Graham Butcher

You are right about the tax angle, although I'm not sure about the actual percentage of tax, I could look it up, but the principle is correct. It really is an insult to be paying tax on tax, but that's the way it is and there is nothing I can do about it. With all the tax hike that this government are looking at placing on the motorists, I think that you EV owners should be starting to feel the pressure increasing on you as a lot of the black hole in the nations finances are down to the concessions you have been enjoying in the past, and to some extent, still are. Grants to help buy, BIK tax rates lower, cheap vat on the electric when home charging, zero VED has also been part of it, even in some places, free parking has also been given. It would not surprise me if some of those are withdrawn or seriously reduced, it cannot be allowed to continue much longer. I'm also not sure just what you mean by the real "Truth", but I suspect that you mean that EV's are better for the environment and that they are not a fire hazard, to that I still say, let's wait and see what the future shows up on that issue. I suspect that similar arguments took place years ago when diesel was hailed by various governments as the fuel of choice and was actively promoted like electric cars are today. I still stand by your rights to have whatever type of car you want, be it petrol, diesel or electric, LPG etc and that given time any issues will be resolved with any of them. I mean petrol, used to kill from the carbon monoxide fumes in a confined space, that is no more with the advent of catalytic convertor. Diesel, used to be a really dirty fuel, you could see the black soot particles belching from the tailpipe, DPFs and EGR systems have now reduced that by 96% and is within 1 or 2% of the emissions from a modern petrol engine, so huge strides have been made and I see no reason why the same steps should not be made with battery technology over the years. My only real gripe with battery vehicles is that I totally disagree with the push towards going all new vehicles having to be electric by law, where is the personal choice in that and I just can't help but wonder, if there was zero incentives given an electric cars in any format, just how many of them would be on the roads today? Guess is just a few, in a similar fashion to vehicles converted to run on LPG. We know that there was a push towards diesel years ago and is one reason for the popularity of it today, so just maybe without governments interference in the markets over the years, petrol would still be the major fuel today? At the end of the day who knows, only the fullness of time and results will prove one-way or the other.

I get that, BUT, I was under the impression that we were talking the cost of public charging that holiday hire car you was talking about compared to the cost of public charging here in the UK, not portable domestic power packs, hence my confusion 🤔.

This Kia PV5 modular van base looks to be quite interesting. Yes, I understand about special tarrifs for those who can charge at home, but I was talking about those who can't, and of course, the conversation started about the low cost of charging your holiday rental EV, not your UK rates.

This Kia PV5 modular van base looks to be quite interesting.

To be fair, I don't think there any batteries that have the thousands all in the same pack, but those smaller packs are all in the same overall metal container and even with the fireman port, it does assume that they can actually arrive at the scene before the battery gets to the thermal runaway position, which is just minutes or even seconds as can be seen in many of the online security cameras that capture many of them. The modules are still packed extremely close to each other as can be seen in this photo, so it doesn't take much to set the other modules off.

Nobody is saying or claiming that these things regularly burst into an uncontrollable blaze, but they do indeed catch fire occasionally, that is undeniable unless you ignore the facts. Yes, ICE cars can and do catch fire and most car fires do not involve in the batteries, or their equivalent on an ICE car, the fuel tank, which is precisely what the battery is, a fuel tank. Both diesel and petrol require some external ignition source to catch fire, battery is made up of thousands of individual cells, connected to together in a combination of series and parallel circuits to achieve both the voltage and the current rating, all along with loads of battery management modules, all of which have loads of electronic parts in them and are always directly to the cells monitoring them and regulating them. It only requires a single cell to develop a problem and start off gassing, getting hotter etc and then you have a problem. The equipment we all have indoors, generally does not consist of more than 1 or 2 cells and are also of limited capacity, so they cannot really be compared to a EV battery pack in a car, they are far less likely to catch fire. Now I fully expect that many of the so called EV fires do not involve the batteries but sort of normal vehicle electrical malfunction or something the owner/driver has done, like a discarded cigarette that wasn't fully snuffed out, or a phone charger lead that has gone faulty and has been left plugged in. This actually happened to me in my diesel Superb, my son had been charging his iPhone and when he got out disconnected it from the phone, but left it plugged into the car. Luckily I happened to look back at the car, as you do at times, and saw the car filling up with smoke and went to investigate and saw the phone lead glowing red hot, so I snatched it out from the cars USB socket and the only damage done was it had scorched the leather on the passenger seat between the seat and the centre consol. A close shave indeed, but it does show just how easy it is to start a fire inside a car, and he and SWMBO still to this day are guilty of the same thing at home, leaving the charging lead, laying around, still plugged into the wall charger, which itself is still active, that's all it takes. I have to go round and unplug the wall chargers just in case.

