on a/b roads I tend to be little more weary

So you're happy to be more tired on A/B roads than on motorway or unclassified roads?

You should know that there are single carriageway Trunk roads, and indeed B and unclassified dual carriageways!

What would people's suggestions be in this situation:

I'm joining a dual carriageway and the slip road is off quite a sharp bend then onto a decentish length slip.

I see a car in my mirror and I'm already mathing their speed. Plenty of room in front and I start pulling ahead of them with room to pull out.

They then start accelerating and match my speed along side me. I have to then brake and almost come to a complete stop at the end of the slip road and then have to put my foot to the floor again to get out behind them.

It's in this situation I'm glad I have DSG now as in a manual car I woulnd't have been able to get going again so soon.

I thought he was a pillock but is there anything else I could have done to avoid?

The road was busy and the gap was the same infront and behind him. I also had a car following me onto the slip road.

Phil

What would people's suggestions be in this situation:

I'm joining a dual carriageway and the slip road is off quite a sharp bend then onto a decentish length slip.

I see a car in my mirror and I'm already mathing their speed. Plenty of room in front and I start pulling ahead of them with room to pull out.

They then start accelerating and match my speed along side me. I have to then brake and almost come to a complete stop at the end of the slip road and then have to put my foot to the floor again to get out behind them.

It's in this situation I'm glad I have DSG now as in a manual car I woulnd't have been able to get going again so soon.

I thought he was a pillock but is there anything else I could have done to avoid?

The road was busy and the gap was the same infront and behind him. I also had a car following me onto the slip road.

Phil

I've just been watching Roadcraft (IMO the DVD is better than the book), and what they advocate is taking a position on the outside of the sliproad for best visibility (both of other traffic and so they see you early), and merging decisively rather than drifting out slowly (ok, not if there's someone right alongside you).

Other than that, I wasn't there but maybe you should have given up on the drag race earlier?

So you're happy to be more tired on A/B roads than on motorway or unclassified roads?

You should know that there are single carriageway Trunk roads, and indeed B and unclassified dual carriageways!

Lol perhaps a better word is "cautious".

"single carriageway Trunk roads" - I was more referring to these (and b roads) when I said 'a/b roads', never knew the correct term .

Other than that, I wasn't there but maybe you should have given up on the drag race earlier?

I think you might be right with that one.

I probably should have eased off the first moment I realised that he was increasing his speed then I could have maintained at least some speed and slotted in behind him.

Ah well... always lessons to be learnt.

Lol perhaps a better word is "cautious".

"single carriageway Trunk roads" - I was more referring to these (and b roads) when I said 'a/b roads', never knew the correct term .

1) I was pulling your leg about the typo that gave "weary" instead of "wary".

2) All Trunk routes are A roads, but not all Trunks are dual carriageway (and indeed some A roads are single track).

And if you undertake advanced driver training they'll teach you to only indicate when there is someone to benefit from the signal, if you are overtaking a car and that is the only road user in sight then I would argue a signal isn't required at all as it is of no benefit to them whatsoever

Poor advice in my opinion, who are we to determine who is able to benefit from whether we can be arsed to indicate or not?

I for one do not have a full 360 degree angle of visibility when driving.

You therefore might not see the car ahead about to turn left out of a side road directly into the path of your overtake.

The flash of your indicator may just be enough for the other driver to tell you are about to overtake.

Not indicating is known to be one of the most annoying actions (after tailgating), so for the sake of everyone else, please put the effort in.

Poor advice in my opinion, who are we to determine who is able to benefit from whether we can be arsed to indicate or not?

I for one do not have a full 360 degree angle of visibility when driving.

You therefore might not see the car ahead about to turn left out of a side road directly into the path of your overtake.

The flash of your indicator may just be enough for the other driver to tell you are about to overtake.

Not indicating is known to be one of the most annoying actions (after tailgating), so for the sake of everyone else, please put the effort in.

Agreed.

When someone pulls out without indacting I usually say (in a sarcastic tone) "oh, you're pulling out are you?!"

Phil

You therefore might not see the car ahead about to turn left out of a side road directly into the path of your overtake.

