55 minutes ago, domhnall said:

We queued for 10 minutes to get filled up.

Awe! Diddums!!  

4 hours ago, domhnall said:

You're quite the angry man aren't you? Do you just like arguing? Filling up a fossil car takes time whatever way you cut it. I own both and the difference is that with my ev I plug in and it takes a couple of seconds. I can then do whatever else it is I need to do. When I fill up my diesel I need to stand there holding on to the lever. 

 

I had to do it yesterday with my son's  fabia too. We queued for 10 minutes to get filled up. 

No, I'm not an angry man at all, but you are being less than honest here with your choice of filling station and also on the "actual time" spent on filling an ICE car, you cannot include the time taken to drive to and from the station, nor can you include any time waiting, as these also things that you have to do at any public chargers for your EV car. You also have failed to disclose the reason why you went to Costco when there is a Sainsbury filling station before Costco and there is a Esso PFS 1.5 miles further along the Edinburgh bypass at the next junction and is much closer to the bypass as well, so I took the effort to find out seeing as they not very common stations in the UK, I also took the time to research how many filling stations across the UK the other brands have and as far as I'm aware nobody has the ability to refuel their ICE cars at home from a pump, which you mentioned in an earlier that cannot fill your fossil car at home but you could do your EV. So you clearly don't think that you should have to suffer the same problems as most other drivers do.

 

So you are not comparing apples with apples, which is grossly unfair.

 

The average price for petrol currently is around 132p to 134p a litre and diesel is 136p to 138p a litre and can can be purchased from any of more than 7.414 filling stations across the whole of the UK  whereas you chose to use one of only 20 sites that Costco operate and given that your tale of having to queue for 10 minutes to get on a pump, is not a scene that will not resonate with most ICE drivers, there is no current fuel shortage, so I discovered that the reason is that you pay only 124.7p a litre for petrol and 129.3p a litre for diesel. Now I wonder at what were you going to disclose that snippet then (by the way, I don't blame for buying at that price if you can), I'd be doing the same if I could, but you have to have an account there (so it was not a spur of the moment thing, going to Costco was always in your plan, (so you knew that there was quicker PFS at Sainsburys as you drove by it on the way in and out of Costco) and given the increased range from refuelling to the brim, its not something that will be repeated anywhere as many times as you will plugging in your EV. to cover the same distance.

So, no, I'm not an angry man but I'm a man who likes fairness and openness, which you have not demonstrated to me that you are, I get more reassuring vibes from Dave Takes It On than you are currently giving me by the constant twisting of facts and events rather than having to admit that it takes about 5 minutes to brim an ICE car for the average driver from the time of opening the filler cap, to paying for the fuel and driving away, something that you cannot do with an EV full stop.

 

So here is the run-down on Costco 

 

 

And here is run down on the other filling stations, which is not complete at all as there are numerous companies such as Harvest fuels for instance What we do - Harvest Energy who also supply other outlets like Coop filling stations and my Local Skoda repair centre.

 

Edited 7 October, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

Moving the goal post much? 

Where in last page have petrol/diesel price been mentioned? All throughout I can only see talking about time taken out of a trip. 

Are you in any way making a link that fuel price impact time taken to refuel due to higher demand? I'd agree with that because it's supply-demand-101. But I thought your main talking point were that liquid fuel are pumped at same rate? 

 

 

FWIW, I used to fuel up at an Esso a bit off J9 M1. Adds ~15min to my 40-45min morning commute because coming back on to motorway is more traffic and there's usually a small queue (never pump available on arriving). That Esso is the cheapest even compare to cheapest supermarket around my home. I got a fuel card through some deal and it takes further 3p or 4p off. 

 

Driving the same commute in EV doesn't add any time to the journey. Only 2x 2 seconds plug/unplug each day. 

 

Maths question time, which takes longer, 8x 2x 2 seconds or 1x 15min? Or even against 1x 5min to "brim the tank". 

Answer, 8x 2x 2 seconds is 32 seconds. I can't see how people can say standing around holding a fuel nozzle for multiple minutes is quick and convenient. 

 

Of course, owning driveway and all that. Hence I've always said EV should be first consideration for those suitable, but there's many suitable who are still buying brand new ICE and parking on their driveways. It's all because of FUD against EV's being spread. 

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Moving the goal post much? 

Where in last page have petrol/diesel price been mentioned? All throughout I can only see talking about time taken out of a trip. 

Are you in any way making a link that fuel price impact time taken to refuel due to higher demand? I'd agree with that because it's supply-demand-101. But I thought your main talking point were that liquid fuel are pumped at same rate? 

