22 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

That salary sacrifice scheme is one of the reasons why I retired when I did, as my employer was removing themselves from the burden of having to supply a company car for those who needed one in order to carry out their job requirements and shifting that burden onto the employee using that scheme. In other words, once I had entered into that arrangement, I became liable for the payments and maintenance, insurance, VED costs for the car, as well as the costs of providing a replacement hire vehicle should it become necessary when the car went in for servicing and repairs etc.

It made far more sense to me not to get a millstone around my neck at a time when I was already past normal retirement age, instead, I retired and purchased my existing company car from the leasing company when the lease expired, a couple of months after I retired. It was agreed that I could continue to use the company car til then, provided I took out an insurance policy on the car.

So as far as I was concerned, it was set up to benefit the employers rather than the employees, and it would have been a hefty penalty to get out of the contract should I be unable to continue meeting the payments due to poor health or losing my employment for whatever reason, which was totally unacceptable as far as I was concerned.

Very understandable.

Glad I am not having to go on to new employers VAG scheme, only wish to stay on the cash scheme so I can choose. Loved my dozen Skodas from Felicias to Octavias and numerous L&K and VRSs but nothing in the Skoda range tempts me any more when compared to other marque offerings sadly.

Hope Skoda will be sold by VW at some point and be as successful as Dacia is to Renault…..

Needless superfluousness snipped , Briskoda staff

New company does have EV charging at most sites though either free or at around 30 p kwh so one plus.

20 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Disagree, an old ICE car costing a couple of thousand or even less is ideal. Many people in such a situation just buy a £500 banger; as long as it has an MOT and is safe to drive, it is a far better cost option than getting a new car. As far pollution goes, it would again be creating less pollution to do that than it would be to purchase a new car for such a trivial distance; after all, the banger has had its manufacturing environmental impact already and would therefore be far greener to use than making a new car with its massive overheads and unless your daughter is going to be driving massive amounts each year, it is unlikely to ever get into the realms where its manufacturing footprint is wiped out.

Every ICE car is horrendous for emissions in the first mile or so ie as the Cat gets up to temperature. Tests show those emissions are up to 6 or 7 times worse than the lab test emmissions results.

On top of that a car with some tens of thousands of miles on the clock, leaking piston rings and it will ve even worse.

EVs don't really change their emissions through their lifetime.

The new UK EV government grant system rewards local biulding of battery packs and this is why the UK government is rewarding BMW MINI Leipzig factory, Nissan at Sunderland and Renault's Northern France ElectriCity site for their green production techniques clustering battery and car production together.

I have had horror stories with second hand out of warranty ICE cars, simple thermostat problem costing hundreds of pounds, no thank you. EV simplicity and reliability. Worth putting up with the less range for all the benefits of massively lower running costs, fast warm ups, instant acceleration etc.

33 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Every ICE car is horrendous for emissions in the first mile or so ie as the Cat gets up to temperature. Tests show those emissions are up to 6 or 7 times worse than the lab test emmissions results.

On top of that a car with some tens of thousands of miles on the clock, leaking piston rings and it will ve even worse.

EVs don't really change their emissions through their lifetime.

The new UK EV government grant system rewards local biulding of battery packs and this is why the UK government is rewarding BMW MINI Leipzig factory, Nissan at Sunderland and Renault's Northern France ElectriCity site for their green production techniques clustering battery and car production together.

I have had horror stories with second hand out of warranty ICE cars, simple thermostat problem costing hundreds of pounds, no thank you. EV simplicity and reliability. Worth putting up with the less range for all the benefits of massively lower running costs, fast warm ups, instant acceleration etc.

All of that is true, but is still far less emissions than making a new car just to drive primarily a couple of miles a day to work. A EV has to do thousands of miles before it can claim that its clean.

2 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

All of that is true, but is still far less emissions than making a new car just to drive primarily a couple of miles a day to work. A EV has to do thousands of miles before it can claim that its clean.

