Looks like my Superb might be on the way out...

[oh_superb]

 

I put the car back together on Wednesday and it is running well, in fact I am writing this from a mountain slope about 1000 miles away from home, and the Superb took us there including high speed autobahn run, so I'd say the belt job went just fine.

 

However, two minor snags emerged, one is that the new Valeo alternator makes a slight noise, either bearing or a fan scraping the case, was evident on installation but I had half-term trip coming up so could not afford another delay. Amazon has in fact already refunded in full, even before me returning the alternator (I have 30 days to return), but currently all 140A alternators are out of stock till April at Amazon. Though as as silver lining I found a stronger one, 150A new Valeo with them (and at a lower price), still waiting for availability date on this one. I am hoping availability on this one might be earlier, if not I'll have to get a refurbished one, or a stopgap cheap Chinese one. But I will have to take the car's front to service position again soon  .

 

The other minor snag was that during the trip, as soon as we entered Germany and sped up above 120mph, the chrome front grill surround with badge flew off the car. It had top 2 catches damaged last year by someone trying to nick the new Skoda badge off. I glued it afterwards with epoxy, but apparently not well enough.  Silver lining there again, as I have just ordered a badgeless grille for delivery next week...

 

 Also, one part number I cannot find and would like to renew are intercooler o-rings, part 8A on Etka diagram 145-90 for V6. The part number is not listed at all for any car BDG engine was used in. Do you know where to get hold of them?

 

 

 

 

Rollers and tensioners for V-belts are correctly listed on ECP and GSF websites if you put in 2.5 tdi engined Superb, no need for VW part numbers, though they are  059903341J for grooved idler, 059903341 for smooth idler,  059145276 for alternator tensioner roller and 059206523B for airco tensioner. All rollers I used on alternator belt are made by INA, same as original on the car.

I did replace timing belt tensioner this time, I used the larger ContiTech belt kit (CT1015K2 + CT1018K1), got it at ECP, though they are cheaper elsewhere, including Amazon. I tested thermostats in hot water, opening temp is 87deg C, and they should be at least 8mm open at boiling. I had Febi water pump that I bought years ago, but if I was going to buy it, I would just get the biggest ContiTech kit that includes water pump. Gates and others are OK-ish, but for example injection pump tensioner I got with the last Gates kit was not very good, required re-tensioning after a while and distorted easily. The one I got now was much better. ContiTech is by far best quality, and prices have come down quite a bit since last time.

 

 

 

Did you also replace the damper?  Such as found in this kit:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/V-ribbed-Belt-with-Damper-Conti-SKF-INA-Audi-2-5-TDI-ab-Year-01-2002-/361380225869?hash=item5423f0a34d:g:AoYAAOSwYGFUr5rQ

 

Are these the rollers you changed ?

[jimbof]

Nice one.  The more I look around the car the more I despair at "work" that "professionals" have done.

I have often wondered with transmission oil change, how do you go through the process mandated for oil change - I recall you're supposed to run it in all the gears while refilling?

[oh_superb]

Nice one.  The more I look around the car the more I despair at "work" that "professionals" have done.

I have often wondered with transmission oil change, how do you go through the process mandated for oil change - I recall you're supposed to run it in all the gears while refilling?

It's simple really.  Two man job.  Have the assistant next to the car with a long hose into the sump, and a work light and drain pan underneath to catch the overflow.  Do initial fill with engine off until it overflows.  That's 2.8 litres or so.  Then run engine in Neutral first until the assistant has pumped another litre into it or so, then with foot firmly on the brake pedal and keep in each gear for 30 seconds, 2, 3, 4, D, R, P, and back down again, have VCDS running on the laptop, Auto transmission unit, Group 4, showing tranny temperature.  Assistant keeps topping oil up to the point where oil is dripping into the pan, while you keep an eye on oil temperature and keep shifting.  Point is purging all the valves of air.  Once the oil is 35 deg C and the assistant has topped up one final time, you go into Park, he goes under the car to pull the filler out and put the fill plug in, then he gives thumbs up and you just shut engine down.  Simple. :-)  15 mins.

Edited 29 February, 2016 by oh_superb

[dieselV6]

Did you also replace the damper?  Such as found in this kit:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/V-ribbed-Belt-with-Damper-Conti-SKF-INA-Audi-2-5-TDI-ab-Year-01-2002-/361380225869?hash=item5423f0a34d:g:AoYAAOSwYGFUr5rQ

 

Are these the rollers you changed ?

