Graham Butcher

So are you now saying that you didn't mean to say what you wrote above then, which is what I was referring, when I said that EV makers marketing depts will be making similar claims when they introduce new models, they have to sell new cars all the time or go bust.

If @wyx087 thinks that once anybody gets an EV thats the last time that the EV makers are going to bother to tempt him buy a new model, then he definitely has his head buried in the sand. They have marketing departments whose task is to encourage sales of new cars to new and existing customers, just the same as ICE makers. You just know what they will be making similar claims about how much greener their new models are over the older ones, more miles/Kw, more range between charges, cheaper running costs etc.

Well just maybe next year more people will use their right to vote, hopefully there will less apathy around then, let's wait and see, keep your fingers crossed on that front. Sometimes I feel that we need to be more like the French and revolt at times and say to the authorities enough is enough and make sure that they get the message loud and clear.

I could have placed a bet on that you would put a completely different slant on the moving forward as a society. I meant by lowering the massive gulf that exists in this country between "the haves and have nots", so that nobody has to rely on foodbanks, or rough sleeping etc. You certainly have a very jaundiced view of the ICE car industry, I'm afraid, do you really think that the EV industry isn't going to play a similar game

Thanks for posting this, never realised this info was available, I'm over on the left that chart then, pension only pays £1000 a month and just housing takes £600 a month. 😒

My point entirely, people who are in a privileged position just don't get how lucky they are and certainly cannot think outside their box, which is one of the reason why I think that EV cars may not be the magic bullet that some people seem to think they are and also the same with all the low emission zones being setup across the country, some people may actually end up paying multiple charges. Having already stated that the EV situation is unlikely to affect me in my lifetime and secondly, my car already complies with most of LEZ's so once does not really affect me. But having been in a lower income bracket all my life, never been away for a holiday in the UK let alone flown or cruised for a holiday, simply because I could not afford to. I have never been a drinker, a gambler or a smoker, so no money has been wasted on those. I also was never able to get onto the property ladder, so I have been a social housing tenant all of my life so far. My Father died many years ago and had been a labourer all his life so had zero savings and no life insurance, so I became the only bread winner in the family, so I had to support myself and my Mother. I can see just how hard if not impossible it could be loads of families. My storey is far from unique, and yet we have leaders of the country who are billionaires and some are millionaires and have zero idea of what it is like for people in similar positions. They like many here on this forum lack the ability to see outside their circle/box If we could level the field a bit more, then we could embrace the forth coming changes more equally a society, rather than as winners and losers., @Luckypants I applaud for having the ability to understand that many will be far worse off.

Easier said than done I'm afraid, sometimes those are the only jobs that are available when employers want people with previous experience or there are simply heaps of graduates who are unable to find jobs in their chosen profession, actually stacking shelves in supermarkets. Sometimes, people, however well-intentioned, particularly those in positions of power, just need to stop and think things through, and maybe better still people in those positions need to have experienced what it is like for those people who are struggling. Talking is cheap and easy to do, but actions are not.

As I understand it, there is a grant of up to £2,000 to Londoners to assist in them getting a new car. So do you know how this scheme works? I read that businesses can get up to £7,000 to buy a new EV van to replace an old non-compliant van. So just how does this scheme work, I would expect that you have to, first, secure the replacement vehicle before applying for the grant, otherwise it would be wide open to abuse. So that there, to me, suggests that the applicant need to be able to afford the replacement vehicle, either for cash or able to secure a loan in the first instance, if so that there is a major stumbling block. Secondly, are able to go and buy an existing 2nd hand vehicle and still get the grant? Thirdly, if you can use the grant to assist with the purchase of a 2nd hand compliant vehicle, will you be able to get the full grant amount or a percentage of it? I have read the latest statement about these grants, it does not make it plain nor does it provide any examples of how it works. It also only makes the grant available to Londoners, what those people who are living within easy reach of London and have to drive in each day for work, there seems to be zero assistance for those people. In some cases it would mean those living in certain sections of a road may get the grant, but those on the opposite side for example can't and yet both work in London and have to drive in daily because public transport does not work for them i.e, they may work in public transport, but they have to travel when public transport is not available at those times. You also mention 10,000 lives are shortened by the poor air, and yet City Hall claim only 4,000 lives are affected, so which it. Personally, I think that even 4,000 is stretching the point.

