

Several car manufacturers have partially moved away from making cars and now use Toll manufacturers but it is still their badged product. TVs the same, mainly Toll manufactured.

 

That is my point.  

 

Unless German (excluding TESLA's Gigafactory) and Japanese manufacturers involve, ie they take the cue from the tanking sales figures and loss of positions in the best sellers chart, then they better look to peripheral areas to work in ie car software, no wait VW have proved to be not too good at that, or something else as China and TESLA are topping the charts in the world's best selling model and country doing the most exporting.

 

I hope the ID2 is a really winner else VAG is probably toast.   

  

1 hour ago, skomaz said:

Except Nokia still exist as a Finnish company designing, making and selling phones...   so a bad comparison there I'm afraid!

So VW/Toyota end up like Nokia is all okay? Millions of jobs at risk due to changes of owners, all for it to end up making ultra-low end products. Or be supplier to a software company.

 

I find the comparison apt. This change to power train is indeed evolve or die. From company culture at the top, right down to production line and to the way software integrates with user experience. Not much different to smart phones vs Blackberry.

 

55 minutes ago, toot said:

there is poor / broken or no GPS reception

GPS doesn't work the same way as mobile signals. Only short sections of road with no GPS, eg tunnels, which vehicles are able to account for using wheel measurements.

It certainly does not work in the same way, but can mean the same thing, that is where it is crap,

Like around about airports, Park and Rides, Military Airbases and Submarine bases / naval ports. 

 

You know how you know were it does not work, by being there and it not working.

 

You know where Mobile Phone reception can just go?

Where there is already dodge reception then an incident like a crash and the system to the general public is on reduced power.

Funnily on roads like in Scotland where a road closure might mean it takes a while for the diversion to be in place and the diversion can be hours longer.

Edited 12 June, 20232 yr by toot

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Put it this way, how quick can you get in your car and start driving home after work, with sat-nav set to home. How many button presses?

 

No button presses, most people would know their way home from work and not need a shatnav or a mobile phone to navigate for them, you know, the sort of people that keep their eyes on the road and look (and know) where they are going.

 

A dying breed I fear, more and more people spend 5 minutes at their destination staring into their mobile phones, probably did the same after getting in their car because they had to look where they were walking to get to their vehicle and judging by the amount of people that stop and block my driveway do the same several times during the journey.

 

Still better that then them doing the same while driving staring at and pressing buttons on the glass tea tray taking up the middle of the dashboard.

1 minute ago, J.R. said:

Still better that then them doing the same while driving

 

Of course soon they will not be driving at all, just notionally in charge of the vehicle while ****tering, that is what it is leading to and regrettably it seems more and more cannot wait for the day.

6 minutes ago, toot said:

It certainly does not work in the same way, but can mean the same thing, there is where it is crap,

Like around about airports, Park and Rides, Military Airbases and Submarine bases / naval ports. 

Unless due to physical blockage (mountains, in tunnels), GPS will just work when there is a large enough view to the sky (eg, at airports or park & ride). Only other explanation is jamming. I doubt airports, park & ride are actively jamming the signal. Civilian jammers are illegal, I think. Not working well around military base is possible due to jamming, but the jammer has to have a reason to be on. 

 

So vast majority of the time, it can be dependent upon to work well enough for car navigation. 

 

2 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

Of course soon they will not be driving at all, just notionally in charge of the vehicle while ****tering, that is what it is leading to and regrettably it seems more and more cannot wait for the day.

You got that right! Commuting is the worst imaginable activity. 

 

Sat-nav work to home was an example, I know the way very well, but just like many people, I still set the satnav to avoid traffic. Traffic are dynamic and turning into a junction after hitting traffic is already too late. On the way home, I can drive down M1 or M25, I need to know which way is the quickest before I get to the junction. 

 

I agree, sitting in the car setting up sat-nav is stupid. It should all be done from the phone before getting to the car. Again, that software experience. 

Jamming, nail on head. 

 Feet for dancing head for thinking and left hand spare for using on the screen while right hand is busy.

3 minutes ago, toot said:

Jamming, nail on head. 

 Feet for dancing head for thinking and left hand spare for using on the screen while right hand is busy.

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/spectrum/interference-enforcement/spectrum-offences/jammers#:~:text=It is a crime to,the Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006.

Quote

It is a crime to use any apparatus, including jammers,   for the purposes of deliberately interfering with wireless telegraphy (radio communications) in the UK. The maximum penalty is two years’ imprisonment and/or an unlimited fine. 

 

Why would civilian airport, park&ride have GPS reception problem? 

No idea,,

Maybe because they use Civilian Airports for military flights & various purposes quite commonly.

  But they do have issues with GPS or lack of, or am i just making that up?

