Golden

Firstly, well Googled. Secondly, if you're going to get that specific you should know that unless otherwise stated most fasteners have a negligible ratio of wet/dry coefficient of friction to their yield point. This is because most torque figures need to be well within the SWL of the fastner (excluding TTY bolts).

Had you bothered to read the thread properly you'd have seen my original comment was based on this post. To which I replied... I don't need to Google what I already know and unlike your ranting assertion I was not saying anything negative about copaslip. If you're going to a baseless argument at least read the original text properly, otherwise it's just lazy.

Do you even know what Galvanic corrosion is? The potential corrosion isn't between two parts but between the copper grease and the contact part :clap: VAG only kicked in the goodwill payment after this became a potential Watchdog feature and PR disaster, you shouldn't mock people that had units repaired cheaply as VAG initially laughed them out the door. As I said before IMO back street garages and stealerships can be as bad as each other but for different reasons. In my experience 80%-90% of the motor trade are dodgey to some degree. Both might charge you for parts you don't need, one might charge you for a part they broke taking it off while another may charge you for a part because ODB told them the part was duff only for them to find the multiplug was loose when they go to fit the new part. As for this:- I know someone who recently got a complete refund from Audi on an R8 because after 6 months and tens of dealer visits to try and eliminate a brake squeal they couldn't do it

Seriously? Galvanic corrosion requires the presence of an electrolyte, Copaslip is not an electrolyte, DUH! Of course I can make that statement, Copaslip contains absolutely no such contaminants so you're talking utter nonsense. Anyone 'slavering' over anything written here should not be touching their own deadly weapon! That is all. Maybe you could point out which bits are pompous and which bits are just factually accurate text? Two things you rude person. The OP talks about generic 'copper grease' and if you bothered to read my 'Gigantic wall of pompous text' you may have learn't that not all copper grease is created equal and so sweeping generalizations shouldn't be made. ?As for requiring an electrolyte it's a good job cars operate in a sterile vacuum container and don't get exposed to things like rain, snow and road salt, because that would create an excellent electrolyte. :think:

:love: I think you're being over sensitive. I believe the fronts have anti rattle clips but anti squeal is handled mainly by the spring clip shim insert in the piston caliper. This depends on whether someone has lost the piston shim or if the clips are worn or damaged. I didn't mean it wasn't a good substitute, I said Plasti-lube is a better product, I should have made myself clearer, what I meant was that you don't need to drop using copper grease in all applications in favour of Plasti-lube. I completely disagree, modern cars with the harder wearing, extended service interval brakes suffer far more from brake squeal than any age of car that's gone before them, with maybe the time period of the switch from asbestos to asbestos free lining material being an exception. TBH in the arches (I'd include tyre/exhaust places and Halfrauds in this) and dealership mechanics (certainly not all but the majority) tend to be the least skilled personnel in the motor industry. In the arches monkeys are untrained bodgers, often ripping off the customer because of their own ignorance and inability to not break parts or competently diagnose faults. Stealership monkeys are unthinking automatons, who have their diagnostic abilities beaten out of them by factory diagnostic machines, service bulletins and manufacturer book times. They are often completely incapable of completing the most mundane task on a vehicle they're unfamiliar with and never consider that the manufacturer could be wrong or have alternative motives for making them buy additional equipment or products. I'm not suggesting this is you, but look around your workshop and tell me I'm not right, out of an average of 6-8 mechanics at a stealership only 1, 2 if you're lucky, can be called anything more than glorified fitters. As for stealership prices, people only pay them to keep the warranty up and because manufacturers use diagnostic and special tools to price independents out of the market. Most people know of a good mechanic/garage they'd rather use if the above two issues weren't a consideration. I should point out that I'm neither a stealership nor independent mechanic.

I don't think I've ever seen so many half truths, exaggerations and BS. The decision about whether to apply some form of high temperature grease to the pads requires an understanding of why you do it. Brake squeal is caused by high frequency vibration of the pad between the caliper and disc, there are two ways to avoid this, glue the pad to the caliper piston, or use something as a damping medium, such as copper grease. Many manufacturers also use anti squeal shims and clips which stealership monkeys excel at loosing or deliberately leaving out. It's also wrong to make definitive statements based on a generic product description, there is a world of difference between something like Penrite Copper Eze and some unbranded Chinese stuff of Ebay. Plasti-lube is a better product than copper grease but not an essential swap and excessive lubricant of any type is a waste, mess and potentially dangerous. If you read the beginning of this post hopefully I've answered both your points. Anyone 'slathering' external components in any lubricant shouldn't be touching a potential deadly weapon. Copper grease can promote galvanic corrosion but only under certain specific conditions unlikely to occur in brake mechanisms. As for it's effect on hall effect sensors, you can't make definitive statements about this because cheap copper grease could have all manner of ferrous contaminants in it. Also excessive application of any lubricant can get on sensors and attract ferrous material causing a malfunction. Utter BS, a bolt holds two items together by pushing it into its elastic range, not by the coefficient of friction of the thread surfaces. Applying grease to wheel bolts compared with clean dry threads should make negligible difference to the overall torque figure. Over-tightening, stretching and damage a far more likely to occur from dirty, unlubricated threads because torque loads aren't applied evenly along the bolt causing excessive localized stress.

