3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

What has happened at Amazon with their big electrification plan for the last-mile delivery vans? There was a time when I was actually seeing this taking place, but now it seems that they are using diesel-powered vans in that role. I keep on getting more deliveries by Amazon and all in diesel vans, and I also have seen many other diesel-powered Amazon vans around Essex.

Have not seen any recent updates date with Anazon but mulyblad works for one of the other big parcel operators.

They are developing optimal tactics and they face similar issues with thd more remote areas and electric vehicles. In urban areas the EVs are clear winners increasingly on cost with diesel prices going thru the roof. The tri county area here, Gloucestershire, Herefordshire and Worcestershire have some remote places to deliver too.

Not so bad in summer but the challenge comes more so in winter time. With ranges on the EVs lower the ICE vehicles have advantage with all the waste heat they produce where EVs ecen with heat pumps have significant range reduction and running costs narrow but eith vastly elevated diesel cost the numbers need to be re run.

My lads company will open up intermediate depots during the winter months. The reason I suspect are several and the busier times with Nov, Dec, Jan sales as well as travelling issues are all factors.

But as above each year the EV vans are getting 10 to 20% better range but also cheaper whereas ICE vehicles seem to have pretty much flattened in their performance though i am trying to read up on the next generation of hybrids but the jury seems to be out on just how good they are compared to full BEVs.

Ever seen a Tesla Roadster? Well, there is one here that is in quite a bad way, but it seems is in safe hands if he can get the parts. Tesla has none, apparently. This should be a good one to follow progress on.

51 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Is that what a reliable source is saying about the ferries range?

Like most electric vehicles its performance could be much less in the winter than summer unless they have a batteries condition routine in the winter time to get the batterues in tge optimum temperature like we do with our EV cars that have battery preconditioning.

Oil driven ships gave RAS, replacement at sea, military vessel ms oftvhave woeful ranges compared to merchant vessels.

Good thing about Electric vehicles in the battery tech, energy density ans lower costs are heading up for density and down for costs by about 10 to 20% per year so any shortage in performance in the battery pack could be addressed quite quickly. It is not like marjne diesel engines which are generally in for the life of the vessel and scrapped with the vessel.

Yes, it did come from a pretty good and reliable source. When I have a bit more time on my hands, I'll see if I can find it again.

Regarding range, with a diesel-powered ship, there are ways to refuel them while at sea. The navy do it all the time at certain locations where their ships cannot afford to be off station for any time in order to protect other shipping in some of the world's hot spots. Not just refuel, but restock the ships' larders with food and drink and other essential items. Somehow, I really doubt that it would be possible to effectively recharge an electric ship in the same manner as they would to be connected for such a long period while generators supply energy that it would be far too dangerous to do.

54 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Have not seen any recent updates date with Anazon but mulyblad works for one of the other big parcel operators.

They are developing optimal tactics and they face similar issues with thd more remote areas and electric vehicles. In urban areas the EVs are clear winners increasingly on cost with diesel prices going thru the roof. The tri county area here, Gloucestershire, Herefordshire and Worcestershire have some remote places to deliver too.

Not so bad in summer but the challenge comes more so in winter time. With ranges on the EVs lower the ICE vehicles have advantage with all the waste heat they produce where EVs ecen with heat pumps have significant range reduction and running costs narrow but eith vastly elevated diesel cost the numbers need to be re run.

My lads company will open up intermediate depots during the winter months. The reason I suspect are several and the busier times with Nov, Dec, Jan sales as well as travelling issues are all factors.

But as above each year the EV vans are getting 10 to 20% better range but also cheaper whereas ICE vehicles seem to have pretty much flattened in their performance though i am trying to read up on the next generation of hybrids but the jury seems to be out on just how good they are compared to full BEVs.

Well, I'm only 30 miles away from their distribution depot and one of their warehouses in Tilbury, and increasingly my stuff arrives via diesel-powered Mercedes vans.

28 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes, it did come from a pretty good and reliable source. When I have a bit more time on my hands, I'll see if I can find it again.

Regarding range, with a diesel-powered ship, there are ways to refuel them while at sea. The navy do it all the time at certain locations where their ships cannot afford to be off station for any time in order to protect other shipping in some of the world's hot spots. Not just refuel, but restock the ships' larders with food and drink and other essential items. Somehow, I really doubt that it would be possible to effectively recharge an electric ship in the same manner as they would to be connected for such a long period while generators supply energy that it would be far too dangerous to do.

Been on quite a few RFA boats and they were trained with us doing tge standard merchant navy engineering and navigation 4 year training.

Fuel transfer seemed to be mainly kerosene ie Av Gas for the gas turbines Royal Navy ships and they can go thru their safe level of fuel in a few days where the diesel vessels can usually go several weeks on their onboard fuel such is their efficiency of fuel use.