I am guessing you are specifically referring to CO2 and it is true that producing an EV requires several tonnes of CO2, one way or another, to be made. We have no replacement yet to sea transport, or air, than burning diesel or as we do currently but increasingly we are replacing our container ships with LNG as a fuel which about a quarter less CO2.

But there are the other pollutants such as NOX and brake dust that EVs produce little to none of not just CO2 but ICE vehicles produce significant amounts of.

Edited 9 December, 20259 Dec by lol-lol

48 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

I am guessing you are specifically referring to CO2 and it is true that producing an EV requires several tonnes of CO2, one way or another, to be made. We have no replacement yet to sea transport, or air, than burning diesel or as we do currently but increasingly we are replacing our container ships with LNG as a fuel which about a quarter less CO2.

But there are the other pollutants such as NOX and brake dust that EVs produce little to none of not just CO2 but ICE vehicles produce significant amounts of.

Yes but that is only part of it, they are not pushing EV mandate to remove NOX, it is only a tiny fraction of what it was in the 60s and 70s and is constantly going down all the time with new technology being built into ICE cars all the time. It is CO2 that is behind the EV drive and Net Zero. Also as has been pointed out already, not everyone is in your priveliged position, many can only afford bangers for transportation, so an ICE would be their car of choice.

Edited 9 December, 20259 Dec by Graham Butcher

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes but that is only part of it, they are not pushing EV mandate to remove NOX, it is only a tiny fraction of what it was on the 60s and 70s and is constantly going down all the time with new technology being built into ICE cars all the time. It is CO2 that is behind the EV drive and Net Zero. Also as has been pointed out already, not everyone is in your priveliged position, many can afford bangers for transportation, so an ICE would be their car of choice.

There are lots of very good second hand EVs around now and for quite small money. Also increasingly cheap monthly payments on new as the subsidies feed through and for people who need lowish monthly payments abd very low running costs meaning lowish monthly outgoings are options out there.

Putting 60 or 70 pounds of diesel or petrol two or three times a month is expensive when although the PCP etc might be a bit higher when one looks at the all in cost EVs are looking better and better as months go by.

2026 will be a pivotal year I reckon as ICE vehicle running costs leap upwards with the rises in fuel duty but EV cost continue to fall with electicity cost coming down and ever cheaper vehicles due to cheaper batteries, more cars getting the full £3750 grant and the Expensive Car Supplement getting pushed much higher.

It cost me £60 for 350 miles using public charging these past few days. Still £45 pending from BP Pulse for the £22 it coat me at Edinburgh Airport 36 hours ago. 61 pence a kWh. Other tariffs 65 & 70 pence a kWh. Running a Diesel can be much cheaper. 350 miles & 50 mpg, 7 gallons. x £6.60 = £46.20

Edited 9 December, 20259 Dec by Evolution13

49 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

There are lots of very good second hand EVs around now and for quite small money. Also increasingly cheap monthly payments on new as the subsidies feed through and for people who need lowish monthly payments abd very low running costs meaning lowish monthly outgoings are options out there.

Putting 60 or 70 pounds of diesel or petrol two or three times a month is expensive when although the PCP etc might be a bit higher when one looks at the all in cost EVs are looking better and better as months go by.

2026 will be a pivotal year I reckon as ICE vehicle running costs leap upwards with the rises in fuel duty but EV cost continue to fall with electicity cost coming down and ever cheaper vehicles due to cheaper batteries, more cars getting the full £3750 grant and the Expensive Car Supplement getting pushed much higher.

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that. I think you will find that ICE cars will be on sale at least up to 2040 now following reports that the EU are just about to announce this groundbreaking news. This will put immense pressure on the UK to follow suit as well. Net zero is beginning to look a bit dubious after all, fancy that. Many key players were absent from COP29, which failed to issue any new rules, and was also accused of being massively anti-green in itself.

Remember when this is confirmed where you heard it first, right here.

As to the VAG group's poor attempts at EVs, with ID3 and ID4 being the ones you mentioned, you are aware, I hope, that Ford's range of EVs are largely VAG products, I hope?