 

 

FWIW, I used to fuel up at an Esso a bit off J9 M1. Adds ~15min to my 40-45min morning commute because coming back on to motorway is more traffic and there's usually a small queue (never pump available on arriving). That Esso is the cheapest even compare to cheapest supermarket around my home. I got a fuel card through some deal and it takes further 3p or 4p off. 

 

Driving the same commute in EV doesn't add any time to the journey. Only 2x 2 seconds plug/unplug each day. 

 

Maths question time, which takes longer, 8x 2x 2 seconds or 1x 15min? Or even against 1x 5min to "brim the tank". 

Answer, 8x 2x 2 seconds is 32 seconds. I can't see how people can say standing around holding a fuel nozzle for multiple minutes is quick and convenient. 

 

Of course, owning driveway and all that. Hence I've always said EV should be first consideration for those suitable, but there's many suitable who are still buying brand new ICE and parking on their driveways. It's all because of FUD against EV's being spread. 

Thank you for those observations, shame you were not a bit more diligent and looked at the last post where the same PFS is in use with his son's car this time. To use a Costco PFS you need to have registered an account with them which costs you an annual subscription fee. To gain access to Costco PFS you have to drive past a Sainsbury's PFS on the left, 2 more roundabouts to reach Costco and a bit further on the same estate is a 24Hr Asda PFS. Where A68 joins the A720 (Edinburgh bypass) driving to the first junction, there is a Tesco PFS 1.4 miles from the junction. Costco is a further 4 miles and off the 2nd junction on the bypass. Thus Costco was not the first PFS after leaving the A68, (as claimed) but was in fact the 3rd PFS and in view of the fact that Costco is member's only, it was his intended PFS, so therefore was planned into his journey. Something that you in particular have always claimed about planning the route is key, as an EV driver, so when driving an ICE car, do you automatically forget to plan your route???

 

PS the price of fuel is not the issue, it is still about time and being economical with the truth, if you know you're going to members only PFS (18 filling pumps) with prices like those you also expect to queue so it is NOT a typical experience of a normal ICE fillup.

Edited 7 October, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

43 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Thank you for those observations, shame you were not a bit more diligent and looked at the last post where the same PFS is in use with his son's car this time. To use a Costco PFS you need to have registered an account with them which costs you an annual subscription fee. To gain access to Costco PFS you have to drive past a Sainsbury's PFS on the left, 2 more roundabouts to reach Costco and a bit further on the same estate is a 24Hr Asda PFS. Where A68 joins the A720 (Edinburgh bypass) driving to the first junction, there is a Tesco PFS 1.4 miles from the junction. Costco is a further 4 miles and off the 2nd junction on the bypass. Thus Costco was not the first PFS after leaving the A68, (as claimed) but was in fact the 3rd PFS and in view of the fact that Costco is member's only, it was his intended PFS, so therefore was planned into his journey. Something that you in particular have always claimed about planning the route is key, as an EV driver, so when driving an ICE car, do you automatically forget to plan your route???

You just can't help and move the goal post again. It is about planning fuel up's now?

 

So your post on cost was pointless? Your point about 5min fuel up in the previous post no longer relevant? 

13 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

rather than having to admit that it takes about 5 minutes to brim an ICE car for the average driver from the time of opening the filler cap, to paying for the fuel and driving away, something that you cannot do with an EV full stop.

 

As mentioned, during everyday driving, EV are more convenient and actually less time spent, don't even need to think about fuelling up. 

For longer journey, rest stop naturally happen and simply plug in when resting. Planning not required if in-car sat-nav software is good enough. 

For day trips where total driving is around 4 hours in total on motorway, or 6 hours around here with a bit of local traffic at either end, EV doesn't need any planning or preparation. Whereas with ICE, as you've previously said, need to check and possibly fuel the day before, taking 10minutes minimum even if the fuel station is literally next door to your house (get dressed, start, drive around, 5min fuel up, drive back, change into comfy cloths. Ok, may be 6 minutes if you go out in public in your PJ )  

 

I have plugged in the Leaf in my PJ before. Leaf BMS records how many charger connect/disconnects. It is also very poorly connected in terms of app control or Home Assistant integration. So when wife told me she want 100% next day for driving to shopping centre, I had to go and plug it in. 11pm in a Close,  5 seconds, no one saw 🤠

 

 

 

In other news, my Powerwall was meant to be installed today, installer sick, had to reschedule to 18th. 😞 

New phone coming today though, I'll be using the new 80% charge limiter and see if it makes any difference. 

My current iPhone 12 mini that has seen battery use around 140% every day is still reporting 83% health at 4 years old. Conservative estimate with 120% battery use each day puts it at over 1750 total battery cycles so far. 

 

Modern batteries really do last and can take a beating. 

Meanwhile, my Tesla vehicle BMS says it has recorded 94x discharge cycles (I run sentry mode all the time when not at home). I'm confident it can last more than 1000x cycles. Extrapolate from current mileage means ~200k miles zero worries and zero service requirement on the whole powertrain. 