Tesla's may be the exception here, but surely that is just another good example of price gouging, everybody is at it. Same with the ULEZ expansion in London, although my car is already complaint so does not affect me (currently), but I'm still against it, even with the City Hall scrappage scheme there are literally thousands of families who are faced with a real problem. They are unable to really afford the £12.50 a day to use their cars, and they also do not even earn enough or have any savings to scrap together the balance to purchase a replacement car, even with the support from City Hall. Equally, they cannot afford to move out of the zone into surrounding areas and look for employment away from the ULEZ zone. One of my sons works in the retail sector which during the Pandemic he was classified as one of the Key Workers that helped keep the country going during all the lockdowns and yet most people in that industry are not even on proper regular hours contracts but we all rely on people like him. He has different shifts and some weeks he may only have 2 or 3 days work, others maybe 4 or 5, there is nothing that he could rely on to go and get a loan against. How are people like him going to be able to survive, its one thing to say that Tesla's are getting cheaper while others are getting more expensive but is cold comfort to these poor folk who cannot even see a way to even dream about owning one. Next time you go shopping, observe the growing numbers of self-serve tills at the supermarkets, even these low paid, low security jobs are being phased out we are heading into some very uncertain times.

You do get problems with some new items, remember the Galaxy notes catching fire a few years ago? Best not to get to complacent and stay safe.

Agree, in my experience it usually tends to be structural damage that sees cars being confined to the scrapyard even years after they ceased production, if the actual structure is good, the mechanicals can be shot to hell, but there is usually enough cars at the scrapyards that can donate their mechanicals to make a good car again. There are some exceptions, like Jenson Interceptors, Jag E types, early Minis etc where there is enough will power among a few individuals to set up a business dedicated to keeping these classics going even down to them buying the original machines and jigs from the factory to reproduce all the panels and structural parts even to be able to fabricate a complete new shell if required. Jensen | Martin Robey

Yes, I understand you but I'll have to try and dig some references out that help in that regard. I mentioned the fire aspect with the Electric Classic Cars attempt at dispelling the myth as an example of how people don't seem able to us common sense and how simple facts simply can go over peoples heads because they have already brought into the philosophy and can't see the wood for the .trees. Sometimes people need to stop taking things that they are told at face value and examine things more, look under the stone, look beyond the obvious to make sure there is not a giant Gotcha waiting just around the corner. Pluralistic ignorance may account for some of it, rather like the Emperors New Clothes.

Well for years that was all I could get as a company car user until I gained seniority status and even more so today is all that many people can afford with wages being effectively going in reverse over the years in many sectors of the work force. Think your self lucky that either can afford a better class of car or have an employer who thinks you deserve a better car, there are many people right now who would love something better but can't.

I don't need an engine, I'm just getting a price for the benefit of this discussion with regard to engine cost v battery cost.

