Graham Butcher

Good job then that the Frontera is cramped in the rear, as it has a very similar frontal impact area of a Kodiaq, bad for pedestrians, but I'm not seeing the electric acceleration that could leave ICE cars behind at the traffic lights, 60kw Scenic, 12.8sec 0-62mph, Kodiaq diesel 148bhp diesel 9.8secs and your Zoe is 9.5secs. That makes both the Scenic and Zoe respond in a similar vein to the average ICE car. Just hope that this new Frontera is better built than its predecessor was.

But who is a reliable source then? It seems to me that there is some truth in all the sources so far put forward, including the ice cubes in a glass, and clearly the one that you suggested is going to make some level difference as it is land based ice, so it will flow into the sea, but that much to cause widespread flooding worldwide and put human existence at risk? I doubt that a lot. The earths surface is 29% land and 71% is ocean, so how high are these glaciers and with all that much ocean it might make a couple of mm increase in level surely it can't realistically be more?

@mac11irl I just simply ask you to do the little experiment with ice cubes floating in a glass of water, mark the level of the water with the ice cubes floating and then wait till the cubes melt and check the water level again, is it the same or lower? It could well be lower as some water may have evaporated, it certainly won't be higher. So how will the ice caps cause sea/ocean levels to rise?

I would not go as far as that at this stage, but I hope that the official documents that are mentioned in the first video do in fact materialise, it has been requested many times for the links to those documents are published. What I was trying to draw attention to is that it could all be a huge scam if these documents exist. The scaremongering about rising sea levels most certainly is a scam and forms a part of the whole Net-Zero theory and policy, and as I said, this is something that each one of us can prove is a scam by placing ice cubes in a glass of water, marking the water level on the glass and when the ice has melted, the water level will be exactly the same. So why are the authorities lying to us? It should at least make us all think about it.

Ditto here as well, but we still know nothing, apparently 😉 You must it seems have had or driven an EV before you can comment, an engineering background and majority of ones working life don't hack it.

Why would it horrify petrol heads?? I honestly don't know anyone who objects to anyone getting and running an EV, if that floats your boat and suits your requirements then I, for one, am really pleased for you. It's still a free country, I hope, and as such you should be free to buy whatever your heart desires, is anyone going to deny that has always been my stance? Now imagine if the shoe was on the other foot and there was a thread called "The truth about ICE cars" and the people with ICE cars were constantly posting things about how good their cars were and at the same rubbishing anyone with an EV, and it was deemed that EVs were from a political point of view, to be the enemy and sales of new EVs were being banned? How would you all react if the positions were to be reversed, that's the acid question here, I think. There is also nothing wrong or weird about what you call petrol heads taking more than a passing interest in the new technology, is there? This is what I and a lot of others who, while not having an EV, are doing.

Dave does make some good points, and also there are some logical reasons for the decline in diesel sales that he does not appear to take into account, such as a lot of new car sales are PHEV, with petrol engines. I saw sales figures the other day that debunked one person's claim that diesel sales were in decline, so who do we believe? My Sister in Law, recently tried to buy a new Toyota ICE car and the only way that she could do that was to buy a hybrid, self charging one. However, with that enclosed charging station, he does exaggerate, a carbon monoxide death trap, really! I used to work as an electrical engineer for the National Bus company and have spent many hours inside a huge bus garage on cold, frosty mornings with up to 100 diesel buses ticking over to get them up to temperature before they went into service with the public. It was an enclosed space, and it was impossible to see the length of 2 buses, 60ft as the air was thick grey exhaust gasses everywhere and your eyes would stream and sting from the fumes. I'm still here to tell the tale and so are the others who, like me, would go and them started before the crews arrive to take them out on service. The people in that shopping / charging centre had better hope that no car, electric or ICE catches fire while in there as the fumes as the smoke will completely fill that in minutes and most car fires, both electric and ICE are far more likely to be the interior on fire in which lots of Cyanide gas will be the end result, deadly poison, just the same as both types of interiors share common materials. To show how much smoke and gas is released, watch this short video carried of a test carried out in fire research establishment where they also burn new ICE and BEV cars and conduct tests on them to find out what are the hazards etc. There used to be a large British fire test lab in Borehamwood, Herts, I used to go a lot in my working years, it backed onto one of the film studios where some James Bond films were shot.