Edited 7 October, 20241 yr by wyx087

46 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

 

PS the price of fuel is not the issue, it is still about time and being economical with the truth, if you know you're going to members only PFS (18 filling pumps) with prices like those you also expect to queue so it is NOT a typical experience of a normal ICE fillup.

 

Just to comment very quickly on this - I use Costco and yes I generally expect to queue at busy times - much as I would at the local Sainsbury's on a Saturday, which is generally just as bad. I did so on Saturday and had maybe a 10 minute wait but I was at Costco anyway for food (my wife was already in the shop) and saving 10p per litre it's a wrth while thing to do.

 

However, filling up at Costco on the way home from work I very rarely have to queue and am usually straight on a pump or have just one car in front of me.

 

As ever with these things it depends on the 'spin' being placed upon the statements.

 

And yes I have a double driveway and a garage and three petrol powered ICE cars (one of which is a mild hybrid).  I could go EV and may well do so at some point in the future foe one of them but that will only happen when it suits me and I'm up for changing vehicles - which isn't going to be for many years yet (registrations are 2018, 2017 and 1995 - so lots of life left in them yet...)

4 hours ago, skomaz said:

 

Just to comment very quickly on this - I use Costco and yes I generally expect to queue at busy times - much as I would at the local Sainsbury's on a Saturday, which is generally just as bad. I did so on Saturday and had maybe a 10 minute wait but I was at Costco anyway for food (my wife was already in the shop) and saving 10p per litre it's a wrth while thing to do.

 

However, filling up at Costco on the way home from work I very rarely have to queue and am usually straight on a pump or have just one car in front of me.

 

As ever with these things it depends on the 'spin' being placed upon the statements.

 

And yes I have a double driveway and a garage and three petrol powered ICE cars (one of which is a mild hybrid).  I could go EV and may well do so at some point in the future foe one of them but that will only happen when it suits me and I'm up for changing vehicles - which isn't going to be for many years yet (registrations are 2018, 2017 and 1995 - so lots of life left in them yet...)

Thank you for trying to throw some clarity on the subject.

 

I shop at Tesco so shopping first, fuel on the way out, combining both in the same trip makes perfect sense and as my tank is never that low on fuel so on long runs, there will always be a filling station right on my route should I need it, and yes it might cost 2 or 3p a litre more but it saves me so much time as I didn't have to drive across a busy city to save a few coppers. I might be tempted to do that trip if the tank was lower, but I would not have the audacity to try and claim the time taken travelling as time taken to fill the tank, the two things are entirely separate. Fuel pumps deliver at the same speed so the process of filling is pretty constant, unlike chargers which depending on location and type, range from 7kW upto 360kW

 

I have a BP filling station just a few hundred metres away from me, but is 2p a litre dearer, and I have on occasions filled up there if in a real hurry.

Edited 7 October, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

@wyx087no I have not changed the goalposts, you are failing to comprehend the context and the points in question. Nobody is questioning the point about EVs being more convenient, why wouldn't they be if your daily drives are within the cars range so you can enjoy the cheapest possible charging, and it charges overnight and no driving to a PFS or charger, I have said before, if that works for you then it's a no-brainer, let's acknowledge that fact shall we?

 

Fact is that @domhnallis trying to say that my and the experience of others who have posted here claiming that they can "refuel" their car in 5 minutes or less is utter rubbish and in his own words,

"From the point where I left the Edinburgh bpyass, got to costco (the first filling station I passed) filled up and got back on the bypass it was 25 minutes. This idea that you take 5 minutes is for the birds"

 

Is the whole point in question.  He was going to Costco in any case, so not a diversion to get fuel, and it was not the first filling station he passed if he was on the A68 as later claimed, that would make Costco the 3rd filling station and the 25 minutes is part of the total journey time and not the time taken to fill up with diesel.

 

So in essence @domhnallis doing much the same as you do, whether it is deliberate or subconsciously, I don't know, but you both appear to do it, attempt to demonstrate just how superior the EV is to ICE cars. I think we all get the message about home charging, yes its cheaper, yes its more convenient but every single time anyone mentions that they can fill their ICE car from empty to full in approximately 5 minutes you all have to throw in comfort break, eating etc and while you;re doing that, the EV is charging. I suggest that for many EV drivers, the comfort breaks and eating / drinking are just something that they do to fill in the time while waiting to get enough charge in their battery, others may sit in their cars and use their phones etc. But it is true that for many they would not being those things if it were not forced upon them by the fact that their car needs more energy to continue their journey.

 

You don't have to try and rubbish the ICE car and their drivers at every opportunity, but so many do. 

