It would be fantastic if from now to 2030 or 2035 the ICE vehicles become better built and have greater longevity.

Not sure that the new compulsory equipment and software are going to mean they are though.

 

There are 2 Threads started today on new Skodas and no dipstick.

No big deal as many manufacturers / engines have been that way for decades.

 

But this is VW Engines in Skodas so lets see when the 'I have a low oil warning and i have only done 5,000 miles'  posts start.

 

It will be good if the new owners check the Screen and find the Oil level and top up before any Low Oil warnings.

I will be interested to see when the First 'Top up oil messages' pop up on the 1.5 TSI PHEV,s and the other engines & how much oil needs added and if people can do as is required and not overfill.

12 hours ago, Paws4Thot said:

@domhnall @Dieselgate - I've had to do a significant diversion as described literally once in 40 years, when I didn't fill up before leaving, and came off route into an area that was suffering a power cut so had to drive more off route miles than anticipated to reach fuel pumps with electric power. Dom, do you see the common factor between filling ICE and Scalextric cars here?

I didnt describe a significant diversion, the Shell station in Livingston is closed for rebuild, it's expensive anyway, I didn't pass any other filling stations before Costco Edinburgh which is just off the bypass. Hardly significant, it was just the first PFS I passed. But still it took 24 minutes extra on my journey to fill up. Lucky you being able to fill up before you leave home. I don't have diesel stored at home so it's not an option. Scalextric cars can't travel more than 1cm from electricity though so are of limited use. They're also too small to transport humans. 

13 hours ago, Dieselgate said:

Yes he's very aware of pre-conditioning the battery and the optimal state of battery to charge etc😉 Sometimes you can't always be too choosy about how much battery you have left when you get to a charger though and in this case it had more to do with the charger than the car.

Your analogy about filling a jug with water isn't the best tbh as if you compare it to filling a car with petrol which is more what we are talking about, the pump fills it at pretty much the same rate until it cuts out which is pretty instantaneous (or if you stop yourself before the tank is full).

As Graham says, I do find it odd that you had to do such a large diversion to fill up, I've never done such a diversion in my life to date.

The 'filling up while you sleep' is a compelling point but in my opinion doesn't have a lot of substance to it. Whilst many say that you leave every day with a 'full tank' I would argue that this is far from the truth. My Superb (mostly used for motorway cruising) does 750-850 miles between fills and even the best EVs will not do more than around 250 miles at highway speeds (less in winter) so I think it's truer to say that with an EV you start every day with 1/4 - 1/3 of a tank which doesn't quite have the same appeal.

Plus you have the faff of plugging in and unplugging every day as well.

I guess I will have to get an EV one day but I really hope the technology improves very quickly as for me what is currently available just doesn't cut it and that is the main reason why I really resent the way the government are effectively forcing us into it. Just let people make the move when they decide it works for them.

Tell me you have never driven an EV without telling me you've never driven an EV. OK your friend didn't bither to pre heat the battery, that's fine but you presented that fact as though it meant EVS are all flawed because your friend didn't do what he needed to. It's a bit like me complaining the fossil cars are all hopeless because I tried to drive to London wfrom Edinburgh with only a litre of petrol in the tank. You would rightly say that wasn't the fault of the technology but operator error. 

1) the analogy about fillign a jug is perfect. It's got nothing to do with filling a fossil car. It's about how batteries, all batteries, charge up. It's not a car thing, it's true of all batteries if you fast charge them. 

2) I did not describe a significant diversion. I described leaving the Edinburgh City bypass to get to the first PFS I passed, filling up with diesel and then rejoinign the bypass. It added 22 minutes to my journey, which is comparable with a charge back to 90% when I stop at Carlisle when heading South. See pic below for my "significant diversion". If you've nnever driven this far for dino juice I would be amazed. 

3) Why does charging while you sleep have no substance? Puzzled by this one. Lots of us do it. In addition of course when I plug in my electricity price for the whole house drops from 22p to 7p, which makes it cheaper to heat the house, run the tumble drier etc etc. Put it this way in December and January (the 2 coldest month) my total energy bill for the house and car was no more than £130 per month. My diesel van cannot do that. In fact it costs £100 to fill it up and then it does naff all for my home energy bill. 

