Graham Butcher

OK, the point about PFS was that they do crop up (in England) at least right slap bang at road side on most of the major roads, whereas the main large EV hubs are normally located at a convenient spot where the National Grid passes close by because of the huge power demands when all the chargers are in use, especially if they are of the 300+Kw types, others you will get throttling and power-sharing just as that Gridserve whistle-blower reported and also many other EV drivers on YouTube have likewise reported that they have seen their charging speed drop as other cars are being plugged in. Also if you could wipe the fact that you charge at home so that you wouldn't stop for a charge and think outside your bubble can you then see the point that was making is correct. In other words, the trip being undertaken was to long for your EV (no home charging) without needing to visit a public charger, just as you did with the VW transporter, Both diesel pump and Charger are at the same location and you needed a comfort break (which was what I understood by the way it was written) then the ONLY difference between the EV and the ICE is the real-time filling of the ICE, I'm NOT interested in the overall time of doing both, just added time of filling a tank, the rest will be the same as you will still need time to the comfort break + eating etc in both cases.

That to me makes perfect sense, the right tool for the right job, sadly though for many people, myself included, I'm limited on both a cost basis and storing basis, limited to a single car, so that also currently means that only an ICE is right for me. For the many short runs I have to make, an EV with home charging makes sense but not economic sense.

That is precisely what I said 🙄, the ICE out number the electric cars on the road today, so obviously, you will see more ICE fires than you see EV fires and you are far more likely to see a HEV or PHEV fire than you are a BEV fire simply because they not only have a greater number, but are also far more complicated so there is more to go wrong. I simply cannot understand why this even being discussed, when it is so blatantly obvious that the balance of probability of a fire between the types is heavily biased to the ICE, but only because there are more of them, but also because more of them are older than the EVs and thus ageing has taken its toll and also poor maintenance plays a major part as well. Why cannot anyone get past this point, it is sadly a real sticking point with so many EV owners/drivers and an accepted fact of life with ICE owners/drivers. I'll say once again, I'm not an EV bashing Luddite, I'm an electrical engineer for crying out loud, so of course I'm going to be highly interested in electric cars, and at the same time I can see drawbacks to them which is in the main part the batteries.

No there is NO we are getting there, the points you keep making were never in question, that is a given factor and is understood, If you personally were driving it would make zero difference if you were in ICE or an EV so you tell me, that you would still require a comfort break, correct? When I mentioned about @domhnall saying about plugging in a EV and it charges itself, I was trying to say that UNTIL the cable or the fuel nozzle is inserted that no filling or charging is taking place, from that point you can 100% ignore the EV, I was not ever making any comparisons with the EV, it was all about the true time of filling the ICE tank full stop. Also ignore your claim that an ICE vehicle must have minimum of 10min preparation before trip or otherwise when it needs refuelling is non-deterministic. Could be less than 100 miles into the trip and a comfort break isn't needed, because that is not needed in every case as I have demonstrated. All modern cars like mine have a accurate trip computer, which just like an EV will give you a predicted range figure and a satnav will give a total trip distance, so no guess work involved. Why is it that EV people automatically assume everything is EV bashing, it is NOT. This country is still one that allows people to make a free choice and I'm so happy that we can all enjoy that freedom and I fully respect your choice was to go electric while mine currently given the circumstances is to remain with ICE. If circumstances change than my choice might well change, so why the hell can't you accept that as a fact and stop being an amateur psychologist and making out that you can read my mind, because I keep telling you, you could not be further from the truth if you tried. This is what I say about context, you have to understand how important that is. To coin a phrase, I'm only pointing out the bleeding obvious, honest Gov. 😀