Edited 9 December, 20259 Dec by Graham Butcher

Insurance prices of EV,s are only going one way. The future might be bright but it is not going to be because of the reducing costs of running an EV for those without Home or Work charging. @lol-lol Have you got good prices on your EV,s insurance, social domestic & business use?

2 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that. I think you will find that ICE cars will be on sale at least up to 2040 now following reports that the EU are just about to announce this groundbreaking news. This will put immense pressure on the UK to follow suit as well. Net zero is beginning to look a bit dubious after all, fancy that.

Remember when this is confirmed where you heard it first, right here.

As to the VAG group's poor attempts at EVs, with ID3 and ID4 being the ones you mentioned, you are aware, I hope, that Ford's range of EVs are largely VAG products, I hope?

When can understand the popularity of very cheap ICE cars. The Dacia Sandero and Renault Clio, same platform, is the best selling car in Europe bar none and having owned a Clio with the 0.9 litre TCE engine and a Dacia Logan estate car with the same engine they are incredibly cheap to buy and run. My Logan was £10k when j got it a decad ago, could run it for less than 25p a mile all in and I got an extra grand when I traded it in after 3 years, total bargain. The 0.9 litre Clio, early mark 4 so the better looking one, one daughter would poodle it about and be getting 65 mpg but also still managed to out speed a fiesta showing over 115 mph on the speedo.

Probably still be a market for such cars, the bew Clio mk 6 looks stunning too so I can see its success continuing. The hybrid version of the Clio, nicer to drive did not do better mpg than the 0.9 TCE engine abd cost thousands more to buy.

EU would have to relax its annually decreasing emmisions requirements ie 95, 94 gm/km as thus is very difficukt to achieve without hybrid assistance. Like with EVs the battery packs are getting cheaper but to add all the gubbins of efficient EVs is costly on top of a car that is bargain price, but actually fine as a even only car for a small family.

A Sandero is not that cheap now, and a Sandero Stepway is not. I have been looking at Petrol Automatics, new or nearly new,. They are better in and out for me than a Clio. It is a car to replace the Suzuki SX4 i want. Reliable petrol automatic, economic. It might be a Suzuki Swift i get.

10 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

Insurance prices of EV,s are only going one way. The future might be bright but it is not going to be because of the reducing costs of running an EV for those without Home or Work charging. @lol-lol Have you got good prices on your EV,s insurance, social domestic & business use?

Think the R5 is more than the Scenic because I have the son on it. It went down from the ZE50 Zoe, 135 hp, to the 120 hp R5 even though the R5 is just as quick accelerating and handles so much better, think it is a bit less than £600 but son still in his twenties so adds a bit. His Mini insurance is lower with me on it then without. He's insurance went down massively going from the 145 hp to the 182 hp Mini Cooper E. Many factors at play here. Insurance went up big time after Covid and then reigned in earlier this year thankfully.

The Scenic is in the low four hundreds I think with just ne on it. A few groups less than the more common 220 hp Scenic as mine is "only" 170 hp but it is actually almost as quick as torque is quite close and mine is lighter.

I have got hit with higher cost as j was paying monthly and therefore interest as I choose to put more in to pension that pay outright for xar insurance. This year coming I will just pay the insurance outright upon renewal and save all that interest cost.

Worcestershire is on tge low side for insurance loading compared to many places abd my mileage has come right down ie 8k for R5 and 10k for Scenic compared to 25k when j was rushing around trying to prepare companies for BREXIT.

Sure my insurance will be less in 2026 due to things like paying all upfront. With LV and the seem to give us public servants and ex public servants along with Boundless ie was CSMA, and been pleased with the except for the post Covid spike but it seems to less this year than was year before. Not heard of it spiking again.

12 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

A Sandero is not that cheap now, and a Sandero Stepway is not. I have been looking at Petrol Automatics, new or nearly new,. They are better in and out for me than a Clio. It is a car to replace the Suzuki SX4 i want. Reliable petrol automatic, economic. It might be a Suzuki Swift i get.

Suspect i would not get a decent discount compared to the big discount I can get off some Renaults.