4) You may be able to drive 750 to 850 miles between stops but I simply cannot. I follow the Army's rules on driver's hours so stop every two hours for 15 minutes. Not because it's a rule but because I / passengers usually need to eat/pee or take a quick fresh air break. The stops I take are the same whether I am in the EV or the diesel. But the EV refills while we stop, the diesel simply doesn't do that, rather inconveniently.  While I can only manage to drive for a couple of hours, the car would happily drive for 340 miles which on my usual route (Livingston to Milton Keynes) is about 5 and a half hours. 

5) the faff of plugging in is actually slighlty less than say locking the car up. You open a flap, lift the plug and put it in. Takes about 5 seconds. It takes me longer to work out which pocket my keys are in and open the front door. 

 

11 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes, I have done that many times in the past in order to get back home for instance after a being away up in the lake district on business for a few days. I did it in order to see my kids and wife before they went to bed. Also it's not just the distance you travel, but the speed and it is well known that motorway speeds around the limit, kill electric cars range. I could have driven my bubble car on long distance trips but need breaks etc as it would not have been in its element, but my current car is designed to be a mile muncher. The other thing that both dieselgate and I enjoy is that we can drive upto approx 400 miles away and back again without filling up. Some places you have to go to, do not have the ability to charge while you do whatever you went there for, meaning that not only do you have to factor in time on outward leg to charge to make sure you get there, but you also have to do  the same on the return leg. 

I drive Livingston to Milton Keynes, 375 miles. I set off at 7am and get there around 2pm. There is no way on God's green earth you two could do that without a toilet break even if you could do it without having lunch or a leg stretch to help deal with fatigue. 

8 minutes ago, domhnall said:

I drive Livingston to Milton Keynes, 375 miles. I set off at 7am and get there around 2pm. There is no way on God's green earth you two could do that without a toilet break even if you could do it without having lunch or a leg stretch to help deal with fatigue. 

 

 

I've done several trips from London to Manchester on a Friday evening which have taken 6-8 hours and I do this without having a break. I feel fine and would stop if I felt tired, but sitting in stationary traffic isn't a problem (or tiring) for me and I don't need a wee every couple of hours. If I did feel tired, I could always stop at a service station for a wee nap.

Edited 3 October, 20241 yr by Lady Elanore

9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

I did say tend to be, obviously the national grid transmission lines will run across some major roads and be fairly close to others, so there will always be the odd few will not require deviation away from the main road and your route.

If you have a look at this you will see most, if not all, of these are on main routes. 

 

even if you strip it back to only the very fastest chargers you'll see they'r eon main routes rather thanin the back of beyond

4 minutes ago, Lady Elanore said:

 

 

I've done several trips from London to Manchester on a Friday evening which have taken 6-8 hours and I do this without having a break. I feel fine and would stop if I felt tired, but sitting in stationary traffic isn't a problem (or tiring) for me and I don't need a wee every couple of hours. If I did feel tired, I could always stop at a service station for a wee nap.

I'm often driving under employer rules that require us to follow the Highway Code limits.  Fair play to you being able to go 8 hours between toilet stops and feeling no fatigue whatsoever but I am not superhuman , plus like I say I have legal constraints. All logged by app on my phone by work. 

Edited 3 October, 20241 yr by domhnall

6 minutes ago, Lady Elanore said:

 

 

I've done several trips from London to Manchester on a Friday evening which have taken 6-8 hours and I do this without having a break. I feel fine and would stop if I felt tired, but sitting in stationary traffic isn't a problem (or tiring) for me and I don't need a wee every couple of hours. If I did feel tired, I could always stop at a service station for a wee nap.

why do you think we make professional drivers follow these rules?  (It's not because they drive different vehicles, it's because it is not safe to push the boudaries)

 

You must take breaks from driving during each working day. The number and length of breaks you need to take depend on how long you work for in a day.

If you work for less than 8 hours and 30 minutes, you must take a break after 5 hours and 30 minutes of continuous driving. The break must last for 30 minutes or more.

If you work for at least 8 hours and 30 minutes, you must not drive for more than 7 hours and 45 minutes during this time. You must also take breaks that add up to at least 45 minutes.