Still not quite seeing the picture that I'm painting. So lets try and establish a few clarifying points. Were you starting the journey from Livingston? which is the information I gleaned from your posts (tbh they were not very clear about start - finish or routes taken, so assumptions had to be made) Then you said in a later post that it was clear that I was not familiar with A68 and in among all the posts you said somewhere that the Costco was the 1st PFS you came across. So when I tried to work out what was happening, looking at the mapping programs I have I could see that A68 was devoid of PFS and that it joined the Edinburgh bypass on the right of the map and it showed Costco was to the left of that junction, so it seemed logical that you were either intending going south on the A68, or coming north on it. Then I discovered about Costco only having 20 stations (all members only) in the whole of the UK, it become pretty obvious that you would have ignored Sainsburys (the 1st PFS) with Costco only a few hundred metres away because you was a member it would have no sense to use Sainsburys when you would lost on the massive savings that were on offer at Costco, hence why I assumed (logically) that was your intention anyway although you say otherwise. So lets now play devil's advocate here, and this is what my logic was telling me, lets assume you were were driving your EV and needed a charge to make it either to your destination or to home and your EV satnav told you that there was a free charger at say Costco, then you would have had to make the exact same deviation from the bypass, and back again and while the EV was charging, had a comfort break, OK? Now substitute the EV for your diesel, still needing fuel and you're needing a comfort break, now the ONLY difference between the ICE and EV is the actual time you spent pumping diesel into your tank, then you went off and did your comfort break. So the only difference between those two scenarios is the EV would be charging while you have the break but the ICE adds extra time before your break, OK? Thats is why I say it is unfair to claim the extra time on for queueing and leaving and rejoining the bypass. If I was doing a trip like that, I would have made a shopping trip to Tesco (I don't have an account at Costco and the nearest one is over 20 miles), done some shopping, then Tesco PFS on the way out of their carpark and back home. Then later on or next day, made that trip and would not have needed to make a stop for fuel (I may have needed a comfort break), and hence why I said about preparation before, so for me that preparation was zero really because I usually have to make two or three trips to Tesco for fresh fruit / veg etc anyway, so no special preparation is needed. But if I needed to make a comfort trip then I would have made that same deviation from the bypass that you made and that extra time on the trip was purely for comfort only. The mention of sitting in the car that I made in the original post, was NOT aimed at you, check what I wrote and I think you will see that I said that some people may do that. I'm amazed that although the VW transporter has no built-in satnav, that you don't either have an aftermarket screen mounted one or an app on your phone. I chose the TomTom Go510 (even though the Superb does have its own, it does have regular map updates, or POI like PFS and charge locations and also does not have speed camera warnings, which the TomTom does and get regular free updates for life (at least I get them for life as long as my unit keeps working). Had you had something like that, then as you saw from the those screen prints there are a multitude of PFS in the Livingston and Loanhead areas that you might otherwise have been unaware of.

Agreed, but that was just analogy, if you need to have a comfort break, then you need one, but for the sake of argument, if you were on your own and filling your Octavia, and then clearing the forecourt to allow other drivers to use the pump, while you went and did your business, the time taken to fill your Octavia, is still the time it took from pulling up at the pump, filling, paying and then driving away from the pump, it does not include the time to reach the pump, nor the time waiting, nor the toilet break or the time to get back onto the route. The only difference in reality (ignoring the charging time, assuming you needed to charge, will always be slower), is that with EV, it would be charging while your having your toilet break, you would still have to exit the route and rejoin the route afterwards, agreed?

No problem.

That is my belief as well, hence why I poked the tube into each of the outlet vents and gave 6 or 7 good sprays of silicon in each of them without much success.

The screen prints below are taken from my TomTom route planner, which as you can see lists 12 PFS in the Livingston area, and again another 12 in and around the Loanhead area, and the Esso is the one on the right side of the bypass on the exit before the one you took to Costco. So it would seem that my aftermarket satnav has a better database than that in your Enyaq? I just asked it to show me finning stations in the area and bingo there they are. I can see from what you say above that you have not grasped what I'm saying about "filling". Filling is more than plugging a cable in or a put a nozzle in, that is the start of the process, the rest is the time that stand there squeezing the trigger, and putting nozzle back in the pump holder and finished paying for the fuel, and in the case of your Tesla, its plugging the cable in, then taking your walk etc, and then unplugging the cable and paying for the Lecky. The time taken to reach the charger, plus queueing (if there is a queue) then rejoining back on your route again is not filling or charging time is it? If your Tesla needed a top up charge on route, you still have to go to the charger and then return to the route again. I mean if both charger and pump, were at the roadside, is it not true that the Enyaq would be ready to go even if you weren't, far quicker than the Tesla would be? As to ICE being far more likely to catch fire than EV cars, that comes as no surprise to me or anybody else given the vast numbers of them compared to their EV counterparts. The other part of the equation is that most of the ICE number are way older than the EVs and therefore will be in far worse condition overall than the EV cars and many will be bangers with DIY repairs and bodges applied etc. I disagree about being at greater risk with phones and laptops, vapes etc, I could explain in more depth but here is not the place for that kind of discussion, if you're keen to go more in depth I could message you. As to the pollution angle, well that has a far more to with the batteries catching fire than any emissions as the only emissions will from the tyres and the brakes.