 

I left the original v-belt damper, but cleaned corrossion off one end of it and zinced it up afterwards. Yes, the rollers look to be the right ones, though the price for the whole kit is quite a bit higher than what I paid, probably on account of a damper. Belts and all rollers would be under £120 if you get them individually. Also, on earlier engines the multi grooved roller sometimes has a washer underneath (there are 2 designs, but both work), if the new one comes without washer you install it without, if new one is with washer you put the washer in.  There is an INA technote on this.

 

I thought about replacing v-belt damper but it is moving smoothly, and I decided that in case it starts going, I will likely hear the belt squeal. In any case, its failure would have far less critical consequences than timing belt damper failure.

[oh_superb]

I left the original v-belt damper, but cleaned corrossion off one end of it and zinced it up afterwards. Yes, the rollers look to be the right ones, though the price for the whole kit is quite a bit higher than what I paid, probably on account of a damper. Belts and all rollers would be under £120 if you get them individually. Also, on earlier engines the multi grooved roller sometimes has a washer underneath (there are 2 designs, but both work), if the new one comes without washer you install it without, if new one is with washer you put the washer in.  There is an INA technote on this.

 

I thought about replacing v-belt damper but it is moving smoothly, and I decided that in case it starts going, I will likely hear the belt squeal. In any case, its failure would have far less critical consequences than timing belt damper failure.

Thanks dieselv6.  I am of the same opinion as you in that the aux drive belt issue is far less drastic than timing belt.  I will be buying those aux belt rollers separately, ECP seem to sell the INA ones at competitive cost too.  But rather than change whole lot, I was thinking of inspecting for bearing noise/ free play and replace if necessary.  But they have served 150 k miles, so perhaps false economy for the sake of 100 quid or so.  Local ECP have plenty of stock so could grab easily a few.  The only thing is I bought the Conti kits (the 1015 and 1018 part numbers) but they come without the hydraulic damper unit for the timing belt.  Are you aware of a decent way of ascertaining the condition of it?  I know it's a dynamic device, so a static test is probably not really an option.  Apart from the obvious tip wear I can't think of much to do with it, except when I hold it, it may feel worn somehow, in which case I'll just get a new one.

One final question (I think) is I can't find instructions on setting the aux belt tension up correctly?  Do you have something you can share, pls?  I have done a few Google searches but nothing concrete came up.  Equally I am clueless on torques for the relevant bolts.  I do have the settings for the timing belt procedure though.  Just need that dial torque wrench for the diesel pump belt tensioner.

Edited 1 March, 2016 by oh_superb

[jimbof]

Then run engine in Neutral first until the assistant has pumped another litre into it or so, then with foot firmly on the brake pedal and keep in each gear for 30 seconds, 2, 3, 4, D, R, P, and back down again

 

Ah, so perhaps my confusion is one over how automatics work.  I didn't think you could actually get it to go into the gears if it is stationary with the wheels on ramps; I thought this procedure needed to be done with the wheels off the ground or on rollers or something.

[dieselV6]

Thanks dieselv6.  I am of the same opinion as you in that the aux drive belt issue is far less drastic than timing belt.  I will be buying those aux belt rollers separately, ECP seem to sell the INA ones at competitive cost too.  But rather than change whole lot, I was thinking of inspecting for bearing noise/ free play and replace if necessary.  But they have served 150 k miles, so perhaps false economy for the sake of 100 quid or so.  Local ECP have plenty of stock so could grab easily a few.  The only thing is I bought the Conti kits (the 1015 and 1018 part numbers) but they come without the hydraulic damper unit for the timing belt.  Are you aware of a decent way of ascertaining the condition of it?  I know it's a dynamic device, so a static test is probably not really an option.  Apart from the obvious tip wear I can't think of much to do with it, except when I hold it, it may feel worn somehow, in which case I'll just get a new one.

One final question (I think) is I can't find instructions on setting the aux belt tension up correctly?  Do you have something you can share, pls?  I have done a few Google searches but nothing concrete came up.  Equally I am clueless on torques for the relevant bolts.  I do have the settings for the timing belt procedure though.  Just need that dial torque wrench for the diesel pump belt tensioner.