12 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

You don't have to try and rubbish the ICE car and their drivers at every opportunity, but so many do. 

So it's okay when you do it to EV, not okay when others do it other way round?

 

Your examples:

From creating doubts on solid data (aka spreading FUD): https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/517208-car-park-fires-transporters-ships-any-fires-an-evs-involved-or-not-thread-were-they-the-cause-just-there-and-so-made-fighting-the-fire-harder/?do=findComment&comment=5882665

To you don't like something "most of you EV drivers do" on a completely unrelated topic: https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/526744-not-just-a-question-for-ev-drivers-just-any-members-on-here-what-temperature-do-you-set-your-cars-interior-to-be-at/?do=findComment&comment=5884664

And many more in the middle.

 

As mentioned, there will always be certain level of spin. Your spin is worse than others and often worded as factual, either because you don't have the skills to write diligently or you want the statements to be true from bottom of your heart and want to mislead.

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

So it's okay when you do it to EV, not okay when others do it other way round?

 

Your examples:

From creating doubts on solid data (aka spreading FUD): https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/517208-car-park-fires-transporters-ships-any-fires-an-evs-involved-or-not-thread-were-they-the-cause-just-there-and-so-made-fighting-the-fire-harder/?do=findComment&comment=5882665

To you don't like something "most of you EV drivers do" on a completely unrelated topic: https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/526744-not-just-a-question-for-ev-drivers-just-any-members-on-here-what-temperature-do-you-set-your-cars-interior-to-be-at/?do=findComment&comment=5884664

And many more in the middle.

 

As mentioned, there will always be certain level of spin. Your spin is worse than others and often worded as factual, either because you don't have the skills to write diligently or you want the statements to be true from bottom of your heart and want to mislead.

Completely untrue, I just don't accept things coming from certain quarters at face value such as governments and their paid for reports. How many billions around the world fell for the diesel guff only to be told their cars pollute more and we should be changing them? And there are many other examples like that. I can't be bothered to discuss it further with you when you only see what you want to see, closed mindset. If you disagree with things I post then save yourself and put me on your list of blocked members then you won't have to read anything I post again. 

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

@wyx087no I have not changed the goalposts, you are failing to comprehend the context and the points in question. Nobody is questioning the point about EVs being more convenient, why wouldn't they be if your daily drives are within the cars range so you can enjoy the cheapest possible charging, and it charges overnight and no driving to a PFS or charger, I have said before, if that works for you then it's a no-brainer, let's acknowledge that fact shall we?

 

Fact is that @domhnallis trying to say that my and the experience of others who have posted here claiming that they can "refuel" their car in 5 minutes or less is utter rubbish and in his own words,

"From the point where I left the Edinburgh bpyass, got to costco (the first filling station I passed) filled up and got back on the bypass it was 25 minutes. This idea that you take 5 minutes is for the birds"

 

Is the whole point in question.  He was going to Costco in any case, so not a diversion to get fuel, and it was not the first filling station he passed if he was on the A68 as later claimed, that would make Costco the 3rd filling station and the 25 minutes is part of the total journey time and not the time taken to fill up with diesel.

 

So in essence @domhnallis doing much the same as you do, whether it is deliberate or subconsciously, I don't know, but you both appear to do it, attempt to demonstrate just how superior the EV is to ICE cars. I think we all get the message about home charging, yes its cheaper, yes its more convenient but every single time anyone mentions that they can fill their ICE car from empty to full in approximately 5 minutes you all have to throw in comfort break, eating etc and while you;re doing that, the EV is charging. I suggest that for many EV drivers, the comfort breaks and eating / drinking are just something that they do to fill in the time while waiting to get enough charge in their battery, others may sit in their cars and use their phones etc. But it is true that for many they would not being those things if it were not forced upon them by the fact that their car needs more energy to continue their journey.

 

You don't have to try and rubbish the ICE car and their drivers at every opportunity, but so many do. 

 

excuse me? I was not going to Costco, I was driving down South, heading for Otterburn, I had no reason to go to Costco. The PFS in Livingston at Lizzie Bryce has closed down, the next one I pass without turning back on myself is Costco and at 10p per litre saving it's just the best option. 

