By now, we all know that a lithium battery fire is pretty damn difficult to extinguish. Sadly I read more and more about Teslas etc involved in accidents catching fire and sometimes incinerating the occupants.

 

This news item caught my eye and set me wondering about the safety of areas where large numbers of battery cars might be parked close together in the future.

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/container-ship-carrying-volkswagen-vehicles-catches-fire-near-azores-2022-02-18/

 

an expensive accident!

Very sad if there are more and more deaths by fire in Tesla or other EV's in accidents. 

 

There will be figures someplace for how many Tesla's there have been on fire in the UK & the RoW and how many fatalities where fires were ignited in those accidents.

There does not appear to be that many Tesla fires showing in the USA up to 2020 but maybe there are growing numbers & people incinerated.  

https://insideevs.com/news/501729/number-tesla-fires-2020

 

e-scooter / e-bikes charging in homes are going to cause fires even more in homes than they are now.

Deaths possibly.

 

Very hard to know where the truth lies or where there are Social Media and Media scare stories.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 19 February, 20224 yr by roottoot

2 hours ago, xman said:

the safety of areas where large numbers of battery cars might be parked close together

Petrol is also highly flammable. Hydrogen more so. Yet, it is deemed safe that they being allowed to be parked close together.

 

No EV in-sight:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/u-k-parking-garage-fire-destroys-1400-cars/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab7e&linkId=46472057

Petrol fires are not easy but not hard to put out. Injection and fuel cut off etc has helped reduce numbers.  Diesel is pretty safe really, but brake fluid on the other hand…

 

Hydrogen will generally float away before it goes bang, although if it does go up  it’ll certainly be noticeable.

 

EV lithium batteries have the issue that they’re hard to put out and once out other cells damaged by the initial fire may go up at any time.

 

If there is tech developed that will put out a lithium fire and keep it out great. Otherwise something will be needed to segregate batteries so only small parts get damaged.

 

 

There will of course be some fake news in there but also some truth. As with ICE cars, standards and tests will need to be developed.

The cars are on the roads now so the Fire & Rescue and Emergency Services in the UK already need to know what they will be doing if there are lithium battery fires.

I imagine they know what the latest procedures are. 

 

Likely it is not to bring in a skip filled with H20 and a telehandler or zoom boom to lift the vehicle into.

 

Lithium Batteries are out there on the roads in HGV's being transported to wherever when ever, on trains and ships so the hazard and risks will be well known and the specialist training must have been given. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 21 February, 20224 yr by roottoot

 The short history of lithium batteries is plagued with combustion incidents:

 Boeing Dreamliner, Samsung mobile phones, "hoverboards", domestic storage systems (causing house fires), cars etc etc.

When the Musk supplied "then largest battery in the world" in South Australia was first turned on because of a local power failure there were several battery explosions, which were fortunately contained. Of course this was not publicly known and I only learnt about it from the  guys who worked on the project. Admittedly there were probably quite a few shortcuts due to the built in 90 days or your money back contract conditions. The system has now been bedded in.

 

BYD's Lithium Ferrous blade batteries claim to have fixed a lot of the combustion issues. Their cars are now just being offered here

Ultimately I think that there will be alternate chemistries such as sodium ion offering better safety, even at the price of some energy density.

3 hours ago, roottoot said:

The cars are on the roads now so the Fire & Rescue and Emergency Services in the UK already need to know what they will be doing if there are lithium battery fires.

I imagine they know what the latest procedures are. 

 

Likely it is not to bring in a skip filled with H20 and a telehandler or zoom boom to lift the vehicle into.

 

Lithium Batteries are out there on the roads in HGV's being transported to wherever when ever, on trains and ships so the hazard and risks will be well known and the specialist training must have been given. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shipping a known good lithium ion battery is easy, but try shipping faulty ones back. I have experience of this over years in IT both trying to get faulty ones back from customers to test and sending them back.

 

Problem is it’s the faulty packs that people don’t want to touch as it’s too unpredictable.

 

I would imagine a dry powder/foam based system could be build into the battery trays in the future to  keep oxygen out. Water on the other hand… no thanks 😂😂

Edited 21 February, 20224 yr by cheezemonkhai

Thankfully plenty smart people who are in the business of research, production, repairs, recycling and transportation will be giving it a lot on their time and consideration. 

https://bbc.com/future/article/20220105-lithium-batteries-big-unanswered-question

 

 

 

Just as a side point, petrol cars used to run carbs and have rear fill fuel tanks which were in the boot.