If you work for longer than 8 hours and 30 minutes, you must take an extra break of at least 30 minutes, in addition to the 45 minutes.

You must take the extra break at some point between working for 8 hours and 30 minutes and the end of your shift. You must not take the extra break immediately before finishing your shift.

or as the RAC puts it

 

While drivers are not bound by it outside the UK, Rule 91 of the Code states that a break of at least 15 minutes should be taken every two hours – with regular breaks essential in keeping a driver focused, alert and, above all, safe on the road.

 

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/rac-research-reveals-safety-risk-how-long-do-you-drive-without-stopping/

 

 

22 minutes ago, domhnall said:

why do you think we make professional drivers follow these rules?  (It's not because they drive different vehicles, it's because it is not safe to push the boudaries)

 

You must take breaks from driving during each working day. The number and length of breaks you need to take depend on how long you work for in a day.

If you work for less than 8 hours and 30 minutes, you must take a break after 5 hours and 30 minutes of continuous driving. The break must last for 30 minutes or more.

If you work for at least 8 hours and 30 minutes, you must not drive for more than 7 hours and 45 minutes during this time. You must also take breaks that add up to at least 45 minutes.

If you work for longer than 8 hours and 30 minutes, you must take an extra break of at least 30 minutes, in addition to the 45 minutes.

You must take the extra break at some point between working for 8 hours and 30 minutes and the end of your shift. You must not take the extra break immediately before finishing your shift.

or as the RAC puts it

 

While drivers are not bound by it outside the UK, Rule 91 of the Code states that a break of at least 15 minutes should be taken every two hours – with regular breaks essential in keeping a driver focused, alert and, above all, safe on the road.

 

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/rac-research-reveals-safety-risk-how-long-do-you-drive-without-stopping/

 

Actually that is not law, for the real facts, read these Drivers' hours: GB domestic rules - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) and yes, there are rules and they are law if you are lorry driver, or Public Service Vehicle (bus/coach) driver etc, and they must be followed, and they are backed up by drivers log books and or a Tachograph. I have been a lorry driver and have covered the British Isles top to bottom, including both parts of Ireland. I have been pulled over by police and MOT inspectors and also told to drive to a test centre where not only details and driving logs/tacho charts are all up-to-date and correct but have had the lorry thoroughly checked and weighed etc to see if it was road legal and not overloaded etc. Every time, every thing was perfect, so I've had plenty of experience.

 

When reading the legal requirements that HM Government have enshrined in law, check out the e section labelled Exemptions to all GB domestic rules and you will see that private drivers, which I am are totally exempt from the regulations.

 

Edited 3 October, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

1 hour ago, domhnall said:

If you have a look at this you will see most, if not all, of these are on main routes. 

 

even if you strip it back to only the very fastest chargers you'll see they'r eon main routes rather thanin the back of beyond

Erm, no, I can't see that these are located on the main roads at all. On the scale presented here they could be a few miles away from the main roads and even further than your 22 minute diversion off the Edinburgh bypass to go to Costco to grab some Dino juice, and back to the bypass again. As I said earlier, unless your tank was exceptionally low (if it was, then that is bad planning, bad thing to allow a tank to sit with a minimum amount of fuel in, allows the tank to sweat and water droplets to enter the fuel system and misfiring, bad news for a diesel). I'm positive that with in a few miles there would have been a PFS located on the road you were driving on and then you would not have suffered that added delay, which was probably caused by problems on the road to or from Costco, actually filling does only take minutes including paying, (I used to work in the garage of a National Bus company and have had to assist in the refuelling of buses as they come back at night, so they go out with a full tank in the morning and they had 100 gallon tanks and they only took 5 to 6 minutes to fill).

 

Then these are not main hubs but locations where you could grab a charge if a charger was free, and that charger may only number 1 to maybe 6 or 7 at many of these locations and many might be just Type 2 (22KW max) and possibly a few Chademo or CCS of upto 90Kw. and because if there are many cars there all pulling a charge, it is more than likely not going to have sufficient incoming capacity to allow each charger to deliver its maximum output, regardless of the state of the battery level or if the driver had pre-conditioned it before plugging it in.