Yet more recent fires in underground carparks, both residential and office and all started by EV's and shows the dangers and also actually highlights how a buildings design can help contain fires.

@lol-lol yeah that is the real difference maker, there with following the rules as in the handbook and brimming the tank, strikes me that the hire company was just out looking to make as much money from what they see as "foreigners" as the ice cream vans at well-known tourists spots in London. Don't forget that sadly we live in rip off Brittain were everything is geared up to maximise the profits of the fat cats who will store the cash in offshore tax havens to avoid any of it ever returning into the UK economy and the fact that as you say, the price of electricity and public charging is so low over there, proves that our prices are kept at an artificially high price. It has never been hidden that we have the most expensive domestic fuel prices in Europe.

No rant, it has been demonstrated to be afake set of figures issued after the event, just as they were before its introduction. That is why the deputy mayer had get their consultant to alter the wording of thier report

Yes, they are but they are also beneficiaries of the special concession rates and the 5% VAT on home electric (those who can and do charge at home). I just wonder how they would fare if they had complete parity with ICE cars etc, i.e. a level playing field where the buyer had a free choice of any of the fuel types on offer, just how many would opt for electric etc, and what type of car would they be, family cars, SUV or city cars? As a side note, I also know that many people here advocate driving for no more than 2.5 hours without taking a break, but many of us are also ex, or existing HGV or bus drivers, and HGV drivers must not drive longer than 4.5 hours at a time, and bus drivers must take a break after 5.5 hours driving, and hence why I say that many will prefer driving direct to destination and direct back home at the end of the day, they will not want to stop for a break and charge. Having been a lorry driver for around 4 years and also have driven buses, I know that they require considerably more skill and concentration than a car takes, so it should not be difficult to drive a car without the need for break after 2.5 hours, be they EV or ICE, makes no difference.

Oh, I can understand the charges OK, except the EV ones, and here is why, ice is very quick to fill a tank for the next client, but EV, if low on SOC will take a time to get to 100% before they let the car be rented again. The rules of hire are all explained before you rent, and it's bad planning to leave refilling the tank till the very last filling station, as you are an EV owner and thus used to planning charging stops, I'm somewhat surprised that you got caught out. If you are then for any reason, unable to fill up, you leave yourself wide open to the costs as per agreement. If you filled a few kms away, the gauge would still show full and you would be many Euros better off, they only go by the gauge. As to racing noise and the nimbus, they must have known that the circuit was there, so why move into a house close to a circuit? We have the same issues in the UK with people complain to the RAF and International Airports about the planes making noises on landing and takeoff, FFS. Electric racing will never hold the same amount of drama as it is the noise that adds the extra dimension and just the sound alone can convey the impression of speed so even partially sighted people can actually enjoy motorsports. Sorry, but I don't get this obsession with the shear acceleration that EVs have, people are getting killed with cars that do 0 to 60 in 8 secs, so how many more deaths will there be 0 to 60 in 2 secs?

Oh dear, you all seem to be getting completely the wrong impression, I never said that there was any problem with them fitting some peoples usage patterns or for the occasional longer trips, if you can accommodate and factor in the odd rest point with a spot of charging. But that however is not everyone's idea of motoring pleasure. Some prefer to drive straight to their destination, do whatever it is/was that they went there for and then drive all the way back again, without any planned stops for rest etc. They will have had plenty of time to make use of the restroom facilities at their destinations, so are only interested in getting back home to their families ASAP, especially as they may have been on the road since 4AM to get to their destination in order get a decent spot. Get there too late and often, you will be turned away by the Police etc as there is no safe place to park your car etc, and then on top of that, you may be there until 8PM and then have a 3 hour or maybe longer drive home. Stopping to charge just adds to that long drive home and means that you may be at greater risk by so doing. You clearly are able to charge at home, hence the savings in fuel, but as I mentioned earlier, that is not the case for millions of others. One thing I would add to this as well is, don't be surprised if those running cost take a sudden upward trend, as more EVs find their way onto the roads, the lost revenue from VED and fuel duty will have to be clawed back in other ways, the government and normal motorists cannot continue to bankroll you EV boys forever, because that is precisely what is happening right now, you are enjoying those running costs as the ordinary tax payers are picking up the slack, so that's not really fair on others either, and just adding to the social divide I eluded earlier

