This comes back to the fundamentals of how a signal should be used. A signal is showing your intent to do something (seeking co-operation if you like) and without a response or acknowledgement, how useful is the signal?

So you are saying that the only reason you see fit to indicate is when a response or acknowledgement is required?

You are missing my point. From where you are sat you may not be aware of the need for a response or acknowledgement!

You can't change or control other people's driving and getting annoyed by it does nothing but send you to an early grave.

Just becuase you are chilled and you think you have the right attitude a fact of life is that not everyone is as perfect as you. By not bothering to indicate you may just irritate someone enough that you end up being at the wrong end of a road rage incident.

And all because you only indicate when you think someone else may benefit from it? Madness.

So you are saying that the only reason you see fit to indicate is when a response or acknowledgement is required?

You are missing my point. From where you are sat you may not be aware of the need for a response or acknowledgement!

No I didn't say that - I said that is the purpose of a signal. Where and when I signal is largely irrelevant to the discussion, but the DSA and advanced driving organisations expect a signal to be given where it is of direct benefit to another road user (including pedestrians) or where there is a reasonable chance someone may appear who will benefit from it.

Just becuase you are chilled and you think you have the right attitude a fact of life is that not everyone is as perfect as you. By not bothering to indicate you may just irritate someone enough that you end up being at the wrong end of a road rage incident.

And all because you only indicate when you think someone else may benefit from it? Madness.

I suspect they'd be more annoyed if I overtook them inappropriately and forced them to take evasive action to avoid me Me, I'll take my chances, but thanks for your concern

Chris

The driver joining the carriageway would have been at fault, though there's not much point in being right and in the armco in what was once a skoda.... or worse

This comes back to the fundamentals of how a signal should be used. A signal is showing your intent to do something (seeking co-operation if you like) and without a response or acknowledgement, how useful is the signal?

When another member suggested you should always indicate when joining a motorway you responded with...

According to who? What if there is no traffic around? What if the traffic will still be well behind you where you are joining?

How do you know that there is no other traffic around? The fact of the matter is you don't know for sure.

Just do us all a favour and indicate your intentions so we all know where you are intending to go.

Another member has already noted that when they see someone pulling out or turning without indicating it can be annoying.

Why do you choose to deliberately annoy other road users?

Ah, I was referring to a specific scenario I encounter often, and talking more about initial reactions but not slip road to m/way scenario.

I concur there is no need to signal when joining the m/way or dual carriage way if speed differential is significantly greater and theres ample room between one self and said driver.

As for reading drivers I often get a confused look by my passengers going "why ru moving out?", "because the car is going to want to overtake.......*pause*........ see?".

I tend to talk at traffic all the time when the mrs is in the car so she hopefully can pick up on the little things when shes driving. (we have very exciting conversations in the car..)

How do you know that there is no other traffic around? The fact of the matter is you don't know for sure.

I use my eyes. If there's no-one about I don't signal. If there's a doubt, I signal. Simples and has served me well over the years and not once have I had a bad reaction or someone not clear as to my intention.

Just do us all a favour and indicate your intentions so we all know where you are intending to go.

Another member has already noted that when they see someone pulling out or turning without indicating it can be annoying.

Why do you choose to deliberately annoy other road users?

I don't. You are more than welcome to come and sit in my car and judge my driving first hand - I have nothing to hide and it would probably be more relevant than you (mis)interpreting what I write over and over again so that you can trot out the same lines about my driving annoying you. You never know, you might broaden your horizons

Chris

As for reading drivers I often get a confused look by my passengers going "why ru moving out?", "because the car is going to want to overtake.......*pause*........ see?". I tend to talk at traffic all the time when the mrs is in the car so she hopefully can pick up on the little things when shes driving.

Hehe - I'm doing the same with my 7 year old girl and she's getting quite good at reading the traffic now as well as deciding if overtakes are on . Just needs to grow a bit more so she can reach the pedals

Chris

I use my eyes. If there's no-one about I don't signal. If there's a doubt, I signal. Simples and has served me well over the years and not once have I had a bad reaction or someone not clear as to my intention.

That's probably because you've just forced them into the nearest hedge by pulling out without indicating. To make matters worse, because you think you can see everything going on around you'll likely be completely unaware of their plight.

At least your lack of effort warns everyone else to stay well back.

That's probably because you've just forced them into the nearest hedge by pulling out without indicating. To make matters worse, because you think you can see everything going on around you'll likely be completely unaware of their plight.

At least your lack of effort warns everyone else to stay well back.

Probably - my overtaking could do with some work, but I understand I am in good company on that front

Feel feel to drop me a PM if you fancy going for a drive sometime and comparing notes

Chris

The overtaking scenario was an example, it didn't happen, unlike your admission that you only indicate when you think no one can see you.