Be interesting to see what the Sandero and Stepway retail for in Euros in mainland Euro.

Manufacturers tend to put in quite a margin to sell in to the UK. I heard 6% premium for making RHD cars and then a margin to deal with Euro to Pound fluctuations. Euro has been getting stronger against the pound and so margins squeezed and dealers don't like to constantly tweak UK prices, down or up, to track tgd cost of making the cars in Euros. That said one can see more discount being offered or peachy finance deals.

The prices of the Spring have been crazy low, £11k or less for a new one nmbut having driven one i am not surprised. I thought there were no bad cars anymore until I drove that.

New Spring out soon which should be much better and it needs to be.

Edited 9 December, 20259 Dec by lol-lol

1 hour ago, Evolution13 said:

A Sandero is not that cheap now, and a Sandero Stepway is not. I have been looking at Petrol Automatics, new or nearly new,. They are better in and out for me than a Clio. It is a car to replace the Suzuki SX4 i want. Reliable petrol automatic, economic. It might be a Suzuki Swift i get.

Worth remembering that inflation rose 76% during the Con-Lib and Con 14 year reign. A £1 in 2010 was only worth 57p by 2024 !

All relative, except Junior Doctors pay and some other stuff. A Renault 5 for well under £20k, or a Micra, sounds good value to me. Paid £5.8k for a Campus R5 in about 1990 I recall.

38 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Worth remembering that inflation rose 76% during the Con-Lib and Con 14 year reign. A £1 in 2010 was only worth 57p by 2024 !

All relative, except Junior Doctors pay and some other stuff. A Renault 5 for well under £20k, or a Micra, sounds good value to me. Paid £5.8k for a Campus R5 in about 1990 I recall.

While you may be right about the inflation, equally it's true that for most people their pay was either frozen, or any pay increase was kept extremely low, well below the actual inflation figure, which actually meant that they had a year-on-year pay cut and were effectively paying their bosses for the privilege of keeping their jobs and seeing their living standards fall every year. I remember during that period being on reduced salary but expected to work longer hours, while the factory workers were on a 4-day week. During that period my bosses purchased a million £+ mansion and grounds and also bought a new factory unit and went on extended expensive holiday cruises.

Millions were on what is called zero-hour contracts and just 6 or so guaranteed hours-a-week contracts, such as Sports Direct: 90% of staff on zero-hour contracts | Frasers Group | The Guardian

This was just one such business, and similar practices are still happening even today. I have 2 sons in their 40s working for the same company but in different sections of it and still on minimum wage and another son working in the retail sector, where many shops are operating something like 6- or 12-hour contracts and yet nothing seems to be done to ban such practices.

Edited 9 December, 20259 Dec by Graham Butcher

4 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

While you may be right about the inflation, equally it's true that for most people their pay was either frozen, or any pay increase was kept extremely low, well below the actual inflation figure, which actually meant that they had a year-on-year pay cut and were effectively paying their bosses for the privilege of keeping their jobs and seeing their living standards fall every year. I remember during that period being on reduced salary but expected to work longer hours, while the factory workers were on a 4-day week. During that period my bosses purchased a million £+ mansion and grounds and also bought a new factory unit and went on extended expensive holiday cruises.

Millions were on what is called zero-hour contracts and just 6 or so guaranteed hours-a-week contracts, such as Sports Direct: 90% of staff on zero-hour contracts | Frasers Group | The Guardian

This was just one such business, and similar practices are still happening even today. I have 2 sons in their 40s working for the same company but in different sections of it and still on minimum wage and another son working in the retail sector, where many shops are operating something like 6- or 12-hour contracts and yet nothing seems to be done to ban such practices.

Employments Right Bill in its Final Stages. https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3737#timeline

Along with hike in minimum wage should help.

I have always joined the Trade Union at work if there is one.

More recently the companies I have worked for have Workers Councils but I am not so impressed as to how they work. Very big companies like mine try a demonstrate good working conditions as a matter of showing corporate responsibility.