 

I do not sit either in my car or in a service area waiting for my car to charge. I do what I need to do and then head back to the car. Because I typically am only doing 375 miles I don't need to stop for more tan 10 minutes and walkign to and from the loo takes longer than that. My car can reach Northampton from Edinburgh without stopping but I am simply unable (and unwilling) to drive for 5 or 6 hours without stopping. As I say I have employer rules that tell me I must stop for safety reasons for a 15 minute break every 2 hours. I just apply that to my private mileage too.  If I stop for fuel that is longer than not stopping for fuel, I had to turn off the A720, head for costco and then back again to the A720.  My journey did not involve passign any roadside filling stations, so filling up with diesel involved a diversion off route. That diversion off route takes time, time which adds to the journey time. Like I said before had I been in the Skoda then I would have arrived at my destination sooner than I did using the diesel. Splitting hairs abotu which minutes were paart of the journey and which were part of the refuelling process is just silly. Arrival time in the Skoda would have been earleir than arrival time in the diesel VW. That's all there is to it for me as the driver.  In the diesel it cost me more and took longer. Simple. As for rubbishing ICE cars and drivers, I rarely see that. What I do see is posts about EVs being jumped on by luddites who are desperate to tell EV drivers how stupid they are and how inferior their cars are. There's even a bingo sheet EV drivers have for these occasions.  

50 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

If you disagree with things I post then save yourself and put me on your list of blocked members then you won't have to read anything I post again. 

That's not how the forum works.

 

If you continue to post disinformation (more damaging than misinformation) and FUD, then be prepared to have it questioned, fact checked and ousted.

 

If you don't like your posts to be questioned, save yourself and stop posting FUD, do some very basic fact checks yourself.

46 minutes ago, domhnall said:

 

excuse me? I was not going to Costco, I was driving down South, heading for Otterburn, I had no reason to go to Costco. The PFS in Livingston at Lizzie Bryce has closed down, the next one I pass without turning back on myself is Costco and at 10p per litre saving it's just the best option. 

 

I do not sit either in my car or in a service area waiting for my car to charge. I do what I need to do and then head back to the car. Because I typically am only doing 375 miles I don't need to stop for more tan 10 minutes and walkign to and from the loo takes longer than that. My car can reach Northampton from Edinburgh without stopping but I am simply unable (and unwilling) to drive for 5 or 6 hours without stopping. As I say I have employer rules that tell me I must stop for safety reasons for a 15 minute break every 2 hours. I just apply that to my private mileage too.  If I stop for fuel that is longer than not stopping for fuel, I had to turn off the A720, head for costco and then back again to the A720.  My journey did not involve passign any roadside filling stations, so filling up with diesel involved a diversion off route. That diversion off route takes time, time which adds to the journey time. Like I said before had I been in the Skoda then I would have arrived at my destination sooner than I did using the diesel. Splitting hairs abotu which minutes were paart of the journey and which were part of the refuelling process is just silly. Arrival time in the Skoda would have been earleir than arrival time in the diesel VW. That's all there is to it for me as the driver.  In the diesel it cost me more and took longer. Simple. As for rubbishing ICE cars and drivers, I rarely see that. What I do see is posts about EVs being jumped on by luddites who are desperate to tell EV drivers how stupid they are and how inferior their cars are. There's even a bingo sheet EV drivers have for these occasions.  

Ok, I can accept that, but your post was very cryptic but there was still the Esso PFS the junction before the A701 junction and then still the Sainsbury PFS before Costco. That said, as I said before I don't blame you, given those prices, I'd have done the same thing, except I couln't because I'm not a member. But the debacle has been over you claiming that filling an ICE car in 5 minutes is for the birds! To most people filling a car starts when you put the nozzle in the tank, squeeze the trigger, fill it till the pump switches off, replace the nozzle, pay for the fuel and get back in the car, job done and noway on earth is that longer then 5 minutes is it.

 

Time taken to leave the bypass, get to the pump and back again is not filling nor is it charging if the car was EV, both process start with getting to the energy source, filling the tank, or topping up the battery and replacing the hose or the charging cable full stop. Are finally going to agree on that point and move on?

 

I'm not a Luddite trying to rubbish EVs, unlike some people think I am, What I am is just a person who is sceptical that the technology is the right way forward at this point in time given the issues with the batteries if they catch fire which many are now getting concerned about.

 

Like I keep saying, I remember how governments were pushing diesels, all the incentives being given out, and we all now know how that turned out, I concerned that we are maybe going down the same route again, once bitten, twice shy.

Edited 7 October, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

4 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Ok, I can accept that, but your post was very cryptic but there was still the Esso PFS the junction before the A701 junction and then still the Sainsbury PFS before Costco. That said, as I said before I don't blame you, given those prices, I'd have done the same thing, except I couln't because I'm not a member. But the debacle has been over you claiming that filling an ICE car in 5 minutes is for the birds! To most people filling a car starts when you put the nozzle in the tank, squeeze the trigger, fill it till the pump switches off, replace the nozzle, pay for the fuel and get back in the car, job done and noway on earth is that longer then 5 minutes is it.

 

Time taken to leave the bypass, get to the pump and back again is not filling nor is it charging if the car was EV, both process start with getting to the energy source, filling the tank, or topping up the battery and replacing the hose or the charging cable full stop. Are finally going to agree on that point and move on?