 

If you can afford the delay, I would inspect the v-belt rollers and order as neccessary. Bear in mind that my car's engine works mostly at high rpm, 3000-4000+ for at least 70% the car's mileage, so I was not surprised that v-belt roller bearings were gone after 140k miles and nearly 10 years of use.

 

Regarding timing belt tensioner (you probably got CT1015K1 kit as opposed to CT1015K2), the only reason why I replaced that tensioner was that I do not want to touch timing gear again till end of the car. Any v-belt related job just requires service position, undoing viscous fan and v-belt covers, to do anything around timing belt is over double the effort as engine needs to be locked. Most "battle injuries" on my hands (despite gloves!) after the last job came from accessing rear of the engine to insert/remove locking tools, undo/tighten vacuum pump bolts and check for vacuum pump oil leaks. 

 

Injection pump belt tensioner should be tightened to 36Nm.

 

Finally, regarding the aux belt tension, for alternator belt it is really simple as it is automatically tensioned, you move tensioner all the way towards crankshaft pulley (using a thick hex tool, do not remember either 14mm or 17mm), put the belt over tensioner and release the tensioner. So long as alternator belt is laid corectly, it will be automatically tensioned and no further work needs to be done there.  For the air conditioning compressor belt, the procedure calls for reversible torque wrench set to 7Nm with an 8mm allen socket and holding the belt tensioned using an the allen socket inserted into coresponding hole in the tensioner while tightening the tensioner bolt to 22Nm. Or if you are really careful, you can tension it somewhat, start the engine with airco off and adjust the tensioner halfway between the too loose/too tight positions, that is the tensioner positions in which the bottom part of the airco belt starts to vibrate. Not very scientific, but I had good results with this way of setting the tension for this particular belt.

 

 

Finally, some useful links for this job

 

http://ww2.gates.com/europe/file_display_common.cfm?thispath=Europe/documents_module&file=TB_042_E2_VAG_2.5-V6_TDI.pdf

 

And the most useful one I am sure you will agree  :sun: :

Skoda Workshop manual (basically ElsaWin online) : http://workshop-manuals.com/skoda/superb/drive_unit/2.5_/114_kw_tdi;_2.5_/120_kw_tdi_engine/enginecrankshaft_group_pistons/disassembling_and_assembling_engine_ii/

 

Have a good browse around the last link, it's all there.

[oh_superb]

Thank you very much!! Much appreciated, very good info

[oh_superb]

If you can afford the delay, I would inspect the v-belt rollers and order as neccessary. Bear in mind that my car's engine works mostly at high rpm, 3000-4000+ for at least 70% the car's mileage, so I was not surprised that v-belt roller bearings were gone after 140k miles and nearly 10 years of use.

 

Regarding timing belt tensioner (you probably got CT1015K1 kit as opposed to CT1015K2), the only reason why I replaced that tensioner was that I do not want to touch timing gear again till end of the car. Any v-belt related job just requires service position, undoing viscous fan and v-belt covers, to do anything around timing belt is over double the effort as engine needs to be locked. Most "battle injuries" on my hands (despite gloves!) after the last job came from accessing rear of the engine to insert/remove locking tools, undo/tighten vacuum pump bolts and check for vacuum pump oil leaks. 

 

Injection pump belt tensioner should be tightened to 36Nm.

 

Finally, regarding the aux belt tension, for alternator belt it is really simple as it is automatically tensioned, you move tensioner all the way towards crankshaft pulley (using a thick hex tool, do not remember either 14mm or 17mm), put the belt over tensioner and release the tensioner. So long as alternator belt is laid corectly, it will be automatically tensioned and no further work needs to be done there.  For the air conditioning compressor belt, the procedure calls for reversible torque wrench set to 7Nm with an 8mm allen socket and holding the belt tensioned using an the allen socket inserted into coresponding hole in the tensioner while tightening the tensioner bolt to 22Nm. Or if you are really careful, you can tension it somewhat, start the engine with airco off and adjust the tensioner halfway between the too loose/too tight positions, that is the tensioner positions in which the bottom part of the airco belt starts to vibrate. Not very scientific, but I had good results with this way of setting the tension for this particular belt.