Very good, my elephant repellant is also working 😂😂

I wonder if the use of a gearbox would be a way of extending the range as the electric motor would be spinning slower?

Exactly my point, I can produce papers to show something, you can and have done before, produce papers that take the opposite view and this is why it is so difficult currently to actually tell fact from fiction and hence why I also say, do I not, that only time will be able to show us which was fact and which was not?

Indeed, and on some of the classic cars that have been converted to electric, they have also retained the original gearboxes, presumedly to maximise the range / pulling power from smaller batteries? As shown in this conversion.

If you chose to bury your head in the sand, that is up to you, all I'm attempting to do is for those that are interested, is show that I believe that this policy of banning the sale of new ICE cars before the known issues with electric options are fully resolved is a dangerous pathway to take. Yes, I understand that these problems will, in the fullness of time, be solved, again this is something that I have indicated before, but we are not there yet.

@lol-lol you shouldn't have ever been able to smell gases from your batteries, under normal use. If you had watched some of the videos I have posted before you'd have known that much at least. It is only when they are in thermal runaway that they produce gas and the gas builds up under pressure within the battery casing. This pressure then manages to break the seals around the sides of that case and escapes. The friction created adds extra heat into the gas which then self ignites (petrol and diesel do not self ignite, they require external ignition sources), and produces the blow torch jets of fire emitted low down around doorsill level and can be a metre or 2 long, hence why charging bays are marked out very wide, extra fire gap. In the case of EV batteries, the BMS systems are located in the battery casing beneath the car so again, you don't know if they are getting hot or not. Like you and all of us, I have many Li-ion batteries myself in various power tools etc and never had any issues. The lead acid battery is not a major problem, yes the gas when charging is explosive (hydrogen) but these days the batteries are sealed and because most are of the SS type gel replaces the acid, are not a problem, when did you last have to top the levels in your battery with distilled water? The problem with EV batteries is that they contain 100s of times greater energy than even the largest 24v batteries fitted to trucks. Not only that, but they can deliver that energy over a sustained period of time, lead acid cannot. By the time you smell gases given off by a EV battery, it is already too late, the battery is in runaway mode and can burst into fire in a split second. The higher the voltage of a battery, the greater risk there is. Like, there is a higher risk of a leak with a high pressure hydraulic pipe then an unpressurised pipe. You need to understand that voltage is the pressure that forces the electrons to move, hence a flat battery has next to or zero volts, so unable to power anything. Tesla went to 48V in order to reduce the size of the cable thickness and hence use less copper, thus lower the weight as well. I also suspect that the change to 48V was also because there is so much cable required in an EV that physical space was also a major problem as there are so many other things to accommodate like battery cooling systems, pipes etc. EVs are not less complicated than ICE, just a different type of complexity.

What a flippant reply, it is not my fire department, or yours, or anybodies, it is fire departments anywhere around the world and fire research establishments that have not found a way to bring battery fires under control like a ICE fire. Do you seriously for a single moment believe all fire departments in the entire world are anti EV? 🙄