I'll try and find them again when I have more time to spare, but I subscribe to Stuart Fillingham channel, Geoff buys cars and also Petrol Ped along with a host of others including Electric Classic Cars and in the video below Moggy sets out to prove that electric cars bursting into fire is a myth and he tried to show that a Lithium Ion cell, a 18650 (which Tesla use 7104 of these in Model 3 battery pack) and you will see that he dons all the safety gear just in case he was able to get the 18650 to go into a thermal runaway by smashing it with a club hammer while the cell was laying on its side. He failed and claimed that he had proved it was a myth. Such information is both misleading and also dangerous, and clearly showed that he was out of his depth with regard to the process of cells becoming unstable. To create an internal short circuit the cell plates, anode and cathode must be brought into contact with each other and the best way of doing that is to drive a metal object into and penetrate the cell sideways so the metal object punches through both electrodes and the separator as demonstrated in one of the other videos I have already posted links to. By Moggy bashing the hell of the 18650 cell like he does, he is really only deforming the cell and therefore not rupturing the electrodes or the separator so, not causing the desired short circuit internally. Also a flat 18650 is going to be considerably less dangerous than a fully charged one, again that is shown in the video I mentioned above. YouTube channels can be very informative and entertaining, but they can also be misleading and lull people into a false sense of security, and they then think that is safe and that they themselves are now knowledgable in these things because of what they have seen. I said before, it is not until you learn something that you truly understand just how little you do know and sadly sometimes that manifests itself by someone having an accident because they thought something was safe when it wasn't because they did not fully understand it in the first instance and give it enough respect. The next time, if they are lucky enough to be given a 2nd chance, they will. How many people involved in this thread are fully qualified electrical engineers (and we are talking electrics here) and understand just how an EV works or even understands the basics of Ohms Law. And now a video that actually shows the construction of a 18650 cell and there is clearly shows why Moggy in his video was not able to get a reaction with the hammer as the separator was still doing its job of keeping the anode and cathode apart from each other. A clear example of how a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Hmm, not to sure about them just being converted and getting them insured without some sort of certification process before they will insure them, this is all new uncharted waters and perhaps there is somebody on the forum who is in insurance and could give us an opinion on that. I know every time I get insurance on my car, they always ask about any changes that might have been made to the car that were not as per original specification, even down to changing out the wheels for ones that were not the same as originally supplied. When that nice, thoughtful and careful other driver wrote my car off and I went to make a claim, that question was asked once again. I'm guessing that if you were to so no, and they did subsequently find out that I had swapped the wheels, or fitted a larger engine, had the ECU remapped to give more performance, that they use that to disqualify the claim or at least modify and settlement downwards because the car was not the way it was declared when they quoted the premium.

Not at all, there literally many thousands of cars all over the country that have been purchased solely for the purpose of popping to the shops, keeping contact with elderly local relatives etc because local transport is not suitable for them and that can be from a mobility view point, personal safety concerns etc and may only being doing 20 or so miles a week and I see reports claiming that EVs need to be driven 50,000+ miles before they can begin to be greener overall then a petrol engine in terms of CO2 which is what net-zero is all about, and diesel engines, particularly I'm given to understand from Euro 6 onwards produce even less CO2 than their petrol counterparts, in which case it could be greener with diesel. Still have vested interests.

Given that I'm 75 now, I'd say that is almost certainly going to be the case, so I'm not really concerned about how it will affect me, it's just the principle that I find distasteful and wondering if when we have burnt all our bridges to fossil fuel engines that they might then decide, that they had it all wrong as they discover something nasty that EVs do to humans health etc. just as they did with diesel. So in a way I'm thinking about future generations, when with a really concentrated effort a complete break through for ICE might just be around the corner, with a little bit enticement to do more research.

By the way, I just went to edit my post in reply to @wyx087 to add in that the Audi TT was 20 years old with just 1,820 genuine miles, and he has other cars kept in identical conditions with similar mileage figures. Just look around on AutoTrader and similar sites and you find similar low mileage cars being offered for sale. In cases like that, an EV car will have generated far greater emissions before it even rolls out of the showroom.

Nobody is currently apart from certain employees maybe forced to drive EVs, but come 2030 anyone who wants to buy a brand-new car will not a choice, it will have to be some form of EV but I can see that will not last for long before they mandate that ICE cars of a certain vintage will not be allowed on the roads and from then on they will get steadily more aggressive until there are no ICE cars allowed on the roads, then they will turn their attention onto hybrids. The only thing that will stop them is if some sort of massive runaway event occurs, with a lot of lives being lost. Although, thinking about it, that sort of happened with the Grenfell Tower blaze, but they still carried on building with flammable cladding on the outside, so maybe they won't change course.

