The multi-million pound industry called "fast-fit" does not understand Geometry..... How many members here who have had issues with tyre wear or handling have been told "your tracking's wrong mate?"

"Tracking".... what's that?... Do they mean "Alignment?".. if yes then what are they aligning the wheels to?.

More wise words. Most fast-fits, for example, don't know that if you take a Mk1 Golf or Mk1/2 Scirocco:

1. The toe is adjusted on one track-rod only. Original LH rods are non-adjustable, replacments are meant to be set to a pre-set length, then the toe adjusted on the other track-rod, then the steering wheel moved on the splines. This is different to most cars.

2. The camber is adjustable.

And they don't check for worn/broken components first.

The answer is to use someone that does know. Never let a fast-fit touch anything.

This thread looks to b just what I need.

A few months ago I had the front passenger side CV boot replaced on my mark 1 octaiva tdi. Since then, the tyre on that side wears on the outside edge. I've been told (by a competent mechanic/MOT tester) that everything was not put back as it should have been and that I need to get the castor and camber reset as well as getting the tracking checked. (He wasn't saying this to sell me a service as they don't do it)

As you can tell from this post, I don't really know what all this means, however I do need some new tyres and I'd like to get the alignments sorted out before I wear away new tyres.

The alignmycar website show the nearest place to me is:

Ninemeister Ltd

Unit 23 Bank Key Trade Est

WARRINGTON

WA1 1PJ

Does anyone have any opinion of them?

What service should I ask for?

I'll give them a call for a price once I know what I need doing.

Just one question, do you take roundabouts "enthusiastically" if yes that can make the outside edge of the N/S front wear more

Just one question, do you take roundabouts "enthusiastically" if yes that can make the outside edge of the N/S front wear more

An effect which is accentuated in a front-driven car (I've seen this edge feathering in Sierra 4x4s which have a full time [well except for diff effects] 33/67 front/rear split).

Just one question, do you take roundabouts "enthusiastically" if yes that can make the outside edge of the N/S front wear more

Unless you are constantly going nuts then no....

There is a very good reason why the outside of the N/S tyre wears more though.... In a straight line the front cambers are like this / \, when you turn the cambers migrate to this for left \ \ and this for right / /, add to this the left turn has a much smaller radius than the right turn then the tyre will show more wear.

Thank you all for your responses.

Sorry for taking so long to reply, things have been very busy.

I haven't had the car done yet or replaced the tyres. I work from home so do very little mileage and my tyres still just about legal.

I want to the new tyres done this weekend if possible. I called Ninemeister for a quote and was told £141 for a full geometry. They said they don't do a lower option and this seems expensive to me.

To answer some of the questions:

I occasionally take roundabouts "enthusiastically" but nowhere near enough to cause excess wear.

The car does pull slightly to the left if you take your hands off the wheel, but it has done that from new.

Thank you all for your responses.

Sorry for taking so long to reply, things have been very busy.

I haven't had the car done yet or replaced the tyres. I work from home so do very little mileage and my tyres still just about legal.

I want to the new tyres done this weekend if possible. I called Ninemeister for a quote and was told £141 for a full geometry. They said they don't do a lower option and this seems expensive to me.

To answer some of the questions:

I occasionally take roundabouts "enthusiastically" but nowhere near enough to cause excess wear.

The car does pull slightly to the left if you take your hands off the wheel, but it has done that from new.

Roads are naturally cambered to the left for water to run off, the centre being the highest point & your car will tend to drift left.

Find a CLEAR STRAIGHT road & try driving on the wrong side of the road, odds are your car will drift to the right but I must emphasise clear & not approaching any side roads or peoples drives etc

Roads are naturally cambered to the left for water to run off, the centre being the highest point & your car will tend to drift left.

Find a CLEAR STRAIGHT road & try driving on the wrong side of the road, odds are your car will drift to the right but I must emphasise clear & not approaching any side roads or peoples drives etc

No longer always true, particularly in extra-urban situations.

The drift left thing is a design feature, to take you away from other traffic if you're incapacitated whilst driving.

And into the pedestrians

No longer always true, particularly in extra-urban situations.

Agreed but generally true, we could debate this forever in true brisky style couldnt we :D:D

Edited 15 December, 200817 yr by DGW
Quote fixed.