A few years later rear fill goes, then the tank goes under the rear seats to protect it and carbs go and are replaced with injectors with safety systems.

 

I'm not suggesting batteries in their current state are good and certainly I'm not super happy with them. I'd like to see home storage coming from other safer systems and yes I'd like a fuel cell car. However we shouldn't forget that petrol cars were worse and now they're much safer. Generation 3 of EV might well learn a lot from Gen2, which learnt a lot from Gen1 and the protoypes.

 

Wether it's battery, fuel cell or something completely different, new cars won't be powered by petrol or diesel from 2030 onwards.

Volkswagen / Porsche had the engine behind you and the fuel tank in front as some others did. 

1 minute ago, roottoot said:

Volkswagen / Porsche had the engine behind you and the fuel tank in front as some others did. 

 

That too

One problem that Lithium batteries have that petrol or other fuels don't is they can suffer thermal runaway and spontaneously explode/combust.

 

If discharged too deeply, if overcharged, if damaged or just poorly made as in the case of Samsung Note 7. Or as happened with early Dreamliners

 

Maybe its safer if you Don't park next to a Tesla?

Certainly do not sleep in your EV while charging or next to one,

or maybe just carry on if you do as so far in the UK the risk of cremation in the UK in an EV seems pretty low. 

 

https://autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/how-much-fire-risk-are-electric-vehicles

 

Edited 21 February, 20224 yr by roottoot

4 hours ago, xman said:

One problem that Lithium batteries have that petrol or other fuels don't is they can suffer thermal runaway and spontaneously explode/combust.

 

If discharged too deeply, if overcharged, if damaged or just poorly made as in the case of Samsung Note 7. Or as happened with early Dreamliners

 

Maybe its safer if you Don't park next to a Tesla?

One problem with petrol is that it's highly flammable, doesn't matter if it's in a fuel tank or if it's in somewhere it shouldn't, it will combust.

 

Combust violently I might add, 50 firefighters needed: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-53785119

The highly flammable liquid is also problematic when it is in the hands of morons: https://www.whiskeyriff.com/2021/05/13/government-warns-not-to-fill-plastic-bags-with-gasoline-because-people-are-idiots/

 

 

Li-on battery isn't the best solution long-term, but it's currently the best solution. Whatever the solution, we must end combusting/burning stuff ASAP.

Just imagine what the emergency services are dealing with when they come across a petrol hybrid on fire.  

Just as well that BMW & Ford were right in there with global recalls when aware of the possible dodgy ones.

On 21/02/2022 at 16:02, xman said:

One problem that Lithium batteries have that petrol or other fuels don't is they can suffer thermal runaway and spontaneously explode/combust.

I beg to differ, a tank of petrol which isn't perfectly sealed, will quite definely explode.

Ditto for LPG and CNG (use in some cars) or gas cylinders for a BBQ/caravan. No loss on the caravan IMHO mind.

 

Not saying NMC batteries are fantastic, but LFP are a fair bit less bad if they do go.

They're both Lithium-Ion batteries not Lithium metal batteries mind.

 

On 21/02/2022 at 16:02, xman said:

If discharged too deeply, if overcharged, if damaged or just poorly made as in the case of Samsung Note 7. Or as happened with early Dreamliners

 

All batteries that are properly made have a battery management system. This is particularly so in cars and battery solar storage systems.

A BMS does exactly that and stops the batteries from being over discharged or overcharged as it manages the charging process and monitors the cells too.

 

The samsung node was actually due to the phone case not giving the battery enough room to expand/contract resulting in physical damage. I think the same might be true re the dreamliners. 

 

Physical/mechanical damage will cause problems in anything, although I will fully admit the batteries, particularly pouch ones are more vulnerable, particularly if badly designed. (Like say an old school petrol tank - they will improve/be replaced by new tech in time)

 

On 21/02/2022 at 16:02, xman said:

 

Maybe its safer if you Don't park next to a Tesla?

 

I mean if you want to play that game...

 

https://abcnews.go.com/Business/bmw-mystery-fires-abc-news-investigation/story?id=47335778

 

https://wsvn.com/news/local/miami-dade/car-catches-fire-inside-university-of-miami-parking-garage/

 

and

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 23 February, 20224 yr by cheezemonkhai