No, I dont seem able to take it out, I have dropped the glove box, I can see the filter but how to remove it. I assumed that the filter was in the feed to the system?

Ok, I can accept that, but your post was very cryptic but there was still the Esso PFS the junction before the A701 junction and then still the Sainsbury PFS before Costco. That said, as I said before I don't blame you, given those prices, I'd have done the same thing, except I couln't because I'm not a member. But the debacle has been over you claiming that filling an ICE car in 5 minutes is for the birds! To most people filling a car starts when you put the nozzle in the tank, squeeze the trigger, fill it till the pump switches off, replace the nozzle, pay for the fuel and get back in the car, job done and noway on earth is that longer then 5 minutes is it. Time taken to leave the bypass, get to the pump and back again is not filling nor is it charging if the car was EV, both process start with getting to the energy source, filling the tank, or topping up the battery and replacing the hose or the charging cable full stop. Are finally going to agree on that point and move on? I'm not a Luddite trying to rubbish EVs, unlike some people think I am, What I am is just a person who is sceptical that the technology is the right way forward at this point in time given the issues with the batteries if they catch fire which many are now getting concerned about. Like I keep saying, I remember how governments were pushing diesels, all the incentives being given out, and we all now know how that turned out, I concerned that we are maybe going down the same route again, once bitten, twice shy.

Completely untrue, I just don't accept things coming from certain quarters at face value such as governments and their paid for reports. How many billions around the world fell for the diesel guff only to be told their cars pollute more and we should be changing them? And there are many other examples like that. I can't be bothered to discuss it further with you when you only see what you want to see, closed mindset. If you disagree with things I post then save yourself and put me on your list of blocked members then you won't have to read anything I post again.

I just used the short flexy tube that came with the silicon grease and inserted it though the air vent grill and blasted it into the ductwork hoping that it would work its way down to the flaps, it didn't work too well for me, so I'm keen to see how you get on.

@wyx087no I have not changed the goalposts, you are failing to comprehend the context and the points in question. Nobody is questioning the point about EVs being more convenient, why wouldn't they be if your daily drives are within the cars range so you can enjoy the cheapest possible charging, and it charges overnight and no driving to a PFS or charger, I have said before, if that works for you then it's a no-brainer, let's acknowledge that fact shall we? Fact is that @domhnallis trying to say that my and the experience of others who have posted here claiming that they can "refuel" their car in 5 minutes or less is utter rubbish and in his own words, "From the point where I left the Edinburgh bpyass, got to costco (the first filling station I passed) filled up and got back on the bypass it was 25 minutes. This idea that you take 5 minutes is for the birds" Is the whole point in question. He was going to Costco in any case, so not a diversion to get fuel, and it was not the first filling station he passed if he was on the A68 as later claimed, that would make Costco the 3rd filling station and the 25 minutes is part of the total journey time and not the time taken to fill up with diesel. So in essence @domhnallis doing much the same as you do, whether it is deliberate or subconsciously, I don't know, but you both appear to do it, attempt to demonstrate just how superior the EV is to ICE cars. I think we all get the message about home charging, yes its cheaper, yes its more convenient but every single time anyone mentions that they can fill their ICE car from empty to full in approximately 5 minutes you all have to throw in comfort break, eating etc and while you;re doing that, the EV is charging. I suggest that for many EV drivers, the comfort breaks and eating / drinking are just something that they do to fill in the time while waiting to get enough charge in their battery, others may sit in their cars and use their phones etc. But it is true that for many they would not being those things if it were not forced upon them by the fact that their car needs more energy to continue their journey. You don't have to try and rubbish the ICE car and their drivers at every opportunity, but so many do.