I have to say there are some very good company's out there but they are very distilled.

The objective of this thread was to give members a "heads up" on what to expect from the tyre centre, be wise with a little ammunition called knowledge.

As a little test before the tech sets your alignment is to ask him/ her "what are you aligning the front wheels to?"

1: The manufacturers settings = Fail

2: Each other = Epic fail

3: The rear thrust angle = Respectable pass

4: The rear thrust angle respecting the manufacturers guidelines = Pass

I have to say there are some very good company's out there but they are very distilled.

The objective of this thread was to give members a "heads up" on what to expect from the tyre centre, be wise with a little ammunition called knowledge.

As a little test before the tech sets your alignment is to ask him/ her "what are you aligning the front wheels to?"

1: The manufacturers settings = Fail

2: Each other = Epic fail

3: The rear thrust angle = Respectable pass

4: The rear thrust angle respecting the manufacturers guidelines = Pass

Hi WIM,

Am I right in thinking that the rear thrust angle is essentially the direction the rear wheels are trying to push the car? I.e. if the rear wheels are trying to push the car 1 degree off from the deaed-centre-front of the car, the front wheels have to be aligned accordingly, else they will be trying to point the car in a different direction to the rears?

Regards,

Richard.

(P.S. You helped me out with my MX-5 a year or so ago, remember Toyota in Swansea and the machine with the bent arm?!)

Hi WIM,

Am I right in thinking that the rear thrust angle is essentially the direction the rear wheels are trying to push the car? I.e. if the rear wheels are trying to push the car 1 degree off from the deaed-centre-front of the car, the front wheels have to be aligned accordingly, else they will be trying to point the car in a different direction to the rears?

Regards,

Richard.

(P.S. You helped me out with my MX-5 a year or so ago, remember Toyota in Swansea and the machine with the bent arm?!)

Yep i remember that well..... I should think the Toyota dealers are still blushing about that to this day...

To your question... The rear thrust angle is nothing more than the chassis reference point..... without over complicating things the chassis forward direction doesn't know where forward is, so if the rear wheels are centred the "thrust angle" can be used to tell the front wheels where forward is.

Example: these front wheels are parallel \ \ or | | or / / .... parallel to what? if you say each other you would be correct assuming the rear wheels follow the same parallel path.

Hi Tony (WIM),

(I was going to email you directly, but I thought I'd go via this thread incase it helps others)

If you recall when I had the MX-5 done (Toyota, Swansea), I had a detailed printout of the geometry settings. Now the MX-5 was very adjustable, but now I've got an Octavia (4x4, mk2) and I don't know how adjustable it is in comparision, I'm guessing less so, is this true?

Now if I take the Octavia in to get it aligned like I did with the MX-5, should I expect the same detailed printout? What settings do they need to be aiming for, because you had a detailed list of settings for the MX-5, covering both front and back wheels? I remember you had me measure the distances from the underside of the wings to the centre of the wheels.

Looking at info you've supplied in this thread, I understand that because I had a printout, what I was in fact getting was either "Geometry/Primary" or "Full Geometry/Primary and Secondary"?

Suppose they do image the rear centre (thrust angle?) on an Octavia, is it correctable if there's a problem?

At the moment I'm asking because the Ibiza seems to have a problem, but I'm going to need to understand this in the future for the Octavia also! I'm planning on using Toyota Swansea again because I was happy with how receptive to advice they were last time, even if they had some issues to resolve with their understanding/equipment!

Cheers,

Richard.

I wrote a check list some years ago for a national fast-fit chain, it was adopted as an s.o.p but i bet few really used it.

.......................................