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

Been on quite a few RFA boats and they were trained with us doing tge standard merchant navy engineering and navigation 4 year training.

Fuel transfer seemed to be mainly kerosene ie Av Gas for the gas turbines Royal Navy ships and they can go thru their safe level of fuel in a few days where the diesel vessels can usually go several weeks on their onboard fuel such is their efficiency of fuel use.

This video shows it all.

The UK version of military fleet support.

9 hours ago, lol-lol said:

The UK version of military fleet support.

We really do need to up our game or we will be in deep trouble.

Volkswagon have just released details of their concept electric car, claimed to do 8.27 miles per kWh.

This is based on their other concept car the XLintroduced back in 2009 and then the diesel powered 1 litre plug in electric, an early PHEV XL1 which was put on sale in 2015 in Europe only with electric range of 50km but the diesel engine delivered 100km on just 1 litre of diesel.

This clearly demonstrates that the diesel-powered cars could be far more efficient and cleaner than they are today and help climate change.

Volkswagen unveils the 'world's most efficient electric car' but you can't buy it

Vorsprung Durch Technik. or Das Auto. Good Tag lines but really for VW Group the slogan should be 'Just do it'. Because they spin stories for years, £17,000 EV,s etc and never get to there. If the can build light and efficient and reliable as in properly designed without fundamental issues or just snagging faults do it. But it seems now if they are going to it needs the assistance from China.

3 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Volkswagon have just released details of their concept electric car, claimed to do 8.27 miles per kWh.

This is based on their other concept car the XLintroduced back in 2009 and then the diesel powered 1 litre plug in electric, an early PHEV XL1 which was put on sale in 2015 in Europe only with electric range of 50km but the diesel engine delivered 100km on just 1 litre of diesel.

This clearly demonstrates that the diesel-powered cars could be far more efficient and cleaner than they are today and help climate change.

Volkswagen unveils the 'world's most efficient electric car' but you can't buy it

Diesel cars are only about 50% efficient at converting the energy in the fuel in to motion, at best.

EV are over 90% at doing this.

Energy density of hydrocarbon fuel is high but EV batteries are improving at a very fast rate, they were about 200 Wh/Kg but that has about doubled in the last few years and looking like doubling again plus rapidly falling cost.

Diesel is going to be as dead as the Dodo soon. What was it about 4% new car sales according to the SMMT last month. A small blip upwards as buyers realize that diesel models are soon to be be discontinued so some die hards bought their land rovers etc before the model production is stopped to be replaced by electric versions.

As well as the cars themselves there is increasing chatter that even the availability of diesel is going to be a problem in the weeks, months and years ahead with Trump pleading with Ukraine to stop bombing Russian oil and gas plants because of the world wide shortage shortage of diesel fuel.

Diesel power vehicles could be even more efficient with more use of hybrid tech, heat pumps etc but they are already expensive, heavy etc and adding more tech will make them even more expensive whereas EV are much simpler and therefore cheaper especially as we have moved on from NMC chemistry to LMP, Na and solid state.

How soon are diesel passenger cars really going to be banned from being first registered in the UK, EU or Rest of the World? When will be the current date given next be rowed back on? Russian Oil and Fuels were supposed to be sanctioned anyway and the USA were seizing ghost ships, even taking them into UK waters / ports. DONALD TRUMP was talking nonsense yesterday as usual. Diesel is produced during the cracking process and before you get to lighter products like gasoline and uses less energy to produce.

Edited 6 hours ago6 hr by Evolution13

3 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

How soon are diesel passenger cars really going to be banned from being first registered in the UK, EU or Rest of the World? When will be the current date given next be rowed back on? Russian Oil and Fuels were supposed to be sanctioned anyway and the USA were seizing ghost ships, even taking them into UK waters / ports.

They don't need to be banned as they will / are simply becoming uneconomical and add to that an increasing availability problem with diesel those such elements will / are sealing the fate of diesels first and then petrol cars. Shadow fleet is massive and that does not include the huge amount that China, India buy and then refine. We will see what Venezuela actually manages to put on the market.

If users want to pay a huge amount to buy a diesel ie the German marques, Land Rover and one can understand some of the logic ie driving on German Autobahns and farm /estate work but EVs are even encroaching on that territory but it has not been a priority over mass market sales and looking at the mass job reductions at German marques and JLR it is looking at the right choice even though the Chinese market, biggest in the world, is just about saturated with EVs now so they are gearing for more exporting.

