Replacement of Cam belts

[Clunkclick]

Did Vic Reeves just crack an unfunny ? I'm feeling like Clint's "Man-with-no-name" walking alone up the sage-brush strewn street.

I'll reply to myself then (State normal).

Doing a Google search it appears that ELSA is an on-line resource for VAG dealers (And motor technicians ?) for which they have to register and presumably validate their status.

So the revised service schedules are now beyond public view -some would say they are better protected than Government secrets - i.e. they are unlikely to be found in a car boot

And coupled with the fact that the service intervals stated in your vehicle handbook now appear to be changed undermining, to an extent, the basis of any comparisons you made at the time you purchased your vehicle. I wonder what Fair Trading and the Competition Authority would make of that ?

I would imagine those on lease-purchase schemes must have been advised and issued with revised contracts ? I

Are Skoda alone, or is this being done across the motor industry ?

Roll-on the day when a maunfacturer provides a lifetime service package, to all customers (Not just some LP wallahs) at the time of vehicle purchase, priced at the time of purchase and paid for in equal installments over the life of the vehicle. At least it would take away the bad taste arising from the feeling that service schedules are being adjusted to fit the economic cycle.

Anyone ?

Nick

Edited 20 February, 2009 by Clunkclick

[moley]

Car makers used to issue 'bulletins' for changes to service schedules usually because they found unforeseen problems after a period of time or mileage. I don't think VAG are hiding anything from you by using ELSA. The fact is that they are advising the cam belt should be changed at 4 years, you don't have to take their advise, the choice is yours.

Now look at the cambelt issue from a different point of view. You look at buying a 5 year old Fabia with 40k on the clock and still the original belt on it. Would you ask the seller to fit a new belt before buying it or try to reduce the price to allow for a new belt or drive it until 60k and then fit a new belt?

[Clunkclick]

Car makers used to issue 'bulletins' for changes to service schedules usually because they found unforeseen problems after a period of time or mileage. I don't think VAG are hiding anything from you by using ELSA. The fact is that they are advising the cam belt should be changed at 4 years, you don't have to take their advise, the choice is yours.

Now look at the cambelt issue from a different point of view. You look at buying a 5 year old Fabia with 40k on the clock and still the original belt on it. Would you ask the seller to fit a new belt before buying it or try to reduce the price to allow for a new belt or drive it until 60k and then fit a new belt?

Your statement says it all about the (Unreformed) motor trade.

I presume that you would fully expect dealers, who would have prior knowledge of the problem, to sell on a second hand car unmodified unless the customer asked specifically about this problem. That's really caveat emptor. I don't think , from a Customer Services point of view that the majority of people will put up with that sort of behaviour nowadays - if they know about it.

And that's exactly what's happening with this cambelt issue.

I expect to be able to go into a showroom and have the confidence, without asking, to know that all the vehicles on display had been fully serviced, modified, to comply with the latest manufacturers guidlines and statutory requirements.

Now that would be Customer service.

The usual stated service interval for cam belts across the industry is at 100,000 and has been for years. All the service information available to me still states that the interval is 60,000 for first inspection, followed by inspection every 20,000 and compulsory renewal at 120,000. This is what was stated in the Official vehicle handbook I received when I made my purchase and what I (And Skoda UK) legally bound ourselves to when I purchased the car. This to contractually benefit from whatever warranties as to manufacture that Skoda were offering at that time.

If Skoda or VAG subsequently become aware that a significant number of the belts fitted cannot survive for this long as a result of a defect in design or manufacture or a reduction in the manfacturing specification, , then I would say they have a duty to inform all, not just the servicing community, that this problem exists and should do so at the same time and by OFFICIAL means . At the moment knowledge about this problem is being allowed to disseminate in an irregular fashion through web sites like this, word of mouth and, if the dealership I use is anything to go by, on Customer Service documents left on the service desk for customers to casually view - together with a few bent valves for added effect.

Also, if the problem is sufficiently widespread enough to warrant Skoda Customer Service advocating substantially early replacement on all vehicles of the type then ,I would suggest, a recall would be required under HM Government legislation (Construction and use and type approval regulations).

To my knowledge a recall hasn't been made on this issue.

So come-on Skoda UK, if this is a real problem, stop pushing it back onto the customer. Lets have some real customer service and bite the bullet. Issue formal written advice to all affected customers that the cam belt service interval has changed and offer to meet, if only in part,the cost of the work required.

If not. withdraw the "Bent valve" campaign thats currently being cleverly pushed through dealerships and web sites like this, otherwise people will start thinking that your'e extracting dosh on false pretences and we all know where that left the English cricket Board.