As you plan to try to improve your overtaking skills may I suggest you start with the basics and consider indicating?

The overtaking scenario was an example, it didn't happen, unlike your admission that you only indicate when you think no one can see you.

I'm confused - so you're withdrawing the one example you've put forward where always signalling is beneficial?

As you plan to try to improve your overtaking skills may I suggest you start with the basics and consider indicating?

Of course you can - I am open to suggestion. Perhaps you can talk me through the perfect "basic" single car overtake and convince me that signalling is a) necessary and beneficial?

Chris

Why al the fuss. he was coming up behind you. Just slow down ,let him pass and pull in .Not rocket science. Just commmon courtesy. me, I'd have eiter puled over or slowed down to lert you in . But ,then I'm an old guy. No reason to get stressed out. It's only a half second delay.

silver1011 - If you "don't know" what's around you in any stretch of road you could see whilst kneeling on the road (to get your eye level about right) then IMO there's something wrong with your observation. I suggest you buy and watch the "Roadcraft" and "Ultimate Driving Craft" DVDs before continuing this conversation.

ScoobyChris - Even at "silly o'clock" I'll still always signal when approaching the end of the street I live in because it's impossible to see along the road you're turning into to know whether there's anyone there or not until you're well into the braking phase and reaching the "correct gear" phase of the manoevre.

OTOH I rarely signal my turnoff into my works access road regardless of time of day because I can see 10 to 15s along each arm of the junction and hence know whether or not there's anyone who might benefit from a signal.

I'm confused - so you're withdrawing the one example you've put forward where always signalling is beneficial?

I'm not withdrawing anything? It was an example, made up, make believe, fiction, it didn't happen.

:no:

silver1011 - If you "don't know" what's around you in any stretch of road you could see whilst kneeling on the road (to get your eye level about right) then IMO there's something wrong with your observation. I suggest you buy and watch the "Roadcraft" and "Ultimate Driving Craft" DVDs before continuing this conversation.

Your scenario works on a dual carriageway or motorway where the surrounding traffic is relatively predictable. Regular observation will provide you with a good idea of what traffic is around you.

However, in a busy, constantly changing, urban street scene to try and pretend that a driver should be aware of the locations and movements of all potential people who could or could not benefit from an indication is unrealistic.

I don't doubt additional training would improve a typical drivers observational skills, however we aren't robots. When you are checking you rear view mirror it is impossible to be looking ahead at the same time.

It is therefore perfectly plausible an average driver could miss a pedestrian on the footpath, a car attempting to reverse out of a space, a bus waiting to swing wide out of a junction, a parked delivery van about to perform a u-turn, a cyclist merging into the road off a footpath, a mother with her pushchair deciding if she should press the button for the pedestrian crossing or just wait until you have passed to avoid holding you up unnecessarily etc. etc.

Another person who could potentially benefit from your indicator could be hundreds of metres up the road, increasing the likelihood of you not seeing them. Just because you can't see them doesn't mean they can't see you - and therefore benefit from an indication as they prepare to cross the road.

What about a parked car you can't see is occupied. The driver is waiting for you to pass before opening their door, and you turn off before reaching them. Indicating would have benefitted here.

What about a car approaching a round about from the opposite direction. You are turning right across his path but because of the furniture in the centre of the roundabout you can't see him and don't indicate. You enter his view and for a short period of time he has no idea if you are continuing straight ahead or turning right. Indicating would have benefitted here too.

The list is endless and after all we are talking about simply pushing a lever. It's free, it's safe, it's common courtesy and its dead easy.

I don't pretend I'm the perfect driver, which is all the more reason why I should make the extra effort required to indicate my intentions to others, even if I can't see them.

I don't pretend I'm the perfect driver, which is all the more reason why I should make the extra effort required to indicate my intentions to others, even if I can't see them.

On the contrary; you're coming across as claiming that you're exactly that "because I always signal in case there's someone I can't see who would have benefitted". Instead of making up vaguely plausible hypothetical scenarios, how about you read the 2 real World ones I've outlined above and tell me how you think I'd have played your hypothetical roundabout? And see if you can tell me why you think I'm wrong to observe and then decide I don't need to signal before turning into work?

Edited 24 January, 201313 yr by KenONeill

Your scenario works on a dual carriageway or motorway where the surrounding traffic is relatively predictable. Regular observation will provide you with a good idea of what traffic is around you.

Hallelujah Btw, the OP was talking slip roads

However, in a busy, constantly changing, urban street scene to try and pretend that a driver should be aware of the locations and movements of all potential people who could or could not benefit from an indication is unrealistic.

Hallelujah (See my definition) But to clarify, you don't have to be aware of all locations and movements of all people - just one will do Perhaps a better way of looking at it is to "look for a reason *not* to signal" rather than looking for people to signal to.