Sequential Alignment Fault Diagnostics

Condition

Premature tyre wear Possible cause

Incorrect tyre inflation

Wheel alignment out of tolerance

Suspension components worn

Incorrect ride height (1)

Distorted wheel

Incorrect torsion bar adjustment

Loose or worn wheel bearings

Worn shock absorbers

Tyres out of balance

Pulls to one side

Possible cause

Incorrect tyre inflation

Brakes binding (2)

Mismatched tyres (3)

Broken coil spring (1)

Power steering valve not centred (4)

Wheel alignment out of tolerance (5)

Defective wheel bearings (6)

Damaged anti roll bar drop links

Incorrect castor angle (7)

Wear on nsf tyre (8)

Heavy steering

Possible cause

Drag link seized

Ball joint seized

Steering linkage seized (9)

Power steering fluid low (10)

Power steering belt loose

Power steering pump defective (11)

Incorrect wheel alignment (12)

Damaged steering rack

Damaged suspension components (13)

Vehicle wandering

Possible cause

Worn or damaged suspension

Worn track control arm or tie rod (14)

Loose or worn wheel bearings (6)

Incorrect tyre inflation

Anti-roll bar drop link defective

Wheel alignment out of tolerance (5)

Broken coil or sagging coil spring (1)

Method of Testing

(1) Measure ride height from mid wheel arch to the centre of the hub, except no more than 10 mm difference across any given axle, a broken or sagging coil spring can cause a pull even from the rear

(2) If checking when cold, look for hot spots or blued discs,

(3) Rotational/ directional/ asymmetrical/ mismatch bias,

(4) Check track rod threads are even, ignore the position of the steering wheel, may prove steering wheel has been re-set,

(5) Will need to be in excess of 1 degree/ 6 mm normally negative/ toe out,

(6) Worn tapered rear wheel bearings will change the camber angle and cause a pull/ front wheel bearings are harder to test cold/ hold the coil spring and spin the wheel, if you feel a rumble then the bearing is worn,

(7) In most cases will only go wrong by an impact, tell tale sign, the wheel alignment will be a long way out, if a full wheel geometry is not available, check to see if the wheels have excessive set back, measure mid-wheel to mid-wheel, front to rear, ns and os, if the lowest is the direction the vehicle is pulling,then the castor is probably wrong, avoid setting just the wheel alignment as this will not resolve the pull and probably generate a complaint,

(8) Due to the road layout (UK) the nsf tyre has a smaller turning radius than the osf, this will cause the outside of the nsf tyre to wear more than the osf, this pattern of wear is unavoidable, if the vehicle is pulling left and the nsf is showing signs of wear, move the front wheels side to side, or front to rear, then test and adjust wheel alignment, non compliance is a common reason for an after adjustment complaint,

(9) Common on Fiesta/ Escorts, jack up front wheels and turn steering, if (terminology differs) the steering column/ linkage/ coupling/ joint, is seized it will go tight 180 degrees, ½ turn,

(10) The more the steering is turned, the more the pump will scream,

(11) Jack up front wheels, start engine and rev to about 2500 rpm observe if the steering wheel moves, also manually check the steering's resistance by moving the steering wheel from left to right,

(12) Will need to be in excess of 1 degree/ 6 mm positive/ toe in,

(13) Disconnect track rod from strut, turn strut from side to side, and feel if metalastic bush Is seized----

(14) If front wheel drive the wander will deviate left/ right under acceleration/ deceleration, beware a worn engine mount on a front wheel drive vehicle can also cause this, by off setting the drive shafts, rear wheel drive will deviate mainly under braking, or coming of bumps,

Hi Tony (WIM),

(I was going to email you directly, but I thought I'd go via this thread incase it helps others)

If you recall when I had the MX-5 done (Toyota, Swansea), I had a detailed printout of the geometry settings. Now the MX-5 was very adjustable, but now I've got an Octavia (4x4, mk2) and I don't know how adjustable it is in comparision, I'm guessing less so, is this true?

Now if I take the Octavia in to get it aligned like I did with the MX-5, should I expect the same detailed printout? What settings do they need to be aiming for, because you had a detailed list of settings for the MX-5, covering both front and back wheels? I remember you had me measure the distances from the underside of the wings to the centre of the wheels.

Looking at info you've supplied in this thread, I understand that because I had a printout, what I was in fact getting was either "Geometry/Primary" or "Full Geometry/Primary and Secondary"?

Suppose they do image the rear centre (thrust angle?) on an Octavia, is it correctable if there's a problem?

At the moment I'm asking because the Ibiza seems to have a problem, but I'm going to need to understand this in the future for the Octavia also! I'm planning on using Toyota Swansea again because I was happy with how receptive to advice they were last time, even if they had some issues to resolve with their understanding/equipment!

Cheers,

Richard.

