Hi,

Not sure which topic it would be under so I suppose this will be ok!

So I know F1 does a large of simulation testing and little real testing before races. Does any other racing disciplines/classes do the same? How far have they push this boundary of simulation vs real life tuning?

I know some simulations like Race 7 or GTR evolution iirc are very big on simulation tuning and racing, but can you apply the same knowledge from racing games/simulation into real life?

E.g. Lewis Hamilton's brother does this simulation racing thing as a job? or a hobby? If its a job, then could he use his skills in that to go into real racing or become a real technician/race engineer with a little conversion course?

I suppose my question boils down to is - have people mathematically mapped race components for simulations in games? Or do they bodge it together somehow going with the 'Feel of the user' and not actually getting a real understanding of each component?

What about the more 'commercial simulation' games like GT5, Forza 4 and F1? The styles are very different to each other so I assume that the games itself are more tailored to their way of thinking rather than real life.

Maybe this should be moved to Roadside Hotel! haha.

In proper simulations, you could say yes.

I believe the F1 guys, use a industrial version of rFactor.

So could one use rFactor (thats the name i was thinking of!) to say tune a real BTCC car? Or rather, have people made mathematical simulations of components for parts in a BTCC car or other real racing disciplines? assuming components they use are off the shelf race components?

I remember reading an article way back about certain motorsport teams using Forza 3 for testing as all the data was "so close real results". Took it with a pinch of salt and disregarded it as sales banter though.

Theres is however similar story in evo magazine this month about Simfree Raceway.

Apparently it is "the most realistic simulation available" is constantly developed and has Alan McNeish & Dario Franchetti on it's constant development team.

The makers created a virtual version of some brand new American track only car and the journo did a few laps to set a time in the morning, spent a couple of hours lapping on the game, and then went lopped seconds off his time when back in the real car.

Have a look at this Forza 4 "making of" video to show the levels of detaisl they go to to get the data right

I thought Lewis' brother did race? I'm sure he was in a clio th? other weekend

yeah he does.

races in the Clio cup that supports the BTCC

Oic, never knew that.

Forza link was pretty interesting, never knew they put that much effort in it, feels little.. easy? Compared to gt5..

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I can't see how a pad, would even come close.

Well I know it can't, I'm much better on a wheel on GT5 than on the pad, it's the brake and throttle that does it, steering not so much, but then the pad is kind of like auto steer on GT5

I have the G25 for GT5 and F1, but it doesn't connect to 360 so only played forza on controller. Forza is fun but doesn't feel quite right somehow, it has all the motions but it seems very easy to keep it on the limit for most cars. Whereas GT5 I find I got to really learn each car to get the most out of it (which is a pain but I assume that more realistic). F1 is just stressful lol, I do one 1/2 length weekend and im done for the month

Just looking at SimRaceway, it looks very interesting..

I've done F1 on the PC and Race 07, and a little Iracing, tbh I'm not a fan of Iracing as I don't like interior view.

You're right its physical abuse playing for a sustained time though, I did three hours on GT5 the other night and felt drained afterwards, and yes you do have to learn the cars on GT

I'd check your settings on Forza as you've probably got the handling mode set to easy rather than advanced.

Even after that though there are in built asists on when using the controller maknig it much much easier than with the wheel.

Its a massive culture shock for me to now go back to using my MS wheel from the pad.

+1 on Iracing, really didnt like interior, though I have to give credits to forza 4, best interior i've seen to date lol.

On forza 4 the only thing I have on is stability. All other settings are either off or simulation (manual and clutch). maybe I'll give everything off a go.. I seem to remember trying it on gt5 and I didn't like it when it came to MR cars with 300+bhp..

It's not the driving assists (STM/TC/ABS) there are actually 2 handling modes to choose from which affect the actual driving physics

Taken from an interview with Forza's creative director

What can you tell us about Forza 4’s new physics?

My favorite subject. There have been several key changes to the physics and handling of FM4. The four primary areas of change to the physics model itself are in the tires, steering suspension, and track bumpiness. Let’s get into the details.

Tires:

In Forza, we’ve always focused on our tire simulation. As a result, we’ve struck up multiple partnerships over the years to get tire data. In the past, we’ve worked with Goodyear, Toyo, and Michelin. We also used reference data from the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE). In past Forza Motorsport games, we even featured tire carcass flex, tire surface heat, as well as tire gas heat and expansion. However, the model was based on a combination of data from all of our previous partnerships. And we had to do fix-up on the data to make all of the different data formatting play nicely together.