Nick

[Kandy]

We have to trust that the revised changed schedules are down to statistical evaluation of the pattern of failures.

However, I agree there must be a temptation to create more revenue from servicing.

I have to say that just about every car with a cambelt I have ever owned has had the cambelt change interval downgraded from that stated at the model's launch - mostly vauxhalls.

It is an interesting point though, that the increased servicing costs might be recoverable through the small claims court from Skoda or the selling dealer in some cases - if you consider that the stated service interval is a part of the conditions/contract of sale, and it was subsequently reduced increasing your costs...... needs someone to try a test case I suppose.

[Clunkclick]

We have to trust that the revised changed schedules are down to statistical evaluation of the pattern of failures. .

"In God we trust . . " all others cash.

needs someone to try a test case I suppose.

Small Claims court, joined action (Class), no win no fee ?

Anybody ?

Nick

Edited 26 February, 2009 by DGW
Quote fixed

[Kandy]

I think you would only stand a chance if you are the 1st owner and you bought direct from a Skoda dealer. Still a long shot.

[Clunkclick]

I am and have full continuity of main dealer service history.

Read it and weep

But anyway, this ain't a usuage or treatment issue. We are led to beleive its an admitted (design/manufacture) problem discovered since the vehicle has been sold.

And of course, there is the negligence issue, in the fragmented and ineffective way that users and owners have and are being informed about it. By chance some owners are being "Given the choice", whilst others are blissfully unaware - don't recall Margaret Hilda advocating part-time and casual "Choice" (Market) economics.

Nick

Edited 21 February, 2009 by Clunkclick

[Kandy]

Hmmmmm....

Skoda supplied you with a car, the service schedule prevailing at that time is a reflection of the quality of the goods supplied and thus part of the conditions/contract of sale, the car was not of that quality - therefore requiring extra servicing and cost.

If you have to replace the cambelt twice as often as expected, then it makes sense Skoda should meet that extra cost.

Why don't you try a claim through the small claims court - costs very little as a punt, and you can set it in motion from your computer now!

Of course if somewhere in the small print it says Skoda reserve the right to update the servicing requirements as they see fit (I bet it does) then you don't have a leg....

[Clunkclick]

You won't convince me.

Before passing judgement, lets see the revised service schedule with the letter headed paper - I bet it hasn't been, revised that is.

When I went into the dealers I did get an awfully strong impression they were all well primed and rehearsed with the right answers like actors in a repretory - including the bent valve props on the service counter.

IMO belt replacement was being sold to me. It definitely wasn't a matter of compliance with the service schedule. If it is a compliance issue you make sure everybody's notified at approximately the same time.

Nick

[Clunkclick]

Paid me 3 Euros for a hours' worth of viewing only on ERWIN and tried to find the service interval information, but couldn't find anything relevant. No mileage or age limits. Did find a list of the criteria which they recommeded to use when evaluating the condition of the belt -more a statement of the bl**ding obvious really, but here it is:-

1. Delamination of the belt - elevation view (i.e. when viewed from the side).

2. Cracks, starting from the edge and spreading inwards - plan view (i.e. from

above).

3. Chunking of the edge and longditundanl splits - plan view.

4. Wear on the teeth - internal and elevation view.

They don't give any indication of what's acceptable and what's not in terms of extent or type of damage.

https://erwin.skoda-auto.cz/erwin/showHome.do

Answering my own earlier question, I think that ERWIN is good for obtaining the procedures for doing anything and is more detailed than the Haynes manual - Exploded diagrams are better, and ELSA is just the official VAG parts list and exploded diagrams

Perhaps what is needed is a couple of polls

One showing the mileage, by age of car and type (Petrol or Diesel) , at which the vehicle handbook recommends a belt change.

The other showing by mileage, by age of car and type , at which ownwers have actually had the belts changed.

Nick

Edited 22 February, 2009 by Clunkclick

[moley]

Bent valves on the service desk? I would hazzard a guess that you've been to Willis Motor Co in South Ruislip. If it Willis, then I've been using them for a couple of years and I've always had good service there. Any problems I've had Peter the service manager has always sorted out and he doesn't come over as the type of person to give you a lot of 'flannel'.

[ChrisjMetcher]

Ive recently purchased a Fabia Mk 1 1.4 16v . 108,000 miles with no mention at all in the patchy service history of a cambelt change.

Its gone away today to have the belt changed along with the water pump (false economy not changing that at same time) and rear shocks.

If I keep it for a few years, I think i,ll get it changed at 36k intervals like the good old days. i tend to err on the side of caution .

Incidentally, can anyone advise if this engine is a single or twin cam unit?