AI response on Shadow Fleet. (Venezuela now OK presumably)

---

The global shadow fleet—comprising opaque, aging, and often uninsured tankers used to circumvent Western sanctions on oil from Russia, Iran, and Venezuela—is estimated to number between 1,300 and 1,500 vessels. [1, 2]

Size and Capacity

• Total Ships: Analysts and monitoring groups like TankerTrackers.com estimate the active dark or shadow fleet totals roughly 1,468 to 1,529 vessels. [1, 2]

• Global Share: This armada accounts for roughly one-fifth (18.5% to 20%) of all global oil tanker capacity. [1, 2, 3]

• Carrying Capacity: Combined carrying capacity exceeds 200 million deadweight tonnes (dwt). [1]

• Trade Volume: These ships move an estimated 65% to 70% of Russia's seaborne oil exports, alongside sanctioned shipments from other nations. [1, 2, 3]

  ---

Refining, that is the thing. Refined petrochemicals from Russia. Lots, Oil exported to others to refine, lots. Venezuelan Oil imported to the USA to refine, not the refining capacity yet in the USA and not in Venezuela. Why is the diesel price so high in the USA? The Donald has lost control, but then never had any! No refining in Scotland and less in the RoUK, and yet today there is guff on 100 licenses that could have North Sea oil providing half the UK,s oil and gas needs. Well there is 'The market', & then lack of refining in the UK. Its all balls, buffets and banquettes and loads of talking rubbish. How much energy is used to produce diesel or petrol from Venezuelan oil compared to Brent Crude or West Texas Intermediate, (WTI)? Light sweet crude oil.

Edited 5 hours ago5 hr by Evolution13

19 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

Refining, that is the thing. Refined petrochemicals from Russia. Lots, Oil exported to others to refine, lots. Venezuelan Oil imported to the USA to refine, not the refining capacity yet in the USA and not in Venezuela. Why is the diesel price so high in the USA? The Donald has lost control, but then never had any! No refining in Scotland and less in the RoUK, and yet today there is guff on 100 licenses that could have North Sea oil providing half the UK,s oil and gas needs. Well there is 'The market', & then lack of refining in the UK. Its all balls, buffets and banquettes and loads of talking rubbish.

The UK government has created much of the current position and should be jumping through hoops to remedy the situation, but they aren't. Form your own opinions on why that is.

This video explains the very points you raised above.

^^^ Aluminium smelting. "This Country", he must mean England. Alvance British Aluminium Ltd. Fort William. Uses Hydro Power. Limits what it produces to the times of low cost electricity so Production is at 70%. High energy cost is what limits boosting production. According to MD Tom Uppington on BBC 5 live 'Wake up to money' 31/7/2026.

Edited 4 hours ago4 hr by Evolution13

25 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

Refining, that is the thing. Refined petrochemicals from Russia. Lots, Oil exported to others to refine, lots. Venezuelan Oil imported to the USA to refine, not the refining capacity yet in the USA and not in Venezuela. Why is the diesel price so high in the USA? The Donald has lost control, but then never had any! No refining in Scotland and less in the RoUK, and yet today there is guff on 100 licenses that could have North Sea oil providing half the UK,s oil and gas needs. Well there is 'The market', & then lack of refining in the UK. Its all balls, buffets and banquettes and loads of talking rubbish. How much energy is used to produce diesel or petrol from Venezuelan oil compared to Brent Crude or West Texas Intermediate, (WTI)? Light sweet crude oil.

Many forget that the individual states do their own taxation in addition to Federal taxes hence Californian prices far higher than many of the Red Neck states.

Gather diesel is over $7 for 4 litres in Calfornia but then they really want people to go electric hence their financial support.

Texas is an interesting state as it biulds to probably overtake California one day. California $4.3T, Texas $3T GDP.

Trump cannot do a lot as Excise is only 24 cents per 4 litres, 6 cents per litre but Trump would not want to cut that tax as the Federal accounts are in such a bad place and help out individual states with their General Sales Tax collection. Screwed.

29 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

The UK government has created much of the current position and should be jumping through hoops to remedy the situation, but they aren't. Form your own opinions on why that is.

This video explains the very points you raised above.

Yes, I think you are right, but it is still a pretty damning situation of the UK in its big net zero push. All it is really doing is moving that pollution somewhere else, thus making pollution worse for someone else, while making living conditions far worse for British citizens as a result.

10 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes, I think you are right, but it is still a pretty damning situation of the UK in its big net zero push. All it is really doing is moving that pollution somewhere else, thus making pollution worse for someone else, while making living conditions far worse for British citizens as a result.

46 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

The UK government has created much of the current position and should be jumping through hoops to remedy the situation, but they aren't. Form your own opinions on why that is. This video explains the very points you raised above.

Steel is a declining material with aluminium and composites on the up.

Energy we all agree is an area that needs addressing and the UK has been slow to bring more nuclear, solar, tidal and wind online and we are paying the price for that due the failure of previous UK governments to get things built so UK industry can benefit from UK made electricity rather than buying in Middle East gas and oil.