 

I'm not a Luddite trying to rubbish EVs, unlike some people think I am, What I am is just a person who is sceptical that the technology is the right way forward at this point in time given the issues with the batteries if they catch fire which many are now getting concerned about.

 

Like I keep saying, I remember how governments were pushing diesels, all the incentives being given out, and we all now know how that turned out, I concerned that we are maybe going down the same route again, once bitten, twice shy.

 

Not sure where the Esso one is that you mention, I certainly never saw anything. The Sainsburys one is about 50m from the costco one but costs a lot more.  I paid £1.22 a litre at the weekend filling up my son's fabia.

My point is not the time it physically takes to put the nozzle in (I mean on that basis the ev takes seconds) but rather by how long is the journey prolonged by the fuelling process. In this case is would have been more than 20 minutes shorter had I been in the Skoda. 

As for the fire risk, you are far more at risk from laptops and phones that have zero thermal management. The stats from the insurance industry are perfectly clear. Fossil fuelled cars catch fire 20 times as often as battery powered cars. If you're concerned that EVs may somehow be more polluting I would be fascinated to understand on what basis that is. 

Edited 7 October, 20241 yr by domhnall

32 minutes ago, domhnall said:

 

Not sure where the Esso one is that you mention, I certainly never saw anything. The Sainsburys one is about 50m from the costco one but costs a lot more.  I paid £1.22 a litre at the weekend filling up my son's fabia.

My point is not the time it physically takes to put the nozzle in (I mean on that basis the ev takes seconds) but rather by how long is the journey prolonged by the fuelling process. In this case is would have been more than 20 minutes shorter had I been in the Skoda. 

As for the fire risk, you are far more at risk from laptops and phones that have zero thermal management. The stats from the insurance industry are perfectly clear. Fossil fuelled cars catch fire 20 times as often as battery powered cars. If you're concerned that EVs may somehow be more polluting I would be fascinated to understand on what basis that is. 

The screen prints below are taken from my TomTom route planner, which as you can see lists 12 PFS in the Livingston area, and again another 12 in and around the Loanhead area, and the Esso is the one on the right side of the bypass on the exit before the one you took to Costco. So it would seem that my aftermarket satnav has a better database than that in your Enyaq? I just asked it to show me finning stations in the area and bingo there they are.

 

I can see from what you say above that you have not grasped what I'm saying about "filling". Filling is more than plugging a cable in or a put a nozzle in, that is the start of the process, the rest is the time that stand there squeezing the trigger, and putting nozzle back in the pump holder and finished paying for the fuel, and in the case of your Tesla, its plugging the cable in, then taking your walk etc, and then unplugging the cable and paying for the Lecky.  The time taken to reach the charger, plus queueing (if there is a queue) then rejoining back on your route again is not filling or charging time is it? If your Tesla needed a top up charge on route, you still have to go to the charger and then return to the route again. I mean if both charger and pump, were at the roadside, is it not true that the Enyaq would be ready to go even if you weren't, far quicker than the Tesla would be?

As to ICE being far more likely to catch fire than EV cars, that comes as no surprise to me or anybody else given the vast numbers of them compared to their EV counterparts. The other part of the equation is that most of the ICE number are way older than the EVs and therefore will be in far worse condition overall than the EV cars and many will be bangers with DIY repairs and bodges applied etc.

I disagree about being at greater risk with phones and laptops, vapes etc, I could explain in more depth but here is not the place for that kind of discussion, if you're keen to go more in depth I could message you.

 

As to the pollution angle, well that has a far more to with the batteries catching fire than any emissions as the only emissions will from the tyres and the brakes. 

 

 

 

 

Just a small point that people that drive the A720 City of Edinburgh By-pass know. 

If you are trying to go any place for a few hours from now and then again later this afternoon if you are moving you are not pulling off to get fuel and then trying to join again. 

Edited 8 October, 20241 yr by Ootohere

10 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

in the case of your Tesla, its plugging the cable in, then taking your walk etc, and then unplugging the cable and paying for the Lecky.

Correction. 

In case of Tesla at Tesla supercharger, No need to account for faffing about with payment, it is automatic and handled by the car. 

 

Plug and charge is coming for other vehicles on other network very soon. 

Don't forget Dom drives a Skoda, which (will?) support plug and charge: https://www.skoda-storyboard.com/en/emobility/just-plug-and-charge/

 

 

Also, time spent rapid charging should only be counted if needing to do any extra waiting after doing what one already need to do during comfort breaks, For example, if you run to the toilet and run back at midnight when it is empty and possible to do it in 5min, then the other 15 minutes out of 20min counts as charging time. 