 

As I explained before the Braintree hub is a few miles away from the main trunk route A120 and is right slap bang next to large substation and that hub has 13 High power DC CCS 360Kw, 12 medium power 90Kw CCS / Chademo and 6 low power 22Kw chargers. They will and do demand a high capacity supply and hence being sited adjacent to large substation and connected to the grid.

Edited 3 October, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

1 hour ago, domhnall said:

I drive Livingston to Milton Keynes, 375 miles. I set off at 7am and get there around 2pm. There is no way on God's green earth you two could do that without a toilet break even if you could do it without having lunch or a leg stretch to help deal with fatigue. 

Erm, yes I have done similar before, maybe not so much these days as I find do need a comfort breaks more these days as we all do as we get older, I remember ribbing my mum on the times she used to come out for the day, about how many times she needed a comfort break, now I'm beginning to understand better as I find I do as well.

9 hours ago, domhnall said:

OK your friend didn't bither to pre heat the battery, that's fine but you presented that fact as though it meant EVS are all flawed because your friend didn't do what he needed to.

I don't know if he did or not. My point was that chargers don't always deliver their rated output which I don't think anyone would dispute and that would certainly be an issue for me when out and about on the road. At the moment I don't ever have to worry about whether a petrol station will take longer than normal to fill my car up as they all pretty much operate at the same speed.

 

9 hours ago, domhnall said:

1) the analogy about fillign a jug is perfect. It's got nothing to do with filling a fossil car. It's about how batteries, all batteries, charge up. It's not a car thing, it's true of all batteries if you fast charge them. 

Yes I acknowledge that that's how the technology works. My point was that it's inferior to filling a car up with petrol as that happens at a constant speed until its full.

 

9 hours ago, domhnall said:

3) Why does charging while you sleep have no substance? Puzzled by this one. Lots of us do it.

I know it's common and makes sense to do it, I was just pointing out that it's not the same as starting every day with a full tank of fuel. It's more like starting every day with 1/4 - 1/3 of a tank of fuel.

 

 

One for @Graham Butcher.

D E P R E C I A T I O N.

The prospect of EU fines is forcing EV pre-registration and causing massive EV depreciation.

 

Edited 4 October, 20241 yr by EnterName
Removed EU to make George smile.

@Graham Butcher  These days are when you are doing the distances as we can not go back to the future of being younger and needing to pee less often. 

 

BBC 5 Live this morning, Wake Up to Money.   EV,s discussed again.  Some points were well made and some statements were just the same old that is repeated.

'Is EV Insurance really high now?' 

http://bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0023gq8

 

Edited 4 October, 20241 yr by Ootohere

@EnterNameIs it actually the EU that is getting the £15,000 per vehicle the manufacturer Register / Sell if they do not First Registering 22% of BEV,s in the UK?

Surely not now that the UK is not in the EU.

 

 

 

Edited 4 October, 20241 yr by Ootohere

6 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

@EnterNameIs it actually the EU that is getting the £15,000 per vehicle the Register / Sell from manufacturers not First Registering 22% of BEV,s in the UK?

Surely not now that the UK is not in the EU.

 

 

 

It's my understanding that if car manufacturers EV sales do not exceed a specific percentage, they will be fined.

Pre-registering counts as a sale, it seems, so they desperately pre-register to get the "sales" figures up.

 

@EnterName You posted it!

I asked if it is the EU getting the money as you seem to say in your post.  "The prospect of EU Fines."

 

We know all about the need to First Register the 22% in the UK. This thread alone has 287 pages. 

Is the not UK fines?

 

 

Edited 4 October, 20241 yr by Ootohere

11 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

I asked if it is the EU getting the money as you seem to say in your post.  "The prospect of EU Fines."

 

We know all about the need to First Register the 22% in the UK. This thread alone has 287 pages. 

Is the not UK fines?

I do not know. Why do you ask?

Just for you George, I've edited my original post. 😘

Edited 4 October, 20241 yr by EnterName

@EnterName You posted it.  So you do not know then?

I ask because there are too often daft things posted that people seem to get from where ever.

 

So is the UK Treasury going to take the fines or the EU that the UK is no longer in?

It is the UK Government getting a letter today from the Manufacturers, SMMT etc.   To do something about the 22% that they have to meet, or the 10% Light Commercials.