The flash of your indicator may just be enough for the other driver to tell you are about to overtake.

So you're considering an overtake with a junction on the right ahead with a car in it (not sure that would be my choice, but it's the scenario we're working with...).

You are approaching said junction following a car. You put on your right indicator to signal your intention to overtake. What does the car sat in the junction think?

1. He is indicating right, he must be wanting to overtake and waits patiently

2. He is turning right into this junction, therefore I can proceed to turn left

3. Something else

Not indicating is known to be one of the most annoying actions (after tailgating), so for the sake of everyone else, please put the effort in.

Known by who? I would say that poor use of signals to indicate your intentions is seen as one of the most annoying and most people use them as "justifiers" rather than indicators. Is it more effort to look around and look for a reason not to signal or to just blindly put the indicator on and hope that your message is understood?

Chris

Edited 22 January, 201313 yr by ScoobyChris

I've just been watching Roadcraft (IMO the DVD is better than the book), and what they advocate is taking a position on the outside of the sliproad for best visibility (both of other traffic and so they see you early), and merging decisively rather than drifting out slowly (ok, not if there's someone right alongside you).

Other than that, I wasn't there but maybe you should have given up on the drag race earlier?

Sound advice. Essentially your indication is to let the person on the carriageway know that you'd like to join and you need to see what his response is before you can decide on your course of action. If his reaction is to speed up then you either have the option of doing likewise and trying to outdrag him into an ever-decreasing gap or ease off and slot in behind him (and then overtake him using lane 2)...

Chris

Sound advice. Essentially your indication is to let the person on the carriageway know that you'd like to join and you need to see what his response is before you can decide on your course of action. If his reaction is to speed up then you either have the option of doing likewise and trying to outdrag him into an ever-decreasing gap or ease off and slot in behind him (and then overtake him using lane 2)...

Chris

Spot on!

I guess he saw me indicating and decided to get ahead of me rather than keep his speed and leave the gap in front.

I should have then just decided to slot in behind.

Maybe I do need a remap after all... I would of managed to "out-drag" him with the extra power I reckon He was in a 2.0 TDI VW Touran so had more power.

Phil

Ofc this is just how I see it, seems logical to me but please share the wisdom if I'm somewhat on the wrong pattern of thought.

I've tried a few times to put together a decent reply, but unfortunately this sort of thing is much easier to work through in the car in the real world with examples that can be experienced/questioned/analysed etc. As you're only in the next county, if you're interested in seeing it in practice, I'm more than happy to meet up and go for a drive so we can compare notes/approaches...

Chris

So you're considering an overtake with a junction on the right ahead with a car in it (not sure that would be my choice, but it's the scenario we're working with...).

You are approaching said junction following a car. You put on your right indicator to signal your intention to overtake. What does the car sat in the junction think?

1. He is indicating right, he must be wanting to overtake and waits patiently

2. He is turning right into this junction, therefore I can proceed to turn left

3. Something else

Chris

4) He really should not be contemplating an overtake here, but I'd better hang back just in case. This really is a case of "better a minute late in this World than 40 years early in the next!"

I've tried a few times to put together a decent reply, but unfortunately this sort of thing is much easier to work through in the car in the real world with examples that can be experienced/questioned/analysed etc. As you're only in the next county, if you're interested in seeing it in practice, I'm more than happy to meet up and go for a drive so we can compare notes/approaches...

Chris

Thanks Chris, I would love to, however my current situation, I'm very much home bound or 'on the fly' (planning in hours rather than in weeks) :( I will definitely be interested and take you up on the offer when life has become little more stable... (Im actually based around sussex/surrey and essex so meeting up wouldn't be that much of an issue I think).

Though to be clear I understand the concept, concept is valid. Its more of the fact normal drivers pull out/overtake and doesn't signal it usually is unplanned. So as a driver on the receiving end of this maneuver Im more cautious to it when I don't see indicators, even if a concept is valid. Feel like im repeating myself for the sake it now, ha.