I wasn't implying that you did say they were for everyone. The fact electricity is almost universally available everywhere in the UK, does not mean that the motorist will always have access to it though, most of it will be in private buildings and they would take a dim view of someone asking to plug in their car I'm sure 😉 What I was implying is that there is a shortage of public fast / super chargers and also destination chargers. At the place where 2 of my son's work, they have wall mounted chargers there for the directors only, the staff nope, not even one, so that means that I have yet to see a single EV car among the plebs so to speak. Also many of the places I go to do plane spotting at various air bases, again, there is not a single charger in the area or within walking distance even. When attending air displays, there are thousands of cars parked in the designated spaces on the airbase and the surrounding fields, again no means of charging while watching, so that means adding even more time onto the already long times for driving to and from in order to top the range to complete the round trip, and those in the areas nearest to them are going to be crammed with long queues waiting their turn at the chargers. That means that you and a few others are the more sensible ones and nothing like the evangelists who simply cannot hear anything negative said about them and going about the air quality etc, which is as it happens exceptionally good overall as it has been in the UK for a decade or more now so has nothing to do with EV's low emission zones etc, but everything to with manufacturing going overseas and ICE engines getting to somewhat better, with 96% less emissions since about 1992. 👍

I wish you would just stop this, see my reply to @Stonekeeper for answers to that question, which is once again, something that I have already explained many times before. Yes I get it EV's do have other benefits as well, but they also have drawbacks.

I'm happy for you that the EV fits your needs nicely, but what about when the distance is greater than your range and there is not the facility to be on charge at your destination. Many of the places I visit are miles away from any real civilization and could be there from dawn to late at night before driving back home again. That would force me to have to find a charger on route and even more time onto the journey. Compare that (currently) with the ability to fill my tank before setting off, and I'm good for over 500 miles at least before I need to add more fuel. I'm perfectly sure that if people could charge easily at home, and also at least get to their destination on a single charge, plug it when they get there (work etc) and it can charge them enough to get them back home, that many more people would adopt them, they have so many other things in their favour besides just running costs (assuming home charging is the norm). I'm afaid that I still firmly believe that the sensible thing to do is have EV's as part of the consumer choice and as technology improves that it might well be that most newer cars would be EVs in due course, but until, then the EV mandate should be dropped.

No not all, I have freely admitted that ICE cars can and do catch fire, but unlike you, I do not and have never tried to make out that everything with ICE is all fine and good and I'm perfectly willing to accept that like all things in life, they come with pros and cons. Now compare that position with yours, you can never accept, anything even slightly negative about EV's. I get it that you love your EV and I'm genuinely pleased for you that they suit your lifestyle perfectly, but that is not the case for everyone, as I and other have attempted to point in the past to you. The first requirement ideally is to have off street parking and be able to have the authority to arrange for a home charger to be installed, something that millions of people don't have. How about those living in multitenancy buildings, like bedsits, block of apartments, towers of flats etc? You would have them being treated like a lower class of citizen, forced into using expensive public chargers and wasting loads of their time sitting around while getting a charge in order to avoid a fine for running over the prescribed time limit which eats into the operators profits as it prevents other from using the charger, while you sleep all smug in your bed safe in the knowledge that you are not causing problems to other with your off street parking, charging and getting a first class deal on price of the Lecky as well. Just man up it about and accept that it may never happen that some people could emulate your position, but as far as you're concerned, you seem that you could not care about others at all. EV's are currently a major social and economic divider, unlike ICE, as anyone who can drive could quite happily live with one of those in their life and have done for over a century. The only way that they create social divides is in the value, type and sheer size of the cars, all of which also are 100% applicable to EVs as well.