The Octavia has less natural adjusters than the 5 but.....? The rear beam and front cross-member can be moved to optimize incorrect angles, in particular the castor angle which causes much distress to the Octavia.

The rear beam on the Octavia II is an independant set up that is adjustable for toe and camber.

The rear beam on the Octavia II is an independant set up that is adjustable for toe and camber.

Sorry my mistake, the front can definitely be optimized though.

Can anyone make heads or tale of this?

Car was pulling to the left and steering wheel was off-centre, this has now been corrected.

I told the Toe could be adjusted but camber was fixed.

Car is a Fabia VRS

Seems to drive OK

Mods: AP coilovers wound down about 60mm, Cupra + Powerflex front wishbone bushes, Whiteline rear anti roll bar.

What's up with the rear camber?

I'd not be too concerned about the quoted thrust angle; it's lower than recommended, which means your car will naturally track truer (probably moves less to the left hands off).

Your "excess negative camber" is probably a result of the operator comparing figures for a standard car against your lowered one. If you imagine removing the wheel, brake, hub and damper and pulling the strut up and down, you'll see the stub axle axis move from positive camber (outer end pointed down) into negative as it moves from droop travel into bump. When you lowered the car you effectively changed the camber angle to what you'd get with a bit of bump travel on. Incidentally, without allowing for bush flexibility, the same applies to the castor angle.

Can you see any problems arising from the above figures?

I am probably going to bring the rear up by 10-20mm in the near future.

Not for my Octy at all, it's for my '97 M3 - a year ago the rear right quarter had a disagreement with the central reservation of the M62. Reasonably straight and slow (it was a nearly-caught oversteer going through the coolant dropped by a stationary van in the outside lane) - the garage I use said it was all straight with nothing bent or broken, but since then it's always needed me to steer slightly right (5 degrees?) or it pulls left.

At the time, they swapped the rear wheels over (the outer edge of rim did take some of the impact), checked the rack position/tracking (primitively, by this thread).

Since then, it had new rear tyres last year, and new fronts recently. It's not worn any of them particularly unevenly. At the MOT in October what the garage calls both rear "rose joints" were worn and replaced. Otherwise, it passed. None of it's helped. It's old and the E36 is known for the suspension bits wearing regularly (plus the Evo had extra-stiff suspension and I live in Liverpool, which has some horrendous roads); nothing else has been done in my 2 year stewardship.

So, clearly something is amiss, and obviously I'm focussed on that rear corner. After a year, it's about time I got it sorted, so it's handy I found this thread.

AlignMyCar lists

The Wheel Alignment & Ball Joint Centre

Unit 2

Forth Street / Clide Street

Bootle

LIVERPOOL

L20 8RG

Tel: 0151 933 5111

for Liverpool; has anyone used them before?

What's my best approach? Anyone got any suspicions?

Cheers!

Hi mate; I'll set myself up for the fall, and say that I don't believe that even an M3 would have true Rose joints in the suspension, because they are utterly solid and would let you feel it if you ran over a 5p hit lying on a billiard table!

That said, I think you do need a full alignment, and if no-one suggests anywhere closer, AwesomeGTi aren't that far down the M62.

I was lying about tyre wear, I just checked and the rear left is approaching the legal minimum, where the right has about 4mm left. Now, I tend to be more enthusiastic going round roundabouts (of which there are several at the work end of my commute) when I'm staying on for more than one exit, and they've done at least 22k, but still - that seems an excessive difference. The wear across the tyres is fairly even though.

Yeah, the garage said they're what he would call a rose joint; it's too stiff for British roads, though - convertible, so a stiffened variant of a stiffened variant (it's an Evo, so tweaked up over the original 3.0 E36) of a stiffened variant of a normal 3 series!

There was something else I was going to add as well, but I've forgotten what on the drive home. It's generally quite knocky these days, with some vibration through the steering wheel and pedals - but as I said before, it's a car known to eat various bits of suspension every 30-40k and so far as I know only the one pair of bushes has been changed in its entire 12 year life!

Edited 13 February, 200917 yr by NikBorton

can anyone help my fabia vrs pulls to left , had wheel aligment yesterday made no differance. back in the summer replaced both front arms rear bshes ?. if i leave it will it couse damage to car.

pulling to one side is usually down to tracking