He probably means wheel centre to arch OR floor to arch. Wheel centre to arch is a better figure as it removes variation in wheel size/tyre type and wear.

From what I can see on the website they use different shore ratings for different bushes, which is probably part of the reason they're so expensive!

:S What! Are they infused with platinum? Does anyone know the Super Pro shore rating out of interest?

I don't need to 'continue'. I have showed multiple times why your theory is ridiculous, yet you've offered no proof other than 'because I say so, I own a VRS'. TBH the wobbling hubs are the less ridiculous part of your theory, how an after market ARB would cure this wobbling is the really laughable part. I am not pointing this out to belittle or embarrass you, vehicle engineering is my specialty, as I'm sure your day job is for you. The only reason I'm pointing out that your theory is incorrect, is because I think it's unfair for other forum users to be mislead simply because you shout with authority.

LOL you can't keep changing your theory as you desperately trawl the internet clutching at proof. You said the weak area was the hub, not the axle. That product is designed to reinforce racing cars running on slicks generating cornering loads the original engineers didn't envisage. LINKING TO THIS PRODUCT IS POINTLESS, IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT AN AFTER MARKET REAR ARB WILL NOT DO THE SAME JOB. You are just plain wrong, you don't understand the operation of an ARB, you don't understand basic physics and you certainly don't understand dynamic suspension operation, thus far this is all you've proved time and time again.

I see you're changing your story and misleadingly misquoting me. Why have you suddenly mentioned the bushes when before you stated it was the hubs flexing on the end of the axle? I am not the one suggesting there is any rear wheel steer, I stated quite clearly that this doesn't happen, but would happen if your fanciful pipe dream were real. So far I have demonstrated with facts, figures and diagrams that this does not happen. Even if it did happen in some alternate universe, I've also shown, factually, that an aftermarket ARB will have zero effect on it. Instead of just repeating that it happens because you say so, maybe you could demonstrate with some kind of facts, proof, or engineering????

I've never seen the stuff Powerflex supply (they're woefully over priced IMO) so I don't know if it's standard copper grease or something more fine. I can tell you I've seen many Bugpack/Prothane/Polysport bushes with premature wear due to off the shelf copper grease.

The best stuff is Castrol CL or some other sort of calcium based grease, after that use graphite based CV type grease as Lofty does or if not Castrol LM or some other lithium based grease. DO NOT USE COPPER GREASE, the fine copper particles in it act as an abrasive and cause premature wear to the bush and insert/arb. People using copper grease is one of the main reasons some forum warriors (not on BRISKODA) claim poly bushes are crap and you should fit OEM.

I don't know how else I can tell you that lateral strengthening from an after market ARB is an impossibility, did you not understand that picture I put up? There is no way a rear axle flexes inwards, it would create rear wheel steer and the car would be undriveable. Most VW group cars have toe tolerances of 10 minutes, on a 16inch wheel that's about 0.6mm per wheel, what you're suggesting is that axle moves enough to effect the handling but not enough to induce rear wheel steering, it's impossible.

Jase if helped you pick up anything I'm pleased. To come back to my original point about the mixing of components, my friend states:- It actually does, the entire rear beam is an anti roll bar, but it does have an anti roll bar element built into it. If you look at this picture from RobClubley's rear bush thread you'll see the end of a metal tube between the bush and the hub. Here's that tube inside the axle. This is a factory welded in rear anti roll bar. I don't have the specs for skoda or seat but I can tell you in Golf IV they come in 18 and 21.7mm. So say you have a VRS or Leon that starts off as a standard 1.6 it may well have the 18mm factory bar where as a VRS or Leon 20V Turbo may have a 21.7mm bar. If you then add an after market bar based on someone's experience with a different OE axle you'll get very different results.

I'll assume it's aimed at me then, if I've helped just one person understand the correct operation of an ARB then I'll consider the time typing well spent.

Who's that directed at?

I'm going to try and respond to this factually and politely. Firstly, the ARB bolts to the axle, not the hubs, so when you incorrectly describe it as an axle brace... How on earth is it supposed to have any effect on the hubs independently? This of course is completely wrong as not only does the bar not bolt to the hubs, or have any indepandant effect them, but the axle is also not in two halves. Here's a picture to show it's one solid piece. The centrifugal force on a car cornering is the centrifugal force on a car cornering, please describe what 'perfect corner force' is? I'm guessing from this comment:- And You feel there are cyclic forces acting on a flexible hub as you corner, now we all know that there's lateral load placed on the tyre contact patch by the centrifugal force of cornering, where is the opposing force operating in the other direction coming from? Firstly this is obviously not true as if it were it would be equivalent to driving along with massive toe out, which would scrub the inside edges of the rear tyres bald in just a few miles. Secondly, if this were true then your car would be in a ditch already, if you think that your hubs flex that much going round a corner, think about what happens when you move the steering wheel a tiny amount at 70mph. Now consider how your car would react if the rear axle flexed as you state, and how the rear would violently steer, throwing you into a spin. This is so wrong I'm trying hard to be factual, maybe a picture will help. This is why your suggestion is fatally flawed. The rear ARB on a our example Leon works only in torsion (twisting), not laterally (sideways) or compression/tension (squeezing/pulling). The entire rear axle of a Leon is one big ARB. The axle doesn't flex sideways but does twist in the middle. When you fit an aftermarket ARB you are supplementing the roll stiffness already in the rear axle, nothing else.