 

 

Finally, some useful links for this job

 

http://ww2.gates.com/europe/file_display_common.cfm?thispath=Europe/documents_module&file=TB_042_E2_VAG_2.5-V6_TDI.pdf

 

And the most useful one I am sure you will agree  :sun: :

Skoda Workshop manual (basically ElsaWin online) : http://workshop-manuals.com/skoda/superb/drive_unit/2.5_/114_kw_tdi;_2.5_/120_kw_tdi_engine/enginecrankshaft_group_pistons/disassembling_and_assembling_engine_ii/

 

Have a good browse around the last link, it's all there.

 

Just out of interest, did you just put into service position or did you completely remove the front?  As I intend to change the thermostat and water pump too, would you recommend fully stripping the front or would the service position still be sufficient.  It seems a bit tight on photos/videos.

[dieselV6]

Unless you intend to change radiator or another item mountd to lock carrier, I would not strip the front, never have done on my car despite 2 belt jobs and (repeated  ) alternator replacement. Service position provides decent access to all timing belt components on a V6. If anything, the only difficult bits are behind engine (access to rear of camshafts to insert timing locks, nothing to do with the front).

 

Both thermostat and water pump are perfectly accessible from the front, though keep in mind that to remove them you need to undo top air intake (6 bolts on top of engine including 2x EGR cooler bolts that may require long 6mm allen sockets, and intake to intercooler pipe union) and top rear timing belt covers. Also bear in mind that cleaning remains of old water pump gasket is non-trivial and takes time and some care to avoid scoring the surface, I used scrapers and a dremel tool with a brass brush to remove remains, though recently found out that brake cleaner spray might make this job easier.

One thing to bear in mind after you have mounted the new water pump, is that the water pump is only fully held to engine once timing belt cover/v-belt pulley carrier is installed and torqued, so do not pressure test coolant system until timing belts are on or you are bound to see your new pump leaking. 

 

Frankly, the only things you do not actually see (but have access to) during the belt job are vibration damper bolts, but so long as you use 3/8" or 1/2" Allen socket and a ratchet/torque wrench, they are easy enough to remove/tighten, just make sure you double and triple check every bolt there with torque wrench after the job.

 

Also, ignore manual saying that you need to remove front bumper beam, no need, just bumper cover and front underbody cover, plastic intercooler air guides and then 6x-8x T45 lock carrier bolts (I use all 8), a T30 washer bottle bolt and 4x T30 bolts holding wings to lock carrier, 2 on top, 2 on side, and on later engines (BDG) also unclip left intercooler hose (right/driver side intercooler hose is long enough). Remember to put guides (VW3369) into the larger lock carrier holes before you undo all lock carrier bolts.I think the other type of guide (VW3411) works better in smaller holes where bumper beam is attached.  

I also had headlamps removed during the job, but this was only because I had to fight the lock carrier bolts to free them.

 

In my opinion, best order to do the job using basic tools is to put car on front axle stands, remove top engine covers (PS, air and engine), then bumper and underbody covers (turning front wheels to get access to bumper cover screws), then bring the front to service position. Aferwards remove viscous fan using 2x 32mm wrenches, the longer the better, I use one universal one 32/34 on the pulley side, and the VW3312 tool that allows a breaker bar attached to the end on the fan side (normal thread so undo fan counter-clockwise). Once you get the fan off and the front is 100mm forward (I use rubber exhaust mounts as spacers to keep the front forward with some flex), access is quite good, and I only then recommend removing the rear bits from the engine (air box, turbo intercooler duct, camshaft cover and vacuum pump). Once these are removed, lock the engine (rear of camshafts, crankshaft and I also use injection pump lock VW3359 to confirm). Crankshaft lock hole is accessible underneath the car from behind the gearbox cover, ie past the subframe, once you figure out where to put your arm it is actually easy.

 

One thing I did not mentioned so far is coolant removal. If you are sure that the car hes always been run with decent 40%-50% G12/++/G13, I would not disconnect coolant hoses as they tend to be a pain to remove and easy to damage on an old car. On my car, 5 years ago I removed coolant temp sensor, though it is a very messy way to empty the system. So this time, I connected 10mm rubber hose next to the safety valve on the rad, and then undid the safety valve (red plastic screw). For emptying the engine, there is a pipe behind alternator around where airco lines are, it has a screw blocking it, once you remove the screw you drain all water from the engine block and head. But if you feel your radiator might be stuffed with limescale and gunk, best to disconnect hoses and flush it through.