For Forza 4, we took an entirely new approach to our tire simulation. This time, we threw all of the old data away and asked Pirelli to provide us with all-new data for everything. Pirelli did custom tests on a huge variety of tires to cover all of our cases—including tire width and height, compound, inflation pressure, heat, wear, sidewall height, load, angle, etc. We then changed our system to accept the real-world data directly and without any fix-up from us at all. This means that the tires in Forza 4 behave exactly as the Pirelli test tires did, even in complex situations where multiple parameters are changing rapidly.

Just looking at graphs of the Pirelli data versus our Forza 3 data, there are several obvious differences. Unfortunately, I’m not permitted to expound on the data differences. As part of getting this level of access and partnership from Pirelli, we have to keep their data completely under wraps. From a gameplay perspective, these changes are most noticeable as you move load from tire to tire. There is a lot more nuance in the model than ever before.

Steering:

For Forza 4, we changed the steering model in three major ways. First, we spent time watching how quickly real-world drivers (both pros and amateurs) tend to rotate the steering wheel as they turn-in, correct, and countersteer. This led to a change in the steering rate for Forza 4. We haven’t found that this change is really noticeable, but we know it’s more accurate—especially when coupled with our second change.

Second, we reevaluated our max steering angles and the system that creates them per car. We were able to use our researched curb-to-curb turning radius in combination with our new tire data (per compound peak slip angle) and other researched parameters, such as track width and wheelbase to reverse engineer each car’s max steering angle. We already had this data researched for some cars, but not for all of them. So we filled in the research gaps. In Forza 4, lock-to-lock steering is far more accurate for every car in the game.

Finally, we added the “simulation steering” option. This option removes all of the controller aides. There were very few of these aides on the wheel controller, but there were several on the console controller. With these aides removed, you will no longer get help finding the right counter-steering angle. If you over-countersteer (meaning you overcorrect by steering into the angle of the slide), the wheels do as commanded. This usually results in a wicked tank-slapper. Also, initial turn-in is direct and linear. This can feel very twitchy. When you command the game to go lock to lock-to-lock, it assumes you mean it and lets you live with the consequences.

Suspension:

There were a couple of suspension architecture types that we felt could use better research. Specifically, we wanted to rethink our implementation for solid-axle rear ends (again). Once we started looking at the system, we decided to reevaluate our MacPherson, double-wishbone and push-rod implementation as well. We had the overall simulation correct, but we found a better way of researching and simulating the per car differences within these systems. From a high level, this change is most noticeable on the classic and low-end cars. They feel more “boaty.” It’s not necessarily less spring and damping stiffness (though in some cases, it’s that too). It’s how the tire moves in relation to the body and the road. When combined with the new tires and steering, all cars have an entirely new feel in Forza.

Track Bumpiness:

The “feel” of Forza 4 is also different for two additional reasons: track surface bumpiness and dynamic camera animation. In past versions, we’ve optimized our track surface anomalies based purely on researched data and firsthand accounts from professional race drivers. As you know, we take great lengths to capture track as accurately as possible. What we capture, we recreated to the last detail. And, then we bring in pro drivers to further refine each track. When Gunnar Jeannette or Stéphane Sarrazin or other visiting drivers tell us there are bumps or chatters, we add them.

For this version, we added a new pass for all tracks. We evaluated the general age and quality of the track surface for each track and then added bumps around the entire track surface according to our evaluation. Different tracks and different driving surfaces around the track got different levels of bumpiness. However, these are tuned to be realistic bumps and cracks (this means subtle). While they are big enough to affect friction and upset the car, we found that most of the bumps and cracks we added were being absorbed by the suspension and tires before appearing noticeably in the car’s body and driver’s view.

In order to make bumps more perceptible, some games make them unrealistically big. However, this simply isn’t accurate and therefore we opted against it. Rather than taking those liberties, we changed our camera system to boost up the perception of the surface bumpiness. We trigger camera animation based on several new layers in Forza 4. We now have layers for accentuating bumps and cracks in the camera, based on the car physics. We even have new layers for heightening the perception of wind buffeting at high speeds. Combined, the tracks are noticeably more bumpy and engaging.