I am a member of lots of different forums and sometimes I just read and don't post. The fact that I belong to and read many different forums is why I felt I'd say something having read this thread. On many, many occasions I've seen people make regrettable decisions based on forum recommendation. People mean well but sometimes a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing and those that know even less, trustingly follow suggestions and recommendations that aren't always suitable for their car. In car tuning or modifying some things are a matter of opinion and some are just engineering fact. If something is fact I'll say so, if you just my opinion I'd also say so.

The anti-roll bar is not an axle brace. Look at how it mounts, on this Neuspeed, it's on circular bushes in the middle and bushed drop links on the end. Any lateral (sideways load) would simply cause the bar to move sideways in the bushes, there's nothing to stop it. Stiffening the rear end doesn't decrease rear end grip, it improves front end grip. The stiffer end of a car will always break away first because the car pivots or yaws around it's center and the first wheel to lift and loose traction will be the inside wheel on the stiffest axle. Modern cars are designed with a fairly stiff front end in comparison to the rear to induce understeer as understeer is far more easily controlled by a mediocre driver. By fitting a stiffer rear bar you alter the handling balance, pushing it towards a neutral handling setup. A properly set up performance car should drift or slide equally on all four wheels in corner. This is the fastest set up but requires a far more aware or skilled driver, as either end could break away first. If you continued to stiffen the rear end you'd push the balance past neutral and start to induce oversteer. Great fun but requires a lot more skill to control than understeer which is why manufacturers build in understeer when they design suspension. It's also not the fastest way round a corner. On a road car as well doing what I've mentioned above the anti-roll bar does exactly what the name suggests because it limits body roll. The reason for this is most productions cars do not have room for a suspension design that allows for minimal camber change when the body rolls. We all know that a tyre generates maximum grip when its surface is flat against the road, or to put it another way, when it's upright. If you look at this picture of an Alfa you can see that the outer wheel, doing most of the work, has gone way past upright, seriously reducing its grip. If you wonder why manufacturers don't just fit stiffer springs to do the same things, it's because an anti-roll bar allows them to limit body roll but keep a much more acceptable ride quality. To limit body roll with springs (as they do with race cars) the ride would shake the fillings out of your teeth. An anti-roll bar only resists body roll when one wheel moves differently to the other, like when you're cornering. If the car goes over a rut in the road or over a sleeping policeman the bar simply moves up and down in its bushes, having no effect at all and giving a much softer ride. I hope that all makes sense.

If you think they're cut and paste responses maybe you could find them on Google, couldn't be that hard if I just searched topics and found them? Alternatively try pasting chunks of my text in Google, see if that works? Shouting liar liar pants on fire with a smiley isn't really a good come back. I really don't know how this thread degenerated into this when I only made a few relevant, helpful comments.

LOL, nice try, maybe you should read my very helpful explanation of why increased roll stiffness increases lift off over-steer. Maybe you could explain to everyone else how they 'reduce rear end grip'?

Yes, that's because in that instance I was factually correct, taking that comment out of context is a very poor attempt to make me look arrogant.

Sorry, just thought it was worth pointing out to anyone reading statements like this... ...may not be applicable to every VRS on the road. I'm not sure whether people should trust your advice as you stated with complete conviction that a sway bar is different to an ARB, which is just complete rubbish. Maybe you could explain why I would feel the need to prove myself to a group of anonymous people I've never met? I think you'll find the definition of a know-it-all is someone who claims to know everything, maybe you could point out exactly where I demonstrated this? You can try and twist what I said as much as you like, at no point did I say you were wrong, or doubt your experience with the VRS, I simply thought it was worth pointing out to anyone reading this thread that your blanket recommendation may not suit everyone's car. Never let it be said I'm not unhelpful, even if I am treated rudely. Lift off over-steer occurs because under deceleration weight transfers from the rear to the front, lowering the coefficient of friction at the rear tyre contact patches (tyres not pushed into the tarmac so much). In the straight ahead position this shouldn't be noticeable but when combined with a steering input a yaw angle is induced in the car. This causes the car to pivot diagonally between the stiffest outside wheel and the softest inside wheel (due to the relative softness of the outside wheel on the softer axle). As you increase the difference in stiffness between the front and rear axles this effective is increasingly exaggerated. Fitting a stiffer ARB to the rear of a car will increase the roll stiffness on the back of the car, making the amount the inside rear tyre 'unloads' during sudden deceleration through a corner higher. The same effect can be created by anything that increases roll stiffness, a change in spring rates on one axle or dampers with a harsher valving. If this comment is aimed at me I made no reference to motor racing or corner weights, I simply stated that because of the way suspension components interact you cannot make blanket recommendations applicable to every car.