Things are getting sorted with numerous 1 GW wind farms coming on line, more battery storage, tidal ie 5 GW Severn estuary, the Great Glen hydro storage 9 GWh. I notice several bits of my Renaults are plastic panels when I thought they might be steel and there is a huge use of recycled material inside too. France got sorted with its nuclear power ie nearly 50 sites and hence electricity much cheap in France. Hinkley Point and Sizewell should be enough with their 6 GWs as well as the extended other nuclear sites and added to solar, tidal and wind, with lots of BESS we should be in a good place in the next few years just shame we did not start these projects sooner. Add to this the massive adoption by individuals which will release Grid capacity to industry as individuals become more self sufficient for their home use as well as charging their EVs from their own solar generation and battery storage.

But where does plastic, etc., come from? Oil of course and is one of the smaller extractions from a barrel of crude, so what are we to do with the rest of the extracts such as petrol, diesel etc, Return to the days of dumping them just as they did with diesel before the diesel engine was invented? Apparently diesel engines are more thermally efficient than petrol ones.

The History And Origin Of Diesel Fuel – Kendrick Oil

Diesel engine - Wikipedia

Edited 2 minutes ago2 min by Graham Butcher

2 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

But where does plastic, etc., come from? Oil of course and is one of the smaller extractions from a barrel of crude, so what are we to do with the rest of the extracts such as petrol, diesel etc, Return to the days of dumping them just as they did with diesel before the diesel engine was invented?

Once plastic cracked out then diesel etc will still been need in maritime and very cold climates abd where the pollution they create is not affecting population centres.

We will need hydrocarbons for backup generators occasional use when we get a perfect storm of low sun and wind which is why we need more tidal which is the most reliable after nuclear energies normal operation of providing the 22 GW or so the UK needs.

Isn't that perfect storm likely to be one where the planet is awash with these hydrocarbons? Martime uses will never be able to use that amount of diesel, especially when many people/bodies/governments are all pushing for more and more electric transport, which also includes shipping and flights?

7 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Isn't that perfect storm likely to be one where the planet is awash with these hydrocarbons? Martime uses will never be able to use that amount of diesel, especially when many people/bodies/governments are all pushing for more and more electric transport, which also includes shipping and flights?

Maritime is a tough one in that we would sail for a month some times without refuelling and then if somewhere not cheap we would only bunker half fuel to await docking at somewhere with cheap fuel, use to be the Persian Gulf but go in there are you may not be able to get out for months.

Whilst the main engine is diesel strictly speaking we are not burning diesel fuel as most know it. We burn Residual fuel in a massive diesel engine with bores of circa 1m and strokes of 2m or so. The fuel is thd crap left when all thd good stuff, kerosene, petrol and normal diesel has been removed. It's thickness is so bad it is closer to water in Specefic Gravity than normal diesel. We have to heat it to 100 C just to pump it and we centrifuge it ourselves to remove some nasties then we feed it to the injectors which are also tens of times bigger than car ones.

At least the oil industry has somewhere to send this crap fuel but even the CMA, Maersk, MSC etc are trying to get away from diesel and move to LNG but we will also probably see nuclear powered merchant ships coming along soon in numbers. My apprenticeship in marine engineering covered diesel and steam, including super heated steam we would make from the main diesel engine exhaust stack, most efficient ICE on the planet bar none I understand ie well over 50% thermal efficient abd running on crap that cost $100 a tonne. Did not really expect to see nuclear become mainstream in merchant navies.

Around the generator set than ran off the super heated steam from the diesel exhaust were lines or daisy chained paper figures which might indicate a super heated steam leak which you would not see as you can only see steam once it starts to condensate.

Also banned was whistling ad that was the other clue to super heated steam leak. That coukd earn you a spanner, large one, whacking you on the nack of your head.

Strategic reserves are at an all time low so even if Middle East Gulf resumed output in a few months the reserves need refilling so diesel and petrol prices are not coming down until well into next year at the earliest.

I predict that the UK government will reduce the Excise tax from 52.95p per litre by about 4.2 p per litre so it should come down by about 5p a litre but as we know oil companies, and energy companies, just appear to soak up any reductions and add it to their profits !!!

I think I have come across that type of diesel fuel before, is it almost like treacle, black and really thick. The boilers at the bus station where I did my training had 2 boilers which used fuel like that and stank horribly. Each boiler had a preheat chamber (electrical) to heat and thus thin the fuel so that it could be pumped into the burner and ignited.

Back in the 60s and 70s, when the UK was experiencing massive power cuts, we had to hire a couple of diesel-powered generators from a showman (mobile fair ground operator). One big one to power strings of 110V lamps we had to string everywhere for public safety, etc., and a smaller one just to mainly operate the boilers and the preheaters in order to provide adequate heating. The fuel tank for the boilers was underground at one level, and the boilers themselves were at an even lower level in order for this treacle-like fuel to exit the road tankers and also to flow from the storage tank to the boilers, where the heaters were laid out on the floor in front of the boilers.