I never said that they were insurmountable, but currently there is NOT a viable solution if the battery does go into thermal runaway, all they do now is allow it to burn itself out, then tackle the remaining fire. Meanwhile, releasing the following gases, some of which are fatal if inhaled or come into contact with skin. The source for evidence is here Review of gas emissions from lithium-ion battery thermal runaway failure — Considering toxic and flammable compounds - ScienceDirect Oh and also for the record this report also states that LFP is even more toxic in the event of a thermal runaway then NMC batteries, this is an extract from the Conclusion in the linked to documentation "While NMC batteries release more gas than LFP, LFP batteries are significantly more toxic than NMC ones in absolute terms." Table 2. Common LIB off-gas components, hazards and exposure limits. Substance Hazarda Exposure Limit, 8 h (mg/m3 )b Exposure Limit, 15 min (mg/m3 )b Carbon dioxide, Cause headaches, dizziness, confusion, loss of consciousness, and asphyxiation at high concentrations [52]. 9150 27 400 Carbon monoxide, CO Toxic if inhaled, may damage the unborn child, causes damage to organs through prolonged or repeated exposure and is an extremely flammable gas. 23 117 Hydrogen, H Extremely flammable. See noted Hydrocarbons Flammable. See noted Hydrogen fluoride, HF Fatal if swallowed, is fatal in contact with skin, is fatal if inhaled and causes severe skin burns and eye damage. 1.5 2.5 Hydrogen chloride, HCl Severe skin burns and eye damage, is toxic if inhaled, may damage fertility or the unborn child, causes serious eye damage, may cause damage to organs through prolonged or repeated exposure, may be corrosive to metals, may cause respiratory irritation and contains gas under pressure and may explode if heated. 2 8 Hydrogen cyanide, HCN Fatal if swallowed, is fatal in contact with skin, is fatal if inhaled, causes damage to organs through prolonged or repeated exposure, is very toxic to aquatic life (with long lasting effects) and is an extremely flammable liquid and vapour. 1 5 Nitrogen dioxide, NO Fatal if inhaled, causes severe skin burns and eye damage; and may cause or intensify fire (oxidiser). 0.96 1.91 Sulphur dioxide, SO Severe skin burns and eye damage and is toxic if inhaled. 1.3 2.7 Solvents Highly flammable liquid and vapour [53]. Very irritating to eyes, skin and airways [44]. DEC 700, PC 8.5c DEC 1000, PC 8.5c a Cited from the European Chemicals Agency [53], unless otherwise stated. b Cited from the HSE [47], unless otherwise stated. c Cited from the IFA [54] for the solvents DEC (Romania) and PC (Germany), other common electrolyte solvents (e.g. EC and DMC) are not listed. d Hydrocarbons, such as CH, are described as acting as simple asphyxiants without other significant physiologic effects when they are present in high concentrations, hence are not given limit values as the significant factor is the availability of oxygen [55]. This is assumed for H as well.

The ones that have got the fire authorities highly concerned, and that is not just restricted to fires, but the problems in tackling any fire with the available equipment and the hazards presented both in any fire and toxic hazards that they produce afterwards.

Deleted by me as I had crossed two things over, sorry

@skomaz Not ever having been to Greece, I can't on this, but while you were there, did you observe what the average house was like? For instance would many people be able to actually home charge as that could be one factor I expect that could explain why you saw so few EVs.

Yes, the private buyer can take advantage of the pre-registered cars with only delivery mileage on and save a packet, but that is only part of the storey, there is still the high cost of public charging and possibility of unreliable chargers and the ongoing depreciation to be factored in, so even those pre-registered cars might still in the long run be more expensive in real terms to the owner?

Oh come on now, surely that is precisely the message that they are already and have been sending to the politicians by pi55 poor adoption of BEV,s over the last few years and still today, ICE cars are selling the most, followed by hybrids and PHEVs. Are the politicians so thick that they cannot see the evidence for themselves? Now, my Kodiaq (nicking @lol-lol s phrase) wiesel 2L car which is averaging around 40mpg, then at ^.45 a gallon for that wiesel fuel, then 2000 miles would cost £322.50, saving a massive £148.50. What's more, I don't think that 0-60mph figure of around 9.3seconds is perfectly adequate, it keeps up with all the other traffic and sometimes have to lift my foot off the gas when following some BEVs who are clearly attempting to drive economically to max their range. Also, as you get older, it is a fact that your reaction times also slow down, so being exceptionally fast off the line can be dangerous then.

@classic That is pretty impressive, but at the same time, was also predictable as well. As long as you can charge at home, and complete all your journeys on the single home charge and your overnight charge provides sufficient power for the next day. A more compelling test would be one where you cannot do home charging, and you then have to rely solely on the public charging infrastructure, which, sadly, is the true situation for millions of car owners across the UK. I suspect, judging from reports that I have seen, the cost of doing so is higher, and is not going to endear itself to more potential EV owners. There may be lots of people out there who would love to sport their green badge of honour and say that they are doing their bit towards Net Zero and climate change, but simply cannot afford to do so. That financial burden is highly likely to increase substantially in the forth coming budget. If they can get the costs down to parity with an ICE or preferably significantly lower, then we might see a large uptake of EVs.

@lol-lol yes, you are correct, I remember that bombing and the opening scene was indeed shot there.

Or of course, do your own research instead of perpetuating the arguments, even if solid sources are given each time, some people will always endeavour to disprove things, when in reality, it's like I say, time will tell.

Amen to that.

It will get better, it has to if the electric car is to survive. At school, they tend to teach you more about things that are more local to you, you never learned about East Anglia did you? The same as we never learned about things local to you.