Thank you for trying to throw some clarity on the subject. I shop at Tesco so shopping first, fuel on the way out, combining both in the same trip makes perfect sense and as my tank is never that low on fuel so on long runs, there will always be a filling station right on my route should I need it, and yes it might cost 2 or 3p a litre more but it saves me so much time as I didn't have to drive across a busy city to save a few coppers. I might be tempted to do that trip if the tank was lower, but I would not have the audacity to try and claim the time taken travelling as time taken to fill the tank, the two things are entirely separate. Fuel pumps deliver at the same speed so the process of filling is pretty constant, unlike chargers which depending on location and type, range from 7kW upto 360kW I have a BP filling station just a few hundred metres away from me, but is 2p a litre dearer, and I have on occasions filled up there if in a real hurry.

Thank you for those observations, shame you were not a bit more diligent and looked at the last post where the same PFS is in use with his son's car this time. To use a Costco PFS you need to have registered an account with them which costs you an annual subscription fee. To gain access to Costco PFS you have to drive past a Sainsbury's PFS on the left, 2 more roundabouts to reach Costco and a bit further on the same estate is a 24Hr Asda PFS. Where A68 joins the A720 (Edinburgh bypass) driving to the first junction, there is a Tesco PFS 1.4 miles from the junction. Costco is a further 4 miles and off the 2nd junction on the bypass. Thus Costco was not the first PFS after leaving the A68, (as claimed) but was in fact the 3rd PFS and in view of the fact that Costco is member's only, it was his intended PFS, so therefore was planned into his journey. Something that you in particular have always claimed about planning the route is key, as an EV driver, so when driving an ICE car, do you automatically forget to plan your route??? PS the price of fuel is not the issue, it is still about time and being economical with the truth, if you know you're going to members only PFS (18 filling pumps) with prices like those you also expect to queue so it is NOT a typical experience of a normal ICE fillup.

No, I'm not an angry man at all, but you are being less than honest here with your choice of filling station and also on the "actual time" spent on filling an ICE car, you cannot include the time taken to drive to and from the station, nor can you include any time waiting, as these also things that you have to do at any public chargers for your EV car. You also have failed to disclose the reason why you went to Costco when there is a Sainsbury filling station before Costco and there is a Esso PFS 1.5 miles further along the Edinburgh bypass at the next junction and is much closer to the bypass as well, so I took the effort to find out seeing as they not very common stations in the UK, I also took the time to research how many filling stations across the UK the other brands have and as far as I'm aware nobody has the ability to refuel their ICE cars at home from a pump, which you mentioned in an earlier that cannot fill your fossil car at home but you could do your EV. So you clearly don't think that you should have to suffer the same problems as most other drivers do. So you are not comparing apples with apples, which is grossly unfair. The average price for petrol currently is around 132p to 134p a litre and diesel is 136p to 138p a litre and can can be purchased from any of more than 7.414 filling stations across the whole of the UK whereas you chose to use one of only 20 sites that Costco operate and given that your tale of having to queue for 10 minutes to get on a pump, is not a scene that will not resonate with most ICE drivers, there is no current fuel shortage, so I discovered that the reason is that you pay only 124.7p a litre for petrol and 129.3p a litre for diesel. Now I wonder at what were you going to disclose that snippet then (by the way, I don't blame for buying at that price if you can), I'd be doing the same if I could, but you have to have an account there (so it was not a spur of the moment thing, going to Costco was always in your plan, (so you knew that there was quicker PFS at Sainsburys as you drove by it on the way in and out of Costco) and given the increased range from refuelling to the brim, its not something that will be repeated anywhere as many times as you will plugging in your EV. to cover the same distance. So, no, I'm not an angry man but I'm a man who likes fairness and openness, which you have not demonstrated to me that you are, I get more reassuring vibes from Dave Takes It On than you are currently giving me by the constant twisting of facts and events rather than having to admit that it takes about 5 minutes to brim an ICE car for the average driver from the time of opening the filler cap, to paying for the fuel and driving away, something that you cannot do with an EV full stop. So here is the run-down on Costco And here is run down on the other filling stations, which is not complete at all as there are numerous companies such as Harvest fuels for instance What we do - Harvest Energy who also supply other outlets like Coop filling stations and my Local Skoda repair centre.