 

But reality is typical service stop period is around 15min just for toilet at a leisurely pace. I have tried to hurry passengers whilst driving my Octavia and they didn't like it. Before buying full BEV for long trips, I've timed multiple rest stops and 15-20min is normal, <10min is only achievable if trying hard and very stressful for everyone. Looking at my trip log (TeslaMate), we meant to do a very quick toilet stop at the A82 service, no charging just stop, toilet number 1, comeback and drive off, at 3pm, still took almost 15min and parking cannot be any closer to the rear toilet entrance. 

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Correction. 

In case of Tesla at Tesla supercharger, No need to account for faffing about with payment, it is automatic and handled by the car. 

 

Plug and charge is coming for other vehicles on other network very soon. 

Don't forget Dom drives a Skoda, which (will?) support plug and charge: https://www.skoda-storyboard.com/en/emobility/just-plug-and-charge/

 

 

Also, time spent rapid charging should only be counted if needing to do any extra waiting after doing what one already need to do during comfort breaks, For example, if you run to the toilet and run back at midnight when it is empty and possible to do it in 5min, then the other 15 minutes out of 20min counts as charging time. 

 

But reality is typical service stop period is around 15min just for toilet at a leisurely pace. I have tried to hurry passengers whilst driving my Octavia and they didn't like it. Before buying full BEV for long trips, I've timed multiple rest stops and 15-20min is normal, <10min is only achievable if trying hard and very stressful for everyone. Looking at my trip log (TeslaMate), we meant to do a very quick toilet stop at the A82 service, no charging just stop, toilet number 1, comeback and drive off, at 3pm, still took almost 15min and parking cannot be any closer to the rear toilet entrance. 

Agreed, but that was just analogy, if you need to have a comfort break, then you need one, but for the sake of argument, if you were on your own and filling your Octavia, and then clearing the forecourt to allow other drivers to use the pump, while you went and did your business, the time taken to fill your Octavia, is still the time it took from pulling up at the pump, filling, paying and then driving away from the pump, it does not include the time to reach the pump, nor the time waiting, nor the toilet break or the time to get back onto the route.

 

The only difference in reality (ignoring the charging time, assuming you needed to charge, will always be slower), is that with EV, it would be charging while your having your toilet break, you would still have to exit the route and rejoin the route afterwards, agreed?

29 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Agreed, but that was just analogy, if you need to have a comfort break, then you need one, but for the sake of argument, if you were on your own and filling your Octavia, and then clearing the forecourt to allow other drivers to use the pump, while you went and did your business, the time taken to fill your Octavia, is still the time it took from pulling up at the pump, filling, paying and then driving away from the pump, it does not include the time to reach the pump, nor the time waiting, nor the toilet break or the time to get back onto the route.

 

The only difference in reality (ignoring the charging time, assuming you needed to charge, will always be slower), is that with EV, it would be charging while your having your toilet break, you would still have to exit the route and rejoin the route afterwards, agreed?

 

 

so I no longer have a tesla, the "database" in my Enyaq is irrelevant, I was in my VW transporter which has no sat nav. I thought the Esso station you mentioned had closed years ago, it certainly was at one point, in any event that too would have required a diversion off route and then it's not on a junction so in heavy traffic quite awkwrd to get back on to my route. 

I drive a Skoda which simply involves plugging in and then walkign away, I dodn't faff about with payment, plug and charge does that for me. And I think at last you're beginning to grasp my point about time spent filling. At no point since I ditched the Nissan Leaf have I sat waiting for my car to complete a charge. Driving from here to Milton Keynes I stop at Carlisle. I plug in, go to the loo, grab a coffee and then unplug and go. I don't even drink the coffee at the chargepoint, I get on my way. Then I typically stop around the Lancaster area for lunch, Again, plug in, go into McDonalds, grab an (un) healthy meal, eat it, pee and then get on the road. That's it. Why on earth would I want to prolong my long journey by sitting fiddling with my phone or whatever. The only time I do that is if I have to join a meeting on Teams in which case I pull in and do the call while sitting still. If possible I do that at a charger so that I make most efficient use of the time. 

I have made plenty journeys in both vehicles. Regardless of fuel type I tend to stop at roughly the same places for the same time. But in the diesel I need to make an additional stop for fuel because as well as not havign a sat nav the VW also refuses to refill itself. 

 

@wyx087 Quick question regarding plug and charge.

 

I have the skoda powerpass and an electorverse app plus the Tesla app.

 

If i activate Plug and charge on the powerpass app and the Electorverse one .

Or if i only activate it on one but decide to use the other later would the one with plug and charge activated charge me as well?

 

How do i ensure only one bills me?

Edited 8 October, 20241 yr by Stonekeeper

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

The only difference in reality (ignoring the charging time, assuming you needed to charge, will always be slower), is that with EV, it would be charging while your having your toilet break, you would still have to exit the route and rejoin the route afterwards, agreed?