Get out and about in your EV, maybe oop north and see.

 

Serious question.

Will employees & others EV's with their various systems always be allowed into high security locations with onboard cameras, over the air upgrades and communication,

and are they any different from systems already in ICE vehicles.

 

Then as far as Bomb Detection for vehicles and high risk / high security areas how do they access the risk with EV's.

Is putting EV's through an xray going to reveal what they might need to find.

 

 

Edited 12 June, 20232 yr by toot

9 minutes ago, toot said:

Get out and about in your EV, maybe oop north and see.

Only surrounding area, can't make my son sit still for more than an hour or two. So we rarely need charging away from home. 

 

14 minutes ago, toot said:

Will employees & others EV's with their various systems always be allowed into high security locations with onboard cameras, over the air upgrades and communication,

and are they any different from systems already in ICE vehicles.

The cameras, etc. is no different between power trains. 

I think China already bans Tesla cars from visiting sensitive military/political area. 

 

Even if military use civilian airports, they wouldn't jam any signal without a good reason. Anti-drone system are more targeted, not jam-all. 

 

For bomb detection. Obviously the x-ray image will be different. But the principle should be the same: ignore car parts and look for problems. 

4 hours ago, lol-lol said:

I suspect the TESLA success is down to EV salary sacrifice, TESLA charging network, TESLA efficiency being top notch and now cheaper and cheaper making it even better value, also safety rating.

What has TESLA every done for us, apart from this and many other factors. Bloody Romans.

 

OK, so it comes down to me just not being rich enough to afford, and thus appreciate, a Tesla....?

 

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Not having home charger seems to be the biggest source of problem.

There's a lot less mucking about when driving EV's and recharge at home. I've visited public infrastructure probably around 5 times over last 8 months. All other times re-energising the car is not a consideration and no time is wasted on it.

This push-back against "tech" is sad to see. Cars are driven by emotional beings that are often distracted. Yes, touchscreen have the potential to distract. But I'd take driving past a car with a good touch screen and assistive tech over a 1990's style basic car. The driver is usually the source of problem, having the assistive tech could potentially makes it safer.

 

My Tesla is change gear.    It integrates with my calendar and pattern, otherwise it's a single swipe of address field to navigate home.

 

I meant more the EV geeks maintaining spreadsheets of local charging points and the features/specs of each, planning out every step of every journey and factoring in charging times (despite having all that at their solar-powered homes), calculating ranges based on currently reported road speeds, and so on.

They're engineers and proper geeky about it... but in their defence they crunched some numbers and worked out that, due to the environmental impact of production, their cars would have to exceed 230,000 miles before their footprint was lower than my Octy Mk I at the same mileage.

 

I've also watched drivers as more assistive tech has come in, and find them to be far lazier than they used to be. I've even noticed this myself just in going to an automatic. There's less to do in such cars, so your mind wanders more instead of paying attention to the road. Even simple things like allowing a bit more space and time in which to change gears, use the handbrake, etc.

 

However - The point about a Tesla integrating with your calendar and tracking your patterns... That right there just guaranteed that I'll NEVER get a flipping Tesla.

Seriously, it does that??!! It can frak right off, in that case!

 

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

I find the comparison apt. This change to power train is indeed evolve or die. From company culture at the top, right down to production line and to the way software integrates with user experience. Not much different to smart phones vs Blackberry.

 

I've never had a Blackberry, but I have owned phones with a fold-out full-size QWERTY before, and they're still the best phones I've ever had.

Other people seem to agree, as there's a plethora of aftermarket keyboards for smartphones and even small companies making keyboard phones again, like the Psion relative ones.

The new ways are not always the best ways, yet they're often forced upon us because someone makes more money from that.

 

 

19 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

They're engineers and proper geeky about it... but in their defence they crunched some numbers and worked out that, due to the environmental impact of production, their cars would have to exceed 230,000 miles before their footprint was lower than my Octy Mk I at the same mileage.

I find that very hard to believe. EV's generally break even to fossil fueled cars, accounting for EV production vs just fuel burnt in existing ICE cars, after 3-8 years over average mileage, variation is due to grid CO2 emissions. Here's where it was discussed a few days ago: 

 

I used to do that plan A/B/C and calculating distances when driving any distance with Nissan Leaf. I don't do it anymore, just quick glance at charge points near destination and rely on the car to route me to a supercharger if it thinks I may run low. Closer to home, I'd override it because arriving home at 10% is already too much, no need to use public chargers. 

 

21 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

However - The point about a Tesla integrating with your calendar and tracking your patterns... That right there just guaranteed that I'll NEVER get a flipping Tesla.

Seriously, it does that??!! It can frak right off, in that case!