Edited 4 October, 20241 yr by Ootohere

49 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

@Graham Butcher  These days are when you are doing the distances as we can not go back to the future of being younger and needing to pee less often. 

 

BBC 5 Live this morning, Wake Up to Money.   EV,s discussed again.  Some points were well made and some statements were just the same old that is repeated.

'Is EV Insurance really high now?' 

http://bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0023gq8

 

True but the thing is I can last far longer than the 2 hours without needing a comfort break, especially when sitting down I can certainly 4 to 6 hours easily so I could still do the Chelmsford to Lake District trip without the need for a comfort break.

12 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

@EnterName You posted it.  So you do not know then?

I ask because there are too often daft things posted that people seem to get from where ever.

 

So is the UK Treasury going to take the fines or the EU that the UK is no longer in?

It is the UK Government getting a letter today from the Manufacturers, SMMT etc.   To do something about the 22% that they have to meet, or the 10% Light Commercials.

My point was that EV depreciation is being driven by EV pre-registration, which is driven by the prospect of punitive fines.

Beyond that, [Dings bell] Thank you! Morning!

28 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

It is the UK Government getting a letter today from the Manufacturers, SMMT etc.   To do something about the 22% that they have to meet, or the 10% Light Commercials.

Indeed.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/oct/04/carmakers-ramp-up-pressure-on-chancellor-for-ev-sales-subsidies

 

The part I have trouble believing is the £2 billion of discounting required to meet this target; they have sold something like 200,000EVs year-to-date, so are they really loosing £10k per vehicle? 

Is it at all possible because they are overpriced by £10k to start with? 

 

Who would have thought cheaper cars like EC3, EV3, Inster are the right way to gain sales volume. 

The brands shouting the loudest: BMW, Ford, JLR are the brands who are falling behind because they are only selling bloated SUV to begin with. 

 

EV's are hitting the volume segment, manufacturers who complain are those who got caught with their pants down. 

The new chancellor and prine minister will have to act and act soon then because at least 3 prime ministers from the previous governments have got the car dealers, manufacturers and pension funds and hedge funds to this point in the final quarter of 2024.   Not the EU. 

Edited 4 October, 20241 yr by Ootohere

5 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Indeed.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/oct/04/carmakers-ramp-up-pressure-on-chancellor-for-ev-sales-subsidies

 

The part I have trouble believing is the £2 billion of discounting required to meet this target; they have sold something like 200,000EVs year-to-date, so are they really loosing £10k per vehicle? 

Is it at all possible because they are overpriced by £10k to start with? 

 

Who would have thought cheaper cars like EC3, EV3, Inster are the right way to gain sales volume. 

The brands shouting the loudest: BMW, Ford, JLR are the brands who are falling behind because they are only selling bloated SUV to begin with. 

 

EV's are hitting the volume segment, manufacturers who complain are those who got caught with their pants down. 

From what Barrie was saying, motor traders (not all of whom are evil merchants) are getting bitten hard by the 'dumping' of pre-registered brand-new EVs.

So for those people who prefer to purchase a car, rather than have it on the never-never, they are going to suffer greater than expected depreciation when they come to part-ex their car.

Not only that, but in the event of an accident, an EV owner might find their expensively-bought EV is written-off in a fairly minor accident, and the value offered them for the written-off vehicle could be surprisingly low.

 

You make some good points in your post.

A lot of the initial enthusiasm for EVs was driven by shrewd people playing the game and getting a fancy but remarkably tax-efficient vehicle that they could run for pennies.

Most of these people were already affluent and had the entry fee to play the game.

While those shrewd & affluent people are doubtless still playing the game cleverly, there will be some people who are going to end up, somewhat unfairly IMO, with the short end of the stick.

As to a pee. I have to get one before arriving to public EV charge. Because the CPS chargers or park and rides do not have toilets or if they have they are not open. No point turning up at a charger and dancing about trying to find a tree if bush to go behind.  It tends to be where there is expensive charging and that there might be toilets near.  But not always in Scotland.   Actually roadside filling stations are usually the expensive fuel and you need to go off route to the out of town or supermarket cheap fuel places.  Many filling stations in Scotland have no toilets for the public. 

Edited 4 October, 20241 yr by Ootohere