I don't pretend I'm the perfect driver, which is all the more reason why I should make the extra effort required to indicate my intentions to others, even if I can't see them.

Some of your examples are a bit tenuous, but I will reiterate that by always indicating you are not making extra effort - you are just doing the minimum of flicking a switch. I have no problem if you think that is part of being a good driver - we're all entitled to our own opinions - but as we've seen in the examples, if you're just one-way "broadcasting" your intentions you are offloading responsibility onto other drivers and assuming 1) they know what your intention is (which sometimes may be clear and other times, like the overtaking scenario, will not be) and 2) that they will be co-operative. Without that, can you really safely commit to a manouevre?

Chris

f you're just one-way "broadcasting" your intentions you are offloading responsibility onto other drivers and assuming 1) they know what your intention is (which sometimes may be clear and other times, like the overtaking scenario, will not be) and 2) that they will be co-operative. Without that, can you really safely commit to a manouevre?

Chris

Hi lol,

Why do you assume ones offloading responsibility just because they're signalling?

Why would it also be not clear of the intentions?

When I see an indicator normally a driver wants to or in the process of changing directions. Generally doesn't affect me, because if in process they normally planned already, if waiting/not in process they're planning.

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk 2

Signalling is a two way communication process because you are informing another driver of your intentions and seeking their co-operation. A simple example would be where you're driving along a motorway in heavy traffic and you want to switch lanes. You put your indicator on to start the process of negotiation with the traffic in the lane you are trying to move to. If there's no response is it safe to proceed, or are you putting you trust in him (or her) and giving them responsibility for the outcome of what you're about to do? Ie, the "it wasn't my fault, I had my indicator on" mentality which seems to be fairly prevalent.

A couple of other things to consider when signalling are how long it takes for someone to absorb that information and also is my signal visible. A good example of the latter is where you're turning right at a cross-roads - can traffic approaching from the left see if you're going straight on or turning right? Would there be a better way of communicating your intention to them?

See the overtaking example for a situation earlier where an indicator may not be clear (or at least may be open to different interpretation).

Chris

People who don't indicate when changing lanes on the motorway are scumbags.

Signalling is a two way communication process because you are informing another driver of your intentions and seeking their co-operation.

Chris

I'd submit that it's also a warning, particularly in lighter traffic, when it can be read as, say "I intend to move out and overtake the vehicle ahead rather than fall in behind it".

I'd submit that it's also a warning, particularly in lighter traffic, when it can be read as, say "I intend to move out and overtake the vehicle ahead rather than fall in behind it".

The only scenario where I can think that would be useful is where there is a car behind you who may also be looking for the overtake but that would still be a signal directed at him and you'd be looking for a response of compliance (or not) before deciding on your plan. In other cases, I think position would give much more information and clarity about your intentions, especially using the "contact" position while considering if the overtake is on... But that's just my opinion

Chris

And as a slight departure from the "Advanced driving" angle, here is what the official DSA L-test book (The official DSA guide to driving: the essential skills By Driving Standards Agency) states on page 70-71:

MSM Routine:

Regardless of your driving experience, you must make the Mirrors - Signal - Manouevre routine an integral part of your driving.

Remember this routine

- MIRRORS - check the speed and position of traffic behind you

- SIGNAL - consider whether a signal is necessary. If it is, signal your intention to change course or slow down clearly and in good time

- MANOUEVRE - a manouevre is any change of speed or position

Chris

Edited 24 January, 201313 yr by ScoobyChris

See the overtaking example for a situation earlier where an indicator may not be clear (or at least may be open to different interpretation).

Chris

Could you link/quote the example of why its confusing? I can't seem to find it. (the junction/overtaking scenario doesn't really count as imo its a bit silly to do an overtake anyway )

- SIGNAL - consider whether a signal is necessary. If it is, signal your intention to change course or slow down clearly and in good time

To me, its purely a warning in less congested areas, I don't expect them to change their course of action simply because I have signalled (ie not offloading responsibility), acknowledged I have indicated and I am making a maneuver, yes. In high congestion areas ofc some discretion is advised. Unless this isn't the correct way of thought?

Pah, tedious... maybe a diagram will help..

On the contrary; you're coming across as claiming that you're exactly that "because I always signal in case there's someone I can't see who would have benefitted". Instead of making up vaguely plausible hypothetical scenarios, how about you read the 2 real World ones I've outlined above and tell me how you think I'd have played your hypothetical roundabout? And see if you can tell me why you think I'm wrong to observe and then decide I don't need to signal before turning into work?

So remind me, as you clearly are a perfect driver, what is the benefit of not indicating?

The key here is your "I don't need to indicate" compared with the other persons "I wish he'd indicate".