Lets role reversal, what would you think if someone indicated instead of not indicating while overtake/pulling out? Would you be more hesitant because they indicated? Would it affect you adversely? Confusion etc?

Spot on!

I guess he saw me indicating and decided to get ahead of me rather than keep his speed and leave the gap in front.

So the million dollar question ... would the outcome have been any different if you hadn't signalled (and drawn attention to yourself)?

Chris

So the million dollar question ... would the outcome have been any different if you hadn't signalled (and drawn attention to yourself)?

Chris

Well, if you want to play "what if", what if Phil hadn't signalled and met someone who gets their "fun" from boxing people who don't bother to signal when they're trying to merge onto a dual carriageway?

Thanks Chris, I would love to, however my current situation, I'm very much home bound or 'on the fly' (planning in hours rather than in weeks) :( I will definitely be interested and take you up on the offer when life has become little more stable... (Im actually based around sussex/surrey and essex so meeting up wouldn't be that much of an issue I think).

No worries - just give me a shout

Though to be clear I understand the concept, concept is valid. Its more of the fact normal drivers pull out/overtake and doesn't signal it usually is unplanned. So as a driver on the receiving end of this maneuver Im more cautious to it when I don't see indicators, even if a concept is valid. Feel like im repeating myself for the sake it now, ha.

I think the advantage of being in a real situation means you can talk through your exact thought process, perceptions and also experiment with the effect approaching situations differently has.

I'll not answer your question directly (as time is short ), but my own personal opinion is that it's easy to get zoned in on details and miss the bigger picture and (more) relevant information to the situation at hand. For example, how many times have you been following someone and known (or perhaps been 99% sure ) of what they're going to do before they even indicate to tell you their intentions. A common example of this is driving along a motorway where the car in the lane to your left is closing up on the car in front of them, but it's also true on single carriageway roads where the car's "chassis language" gives a lot of information away about the driver and also their intentions. There is also the context of where you're driving (time of day, road condition, weather, built up area, open countryside, etc), what you can see and does it fit with expectations?

Did I mention it's much easier to explain in a car

Chris

So you're considering an overtake with a junction on the right ahead with a car in it (not sure that would be my choice, but it's the scenario we're working with...).

You are approaching said junction following a car. You put on your right indicator to signal your intention to overtake. What does the car sat in the junction think?

1. He is indicating right, he must be wanting to overtake and waits patiently

2. He is turning right into this junction, therefore I can proceed to turn left

3. Something else

Known by who? I would say that poor use of signals to indicate your intentions is seen as one of the most annoying and most people use them as "justifiers" rather than indicators. Is it more effort to look around and look for a reason not to signal or to just blindly put the indicator on and hope that your message is understood?

Chris

All I am reading here are several justifications for not indicating?

In my example I assumed that the junction and the car were not visible. Seeing the indicator as you begin the overtake would alert him to you and he would then have to make a call on what he does next. Its unlikely a car overtaking another car would be mistaken for one slowing down to turn right. The approaching speed of both cars should be enough for him to make the right call.

Not indicating is well known to be one of the most annoying traits...

http://www.motoring.co.uk/car-news/motoring-co-uk-survey-finds-out-what-driving-habits-most-annoy-you_49167

It's only a little plastic stick 3 inchs away from your hand after all.

All I am reading here are several justifications for not indicating?

Yup - not signalling when there is no-one (or anyone who can be reasonably expected to appear) who will benefit.

In my example I assumed that the junction and the car were not visible. Seeing the indicator as you begin the overtake would alert him to you and he would then have to make a call on what he does next. Its unlikely a car overtaking another car would be mistaken for one slowing down to turn right. The approaching speed of both cars should be enough for him to make the right call.

I am still struggling with this. You've taken the decision to overtake in a dangerous place (poor visibility!) and you are then remaining committed to it and trusting a driver you know nothing about to make the right call. Do you think in that scenario an indicator will make any difference, although if you walk away from the accident I suppose you will be able to tell people it wasn't your fault as you had your indicator on?!