You said in an earlier post dealing with the range, a quick stop and a 10-minute rapid charge. I was saying that do all cars have the capability of a rapid charge, I know the Telsla and Porsche do but about the more everyday cheaper end of the spectrum cars, are they capable of accepting a rapid charge? Well the first 2 are more to do with electrical engineering than motor industry therefore increased work for their members building the required infrastructure and the 3rd is a university in America, which may have interests not declared, i.e., need to know who is bankrolling them for their reports and what linkage to those people have to other things going on around the world etc. The above statement is incorrect, it all depends on how often and for how many miles the cars are driven, many cars are sold at auctions many years after they were purchased and they have garage queens for most of their life with only a few thousand miles on the clock. I personally know the owner of a few cars like that, keeps the cars in air-conditioned bubbles with battery savers plugged it to keep the battery topped up. He recently sold at auction a Audi TT 4WD with 1,820 miles on the clock. Ok, what about the IEEE, IET and MIT? What interest do they have for mass EV adoption? Think about it, Power companies, of course they have a vested interest, they want to sell you their power don't they? Electric in a battery is very like liquid petrol/diesel, if you spill or leave the filler cap off, liquid fuel will evaporate and you get zero benefit from it, likewise electric in a battery will not remain there for ever, batteries will self discharge internally, very slowly. Now when it comes to cars, you can only drive the car in both cases by using either the liquid fuels you mentioned or battery, when it comes to your cooling example, there some AC plants around that use liquid fuels just as you can liquid fuel powered heaters, often used in caravans and even in some Skodas you have diesel powered heating that you can even control from a phone app to preheat the car in really cold countries. So the battery really is nothing more than a fuel tank, full of fuel when charged and empty when its discharged. Yeah, unfortunately like you said once before a Golf is a ICE car firstly that has been modified to become EV, and is seen as a premium brand, this will make it a fairly expensive car, maybe a Renault Zeo or a Vauxhall Corsa might have been a better example. Elon Musk understands that he needs to be in the mass market area and that is why he has said that he hopes to be launching a cheaper car for the mass market about 2025ish. Thanks for explaining how to do this kind of post, it has been a big help, I'd been looking for a solution for some time, once again thanks.

Yep, its well and good people advocating the use of 2nd hand battery packs but if you had any issues with them, or the car was involved in an accident and the insurance company discovered that you had fitted 2nd battery other than the 12v one. I'd expect them to wash their hands of any responsibility leaving you to pick up the tab, including the other parties claim if it was deemed to be your fault. We have to remember that the insurance companies also have access to data that we don't. I fully expect that their reluctance in respect to 2nd hand battery is because they have extra knowledge that is not in the public domain.

The problem is still higher no matter which way it is dressed up, Telslas are still seen as premium brands and it is the mass market cars like the Golf that most people can hope of affording, surely you're not suggesting that folk who cannot afford a better class of car which will retain a higher value should go carless are you???

The problem being is that the battery is not akin to a new engine, though. It is in reality, just a glorified fuel tank and that is it in its simplest form, the engine would be the electric motor(s), this makes it very hard to fully grasp the cost comparison between EV and ICE. The higher purchase price of an EV is a major stumbling block for many, yes I know that many people will say that you have to look at the total package from cradle to grave. But there are many things that make that view point irrelevant, the biggest and most obvious one is no one knows what the prices for electric V fossil fuels are going to be from 1 month to the next. But assuming they are right, you still need to be able to afford the ticket to the dance in the first instance.

That being so, you could still buy 5.5 golf engines for the cost of one battery and unless you're unlucky, you would more than likely not need a new engine anyway, the car will often find its way to the scrap year with its original engine still going strong. As a matter of interest, I'm waiting for a quote back from a supplier of reconditioned engines for my Superb just to get some ideas of the cost.