Yes. totally agree outside your brackets. We are getting there. 

 

If we want to be 100% comparable, time to refuel liquid fuel should start ticking the moment car deviate from original route and end upon re-joining original route. It should include any time spent queuing should there be a queue and for long journey, any time spent going to the loo/herding passengers. 

Time to recharge is similar. Time starts from deviate from route and end upon re-joining. 

 

If refuel at petrol station is another stop (for cost), both comfort break + secondary stop should be counted. Same for EV recharging, it's only fair. 

 

But reality is that EV doesn't need this until more than 250 miles or 4+ hours have been driven (if driveway = true), whereas ICE must have minimum of 10min preparation before trip or otherwise when it needs refuelling is non-deterministic. Could be less than 100 miles into the trip and a comfort break isn't needed. 

 

The point is re-energise being slower from 5min (ICE) to 20min (EV) is not important if car is going to be parked for roughly that duration anyway.

5min at petrol station + 15min at service = 20min rapid charging at service.  Similar amount of time not making progress. 

 

7 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 Quick question regarding plug and charge.

This question is better directed at @domhnall 

I'm afraid I have zero knowledge of what you are trying to do, I only have experience with Tesla. (and 2011-2016 era Nissan) 

 

Edited 8 October, 20241 yr by wyx087

15 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

@wyx087 Quick question regarding plug and charge.

 

I have the skoda powerpass and an electorverse app plus the Tesla app.

 

If i activate Plug and charge on the powerpass app and the Electorverse one .

Or if i only activate it on one but decide to use the other later would the one with plug and charge activated charge me as well?

 

How do i ensure only one bills me?

you can have one or the other but not both or the car won't know which one to use

14 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Yes. totally agree outside your brackets. We are getting there. 

 

If we want to be 100% comparable, time to refuel liquid fuel should start ticking the moment car deviate from original route and end upon re-joining original route. It should include any time spent queuing should there be a queue and for long journey, any time spent going to the loo/herding passengers. 

Time to recharge is similar. Time starts from deviate from route and end upon re-joining. 

 

If refuel at petrol station is another stop (for cost), both comfort break + secondary stop should be counted. Same for EV recharging, it's only fair. 

 

But reality is that EV doesn't need this until more than 250 miles or 4+ hours have been driven (if driveway = true), whereas ICE must have minimum of 10min preparation before trip or otherwise when it needs refuelling is non-deterministic. Could be less than 100 miles into the trip and a comfort break isn't needed. 

 

The point is re-energise being slower from 5min (ICE) to 20min (EV) is not important if car is going to be parked for roughly that duration anyway.

5min at petrol station + 15min at service = 20min rapid charging at service.  Similar amount of time not making progress. 

 

This question is better directed at @domhnall 

I'm afraid I have zero knowledge of what you are trying to do, I only have experience with Tesla. (and 2011-2016 era Nissan) 

 

 

nailed it, this is my point. The EV charges while it would be parked up anyway. The ICE vehicle would also be parked up, so the deivation from route etc is identical. The only additional deviation is when you have to come off the route specifically to refuel. Your 5+20 example illistrates this perfectly

 

13 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

As to ICE being far more likely to catch fire than EV cars, that comes as no surprise to me or anybody else given the vast numbers of them compared to their EV counterparts. The other part of the equation is that most of the ICE number are way older than the EVs and therefore will be in far worse condition overall than the EV cars and many will be bangers with DIY repairs and bodges applied etc.

I disagree about being at greater risk with phones and laptops, vapes etc, I could explain in more depth but here is not the place for that kind of discussion, if you're keen to go more in depth I could message you.

 

As to the pollution angle, well that has a far more to with the batteries catching fire than any emissions as the only emissions will from the tyres and the brakes. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wasn't talking about the simple number of fires, I meant the proportion of fires among that type of vehicle , more ICE vehicles catch fire than EVs but also there's a far higher proportion of ICE cars on the road that catch fire, ie you are more likely to see an ICE on fire. 

Widely reported but ths is from Top Gear on the Swedish study

The Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency (MSB) reported 23 fires in 611,000 EVs during 2022, or 0.004 per cent in a year, which makes it 20 times less likely to happen than ICE car fires, which burned 3,400 times in 4.4 million cars, or 0.08 per cent. MSB has also recently proven a new way to extinguish battery fires fast.

then there's the also widely reported insurance study which shows that Hybrids are most likely to catch fire, followed by conventional ICE cars and then the lowest risk is from EVs

 

https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs-electric-car-fires/

 

 

On 06/10/2024 at 21:15, Paws4Thot said:

Awe! Diddums!!  

thanks for your mature and constructive contribution to the discussion