Also maybe check out this thread on the Forza forum. It's drift based but the answers about the handling modes still apply.

or this thread or this one

Nice, I'll give that a read in a bit (slow reader) but everything is on simulation, I get 145% additional earning (suggested braking line on as I don't know the tracks). Steering, damage, fuel and tyre wear are all simulation.

The only problem I have with GT5 is making the driving as realistic as possible. I don't know whether to use TCS and ABS or not, depending on what I'm driving. So I can never really get it realistic. Anyone got any suggestions to where I can find the right settings?

At least when I play F1 I know that I don't get any assists!

Difference between GT5 on controller and wheel is massive. All assists off in a Lexus LFA with controller I could hold slides easy. On the wheel it was more of a fight and took me ages to get used to it. Wouldn't go back now. As for F1 it is exhausting. The lock on the wheel adapts to an F1 car but it's still brutal

ON GT5

ABS 1 ....thats it !!

Sometimes TC on 1-2 if I'm just ripping around in a monster (LMP class or such)

The only problem I have with GT5 is making the driving as realistic as possible. I don't know whether to use TCS and ABS or not, depending on what I'm driving. So I can never really get it realistic. Anyone got any suggestions to where I can find the right settings?

At least when I play F1 I know that I don't get any assists!

Depends what your playing it on GT5, I found steering speed is very slow on the controller but is better on g25 (steering wheel) perhaps if you up the sensitivity on the pad it may help? Im not sure, I bought the wheel just for GT5 *cough* sad *cough* . I set everything off (generally) and simulation again except for STC.

Sometimes TC on 1-2 if I'm just ripping around in a monster (LMP class or such)

+1, though i find having it any above that it kicks in too early and speed drops.

F1 is great in a sense it really pushes your patience level, on low TC you gotta just wait..wait...waittttt.... and squeeze the power in gradually otherwise the laptime/race is gone. But playing 1hr on that and not getting anywhere is very stressful .

Im by no means fast (I don't think?) but just enjoy the challenge of surviving lol. Maybe we should compare some times online...

Depends what your playing it on GT5, I found steering speed is very slow on the controller but is better on g25 (steering wheel) perhaps if you up the sensitivity on the pad it may help? Im not sure, I bought the wheel just for GT5 *cough* sad *cough* . I set everything off and simulation again except for STC.

Im by no means fast (I don't think?) but just enjoy the challenge of surviving lol. Maybe we should compare some times online...

+ 1 on both lol

I had the wheel a good two years waiting for GT5, I don't even bother playing on the dualshock now as I'm useless.

Yes comparing would be cool, theres a thread in the tech shed with our usernames on it, add your names and we'll sort something out, after 9PM is always best for me

Challenge accepted haha. Im bashing on forza 4 currently and its not really lighting any fires lol. Completely stock gift cars I can get 1st after learning the track a little, add LSD/Springs or struts and it becomes an easy win even if I've never played the track before lol, whats funny is LSD does not increase performance points... how does that work? :p On higher spec cars they give you brake balance..!

So i've got entering corners at slight oversteer, check, mid corner slight oversteer or understeer controlled (depending on drive of car) from Springs/Strut or if your poor adjust tyre pressures, check. Exit slight oversteer from LSD.

Sorry im moaning about forza now..

Im bashing on forza 4 currently and its not really lighting any fires lol.

Join the Briskoda car club on Forza (BRSK short code) and it'll add loads of members on there for Rival lappery and mulitiplayer shenanigans

360's my bro's and he doesn't have live :( I can post some laptimes of certain class cars on the forums though, I have an awesome 4wd Class B aygo.......

I never though you could fit the LT6 engine from a Corvette into a Daewoo Kalos, but I think Forza lets you do that. So I don't think it is realistic in this case, as the engine bay could not actually fit that monster engine.

Another thing, I remember GT5's guide shows drifting should have -ve camber on front wheels and positive camber on the rear. Never seen a car like that in my life. -ve camber - yes, but not to the extent of what you can do on GT5.

I never though you could fit the LT6 engine from a Corvette into a Daewoo Kalos, but I think Forza lets you do that. So I don't think it is realistic in this case, as the engine bay could not actually fit that monster engine.

Another thing, I remember GT5's guide shows drifting should have -ve camber on front wheels and positive camber on the rear. Never seen a car like that in my life. -ve camber - yes, but not to the extent of what you can do on GT5.

Seen a couple drifters running mega (seriously huge angles) opposite camber front and back, can't remember which way around it was though.