I think the points raised by Phill Moorhouse is that the last few ruling parties have been greenwashing the subject and doing their best to convince everyone that they were addressing the issues but in fact were doing nothing other than window dressing as it was earlier governments formed by their own party that created the situation where we own diddly squat and thus are no longer in control of our own destiny, we handed that over the overseas investors. Or to coin a phrase, so much for taking back control 😆

The point I think @Ootohere was making is that they have the surplus energy and that we are relying on them having it rather than creating our own. If we generate our own, than we should be able to generate it at far lower price than what we can buy it at and thus have the means to lower our energy bills. The interconnectors should really be there more for emergency use when we or they have problems that we can then help each out from time to time.

You're right about the VAT angle, for a start, and that was one of the many lies we all sold by politicians in the great should we or shouldn't we referendum back in 2016. We were told that if we did, then they would be able to cut or remove VAT on energy, cheaper food, shoes, cloths etc, in the end we did but we never got any of those promises, in fact, we got the complete opposite, (we have been promised and told so much over the years, only to discover later on they had it all wrong, or they never delivered what they promised), so often we are sold down the river by them. Public trust in them is at a all time low and they need to build public trust again. We are now subsidising energy prices etc for other countries as all of our utilities are no longer owned by British companies or people and great amounts of wealth is leaving our shores, when it used to be captive here and used here for the countries benefit. There is no reason to ever expect to see prices fall to the 25p per kwh that hope will be realised by Dogger Bank being switching on to the grid, we no longer have control of our natural resources and the regulators are powerless puppets. The only way we can get our energy prices to parity with our once closest neighbours is to take back full control by bringing them back into state ownership, just increasing the amount of green energy production is not going to do it, it will only generate more profits for the foreign owners and shareholders alike.

Oh, OK but does not explain the figures in the video that I posted by Phill Moorhouse.

Please step away from the magic mushrooms, you're making things up here that are not true. The context is important to understand. I will post links here now to my original post which @domhnall appears to have got the wrong end of the stick by thinking that that diesels had been claimed as outselling EVs, which clearly is not happening and he posts about it and then I post again saying I was not saying what he thought, but repeating the radio news which said that diesels sales up 17% this year compared to only 3% last year. There was never anything mentioned about Petrol or EVs. @domhnall made a mistake and you just couldn't resist having a go at me. https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/499506-the-truth-about-electric-cars/?do=findComment&comment=5887192 https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/499506-the-truth-about-electric-cars/?do=findComment&comment=5887347 https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/499506-the-truth-about-electric-cars/?do=findComment&comment=5887381

Not everyone can fit in with the restricted times, so you are not solving the problem, only giving me how you get round it, and that is because you have an EV and you use enough energy during the cheap periods to make it viable, not everyone can do that and most people don't have an EV. Why is it that most EV owners can only see things from their privileged positions and don't seem able to imagine things from the perspective of a person who is not in their position?

So that's it then is it, me saying prepare for the trip and fill up before setting, to you EV types always comes back to it at home. So you wouldn't ever think about doing it a day or so prior to the date, no, to you, it means on the day. I take it that also means you were never a boy scout, or you simply forgot their motto about being prepared? I also said it was bad to allow your fuel tank to be left without much fuel in it, the more fuel in it the better because the tank can get condensation inside and as a result water in the fuel which can cause the engine to cutout and also damage the engine, here an extract that explains this. So your journey time was increased by 22 minutes getting fuel, largely made up of the time it took get to and from the pump which was not actually on your precise route, so decided to call me out when I said that filling an ICE car takes 5 minutes https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/499506-the-truth-about-electric-cars/?do=findComment&comment=5886245 In that post you also claimed that it took you 25 minutes to go and refuelled, so which was it? The actual time it took you to put the nozzle into your filler cap, fill the tank, take the nozzle out and replace on the pump, and the go and pay for fuel, get back in your car never took more than 5 minutes, the rest of the time was a result of bad planning. It made your journey longer than it needed to be on the day. I on the other hand always combine shopping refuelling on the same event, so I go in the supermarket and do my shopping, then on the way out, I pop into their forecourt and refuel, so it just adds 5 minutes onto my shopping trip, job done.

Well, I'm still not seeing it, if the figures that @lol-lol posted are correct then what the hell is going on here, why are we paying so much more than our neighbours?