I don't know the answer to that question, but those 2 people in the video claim to be software engineers, so I'd be more inclined to take their word that it is possible, then a keyboard warrior who thinks its not possible. When you go to see your Doctor or Dentist and they prescibe some prescription or proceedure to be done, do you disagree with what they say, or do you accept that they know more than you do about their own field of expertise?

That is an easy one to solve, it only 5 minutes to top up the tank in an ICE yourself, also fuel stations are still far more common than EV chargers, so pop into a fuel station, top up the tank to the same level as it was when you picked up the car. They always record the tank level on the rental form and thus expect the car to come back with the same, if not then, of course they are going to charge you for it, it's the same in the UK. It is also incidently, the same proceedure with any courtsey car loaned to you while your car is in the workshop being serviced/repaired, nothing new or unusual about that. Know that I'd prefer to spend a few minutes of my holiday, filling the tank than hanging around at a charger for far longer before driving to the rental yard.

This is food for thought, and it looks like it is NOT restricted to just EV's but the more recent cars of all kinds of power train which may have a phone app for it is well, but most modern cars are connected in some form or other to the internet, and so your security and your car etc could very well be exposed and at the very least, open yet another avenue for car theft? This data theft has just occurred to the 2 people who the MacMaster is talking to, are the ones who have had their data compromised and they are actual software engineers and they are saying that it would be possible for hackers to take control of a car armed with the information that has been harvested. Scam messages have already been received following the data breach. What are you thoughts about this??

Here is another video about the real hazards of electric cars, even if the battery does enter into thermal runaway, please don't just refuse to watch and listen to the video, it could actually help save your life one day.

Oh dear, these electric cars which feature electric/electrinic door handles/locks entraping the occupants inside to be burnt alive because they could not open the doors and likewise rescuers cannot open them from outside either. Now many EV'ers have made claims about people being burnt alive following being trapped inside their cars after a crash. This video now throws fresh light on those claims and when you see the wreckage of those peoples cars you will see that the claims are totally bogus, so it is not a case of ICE drivers throwing out misinformation, but EV owners attempting to deflect the truth and are actually giving out misinformation themselves. Also there is more information about the burning Nissan Leaf, which highlights even bigger issues with EV's burning, that is wahy they cannot use water on them until the batteries have burnt themselves out, because the toxic is an even bigger problem once it enters into drainage and water system.

Then that also by definition suggests driver error as well as I cannot believe that such issues don't have some physical influence on the way that the vehicle feels when driven.

We don't actually know precisely what caused the fire at this stage, but what we can 100% rule out is the tractor unit caused it or diesel caused the fire as the tractor unit and indeed th BYD that was above the tractor unit were not involved in the fire at the outset as this photo taken at the scene proves, so diesel on this occasion cannot be blamed. I see brakes overheating has put been put forward as a theory, but surely, if the brakes were getting that hot, they would expand even more and jam the trailer brakes full on and stop the lorry altogether? On my diesel Kodiaq, if the hand brake is on, the car will not go anywhere, the same on my Superb wouldn't either.

That is only applicable if you are just doing city driving, but if you have been out on a longer run and did some destination charging when you got there, then on your return trip, something happens on to cause the road to be completely shut and a long detour or a long wait with the heater etc in use, then you could be in a spot of bother. For instance the other day the M5 was completely shut due to a car transporter which had 7 BYD Atos catch fire on it and lengthy diversion routes were in force.

I have been trained as a fire fighter, I was in a factory firefighting team, in a factory which had massive stockpiles of timber, tons of special adhesives, solvents, all kinds of foam sheets, rubber, and simply mases of cardboard as we were producing highly specialised packing crates, cartons and harnesses along with suspensions systems for Marconi Marine, Marconi Radar, Marconi Radio and English Electric Valve Co, all part of the Marconi group who were making all kinds special radio, radar, television and outside broadcast vans, communication equipment and valves for massive transmitters, so yes, we had to be aware of just what was on fire and also access the dangers of other materials becoming involved in said fire. The plain truth is however, that most ICE car fires do not actually involve their fuel, most are caused by electrical faults within the car or smoking etc. and I have witnessed firsthand many ICE fires and petrol does not explode, it is the build-up of fumes that make up a explosion hazard, which is unlikely that will occur.