Only commute times to/from work, and calendar entries. When getting in the car at appropriate times, the route to those destination are automatically loaded. Of course, you can turn those features off if you prefer. 

 

The fear of technology is more due to not knowing..... 

7 minutes ago, Ttaskmaster said:

I suspect the TESLA success is down to EV salary sacrifice, TESLA charging network, TESLA efficiency being top notch and now cheaper and cheaper making it even better value, also safety rating.  What has TESLA every done for us, apart from this and many other factors. Bloody Romans.

 

OK, so it comes down to me just not being rich enough to afford, and thus appreciate, a Tesla....?

 

For many TESLA drivers the TESLA cars is just a tool like their laptop and the UK government, like many governments around the world, want to help with the move to lower carbon agenda hence they offer schemes like salary sacrifice for EVs which effectively lower the PCP by 40% or so.    So through this schemes one can get a TESLA model 3 for about £500 pm or a Model Y for just over £600 pm.  For those employees who are given a car allowance then these sorts of prices are within many company cars schemes so the just it from the list are the car arrives.

 

I got my Zoe EV as a private sale, PCP costs be about £280 a month, but a bit of equity from my Octy in, government added a couple of grand at the tail end of the EV grant system plus government grant added £500 for the home charger, making it £449 inc VAT to me but now it is a feature of the house and may well be wanted by buyer when I sell the house.

The salary sacrifice/company car scheme is probably how many TESLA, model 3s and Y are acquired by those TESLA drivers we see on the road.  They can afford the PCP within the company car scheme not afford the TESLA to buy, very few people do that, between 10 and 15% last figures I was between buying and PCP'ing cars.

 

But then one looks at all the other aspects, particularly energy costs per mile.  With the Zoe, as it would be when I hope to get a TESLA to replace my Arkana, charging up at home at 7.5p per kWh saves me and the company a stack of money doing my 20k miles a year.  Charging up at work is free for me and the company I work for, a massive French Logistics company, absorb that and planning to put in work destination chargers at all our warehouses so I should never be more than about 80 miles, and usually less than 40 miles from a works charger.     

 

Yes you are talking about people, workers, who are probably being paid in 75th centile upwards ie £41k upward and a car allowance, never sure it is included in salary data but it certainly is taxed at full rate.  This makes it is even more impressive that it is World wide best selling car currently.  https://www.statista.com/statistics/1224844/monthly-pay-of-employees-uk/ .   But then we in the UK in a country that is so very broke with its £2.5T debt.  We can look back at 2010 at think was it not a better time to only be £1T in debt.

Many countries still give circ £6k to buy and EV which helps EV sales.  Of course government is only giving back some of the General Sales Tax, GST/VAT so it is not really costing these government thousands, they are just not collecting the massive taxes that they do on ICE cars which in my view is correct considering the environmental damage.   

 

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

I find that very hard to believe. EV's generally break even to fossil fueled cars, accounting for EV production vs just fuel burnt in existing ICE cars, after 3-8 years over average mileage, variation is due to grid CO2 emissions. Here's where it was discussed a few days ago: 

I used to do that plan A/B/C and calculating distances when driving any distance with Nissan Leaf. I don't do it anymore, just quick glance at charge points near destination and rely on the car to route me to a supercharger if it thinks I may run low. Closer to home, I'd override it because arriving home at 10% is already too much, no need to use public chargers. 

 

The fear of technology is more due to not knowing..... 

 

These guys calculate the environmental impacts of stuff for a living, mainly the works we do, as a factor of asset cost when we go and whack a new treatment plant in somewhere.

I thought it reasonable to presume they have some idea what they're talking about. They did specify that my ASZ engine was far better for the environment than newer versions with DPFs and the like.

 

And hell yeah, I'd be disabling all that tracking spit... !

It's not so much fear of technology, or of the 'Google-type megacorp' that I expect ultimately runs all that data capture, but of that data falling into the wrong hands as it so frequently does.

 

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

 

For many TESLA drivers the TESLA cars is just a tool like their laptop and the UK government, like many governments around the world, want to help with the move to lower carbon agenda hence they offer schemes like salary sacrifice for EVs which effectively lower the PCP by 40% or so.    So through this schemes one can get a TESLA model 3 for about £500 pm or a Model Y for just over £600 pm.  For those employees who are given a car allowance then these sorts of prices are within many company cars schemes so the just it from the list are the car arrives.

 

 

Yeah, even at £280/mo, I won't be affording something like that. Fuel saved isn't a factor, it's the actual car that costs too much. We don't get car allowance or salary sacrifice, as it's cheaper for the company to maintain fleet vehicles and pool cars.

We also don't own a home, so couldn't install anything either.

So yeah, still a bit of a rich boys' toy from my position.