This as well as a bewildering amount of facilitation such as car schemes and pension savings though many of the base wages are kept on the low side by such cut throat competition in logistics I find. Being a unusual specialist, I find, rather than a generalist, helps keep salaries higher but then one in a job it is a nightmare keep the salary up with inflation and only option then is to threaten to leave and if no movement then actually leave. Some jobs out there I am finding, part time and full time.

Edited 10 December, 202510 Dec by lol-lol

Not strictly EVs but it's a growing (problem?) in modern cars - touchscreens, bigger screens, more and more screens....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0_UpIgmjZk

Vorsprung durch technik. Hopefully VW are finally getting them selves sorted out and going for safety.

Yeah well, when you can't sort your software go back to old school manual tech that people want and is intuitive.

Maybe have lower priced Skoda & Seat models with more KISS stuff & keep the Style over Function for VW & Audi.

It is clear enough, the EU / Europe does not have enough materials for building the required number of Battery Electric Vehicles or the Electricity to build them or for drivers to charge them. But then the EU / Europe has not enough materials or energy to build ICE vehicles and has to Import the Oil to Refine or the fuels to power them. The EU / Europe lacks many resources that require importation. The Ukraine was & is required for manufacturing, materials and energy and Hungary & Slovakia are essential for Car manufacturing and cheap labour and the Energy Russia allowed in to these countries. Its all a bit difficult for Germany & Austria really. They need their neighbouring countries and others for manufacturing.

Edited 12 December, 202512 Dec by Evolution13

On 12/12/2025 at 08:54, Evolution13 said:

It is clear enough, the EU / Europe does not have enough materials for building the required number of Battery Electric Vehicles or the Electricity to build them or for drivers to charge them. But then the EU / Europe has not enough materials or energy to build ICE vehicles and has to Import the Oil to Refine or the fuels to power them. The EU / Europe lacks many resources that require importation. The Ukraine was & is required for manufacturing, materials and energy and Hungary & Slovakia are essential for Car manufacturing and cheap labour and the Energy Russia allowed in to these countries. Its all a bit difficult for Germany & Austria really. They need their neighbouring countries and others for manufacturing.

Places like Cornwall have lots of the minerals needed and Sweden is opening up new mines in the far North and as long as they do not disturb any Trolls should be OK.

Renault has imported LG Chem lithium batteries up until now and is starting to pivot towards LFP chem. The Lithium has come from Australian, Canada, Chile and several other countries and sometimes from China but that is the danger relying on China and giving them near monopoly status and therefore some companies have deliberate policies not to get more than a certain percentage from any particular sources. Renault are doing much more of the battery pack building in France hence some cars are qualifying for the larger £3,750 UK Grant EV (damn I only got the £1500 EV grant but I did get other discount as well bringing it down to just over £21k). £4B Tata factor in Somerset will be operational later next year, 2026, barring delays.

Norway, also the home of Trolls is keeping it's Lithium & cobalt for future generations. Cornwall just needs to be getting on with it then. Or maybe a better idea is waiting until the value is much higher.

6 hours ago, Evolution13 said:

Norway, also the home of Trolls is keeping it's Lithium & cobalt for future generations. Cornwall just needs to be getting on with it then. Or maybe a better idea is waiting until the value is much higher.

I gather France is actually making the batteries itself now as well as the battery packs and need to check if Nissan is doing this in Sunderland and I presume BMW would be doing this at the Liepzig plant to qualifying for the UK higher grant amount of £3750.

The cost of the 3 motor A390 looks like it is going to be pricey as will be the electric A110 even in rear wheel drive only version, might squeeze under £50k Expensive Car Supplement.

Renault making the all Electric Ford badged Fiesta would get the full grant £3750 like the R5, A290 and Micra are getting / going to get. Try and find where Renault is getting its lithium but if more of these batteries are LFP rather than Lithium NMC you don't need as much lithium and iron and phosphate are cheap and plentiful.

There needs to be more that 10 times as many built and on the roads be that by 2035 or 2040 & there is the issue that the vehicle manufacturers are very much aware of. That and people wanting to own them.