Not indicating is well known to be one of the most annoying traits...

http://www.motoring....annoy-you_49167

350 people?! Conclusive proof if ever I saw it Although based on the rest of the list I suspect it means "inconveniencing someone as a result of not signalling" rather than not noticing a car didn't signal because they weren't looking at it.

Chris

Yup - not signalling when there is no-one (or anyone who can be reasonably expected to appear) who will benefit.

How do you know there is no one who will benefit? Do you have full 360 visibility when driving?

Why not play it safe, be considerate and indicate?

Mobile phones, not indicating and tailgaiting are all well documented as being the most annoying driver habits. The poll I linked was one of many that found (unsuprisingly) those who think they don't need to indicate as being the most irritating.

So the million dollar question ... would the outcome have been any different if you hadn't signalled (and drawn attention to yourself)?

Chris

Haha.

I think in this situation no... I would always indicate though as it just gives someone all the more reason to not let you out "well, you weren't indicating so how was I meant to know what you were doing?!"

Also a question about driving with a DSG. I have dabbled in a bit of advanced driving techniques and drives and it always involved staying in the right gear (the gear that would give you most control for the speed and conditions etc) but in a DSG it changes up very early and using the aforementioned logic isn't always the "right" gear. Is this acceptable and just use the throttle to control the speed? Or would it be more advisable to click it across to manual?

Phil

How do you know there is no one who will benefit? Do you have full 360 visibility when driving?

This comes back to the fundamentals of how a signal should be used. A signal is showing your intent to do something (seeking co-operation if you like) and without a response or acknowledgement, how useful is the signal? Your scenario of the overtake is a good example of this. You are putting your indicator on in the hope that the chap about to pull out sees it. If you are in that position, isn't there a better way to communicate with that driver to make sure they know you are there?

Why not play it safe, be considerate and indicate?

I am not sure based on your overtake scenario, you are in a position accuse someone of being an unsafe or inconsiderate driver

Mobile phones, not indicating and tailgaiting are all well documented as being the most annoying driver habits. The poll I linked was one of many that found (unsuprisingly) those who think they don't need to indicate as being the most irritating.

At the end of the day it comes down to attitude - if you're driving around looking to be irritated by something you will be. Sit back, chill out and concentrate on your own driving. You can't change or control other people's driving and getting annoyed by it does nothing but send you to an early grave.

Chris

Well, if you want to play "what if", what if Phil hadn't signalled and met someone who gets their "fun" from boxing people who don't bother to signal when they're trying to merge onto a dual carriageway?

So best case is it's an improvement, worst case it's the same as if you'd indicated. Hmmm .... interesting

Chris

Also a question about driving with a DSG. I have dabbled in a bit of advanced driving techniques and drives and it always involved staying in the right gear (the gear that would give you most control for the speed and conditions etc) but in a DSG it changes up very early and using the aforementioned logic isn't always the "right" gear. Is this acceptable and just use the throttle to control the speed? Or would it be more advisable to click it across to manual?

I think the answer is the traditional "it depends". The important thing to remember is that you want to arrive at the hazard in the correct position on the road, at the correct speed and in the correct gear (where correct is probably within a range of acceptable values!) to negotiate the hazard. Where you're trundling along a wide stretch of road with few hazards, letting the gearbox decide on a gear using D sounds like a good option but where you come to hazards, imho, it's worth running through the System as if you were in a manual car and deciding if the gear the car has chosen is the best for the hazard and if not overriding it as part of a planned approach. It's also worth considering if the car will likely choose to change gear during the hazard which may make things interesting, for example, in a fast corner.

Whenever I drive an automatic, my tendency is to leave it in D for the majority of town/motorway driving, but on the fun twisty stuff, stick it in manual mode and hold onto lower gears for better control and performance. I also tend to avoid kickdown and override the gearbox whenever I want immediate performance.

Hope that's of some help - I think there was a thread on here about driving with DSG too which may have some nuggets of info from other people who more regularly drive DSG cars

Chris

A helpful reply as always.

That all seems to make sense to me.

I have already found myself sticking across into manual a couple of times when I wanted it to hold the current gear or know it down a couple of cogs for a decent down a hill etc.

Thanks

Phil