Refitting timing chain

[dauphin]

I'm in the middle of replacing the timing chain and I'm stuck at the stage of refitting the new chain and sprockets. As per the Haynes manual, I have carefully counted 12 roller links in the chain between the timing dots on the sprockets and I can just about get the sprockets on as far as the point where they start to engage with the Woodruff keys. But I can't shift them any further along the shafts. Haynes talks about "sliding" them back on, but so far a good deal of brute force has failed to move them very far.

The chain seems very tight and I'm wondering if it is excessive tension in the chain that is preventing the sprockets from going all the way back on. Obviously a new chain is going to be tighter than the old one, but I'm worried it's too tight.

Is it usually this hard to get the sprockets back on or am I doing something wrong?

[daverapid]

:)Not quite directly related to your particular timing chain problem, but click on the link below and have a read of the thread. It's about the Fabia 1.4, but the chain and lower sprocket are identical to the Felicia 1.3 MPi engine, and very similar to the SPi. A read of that thread might save you some hassle!

http://briskoda.net/fabia-i/idle-power-problem-1-4-mpi/148084/

[dauphin]

Thanks, this got me excited for a moment but I've just been out to the garage and it looks as if the markings on mine are OK.:(

I will have to resume battle in the morning!

[dauphin]

Not making much progress here. I don't think the tightness of the chain is the problem after all as I have tried the sprockets without the chain and they still don't want to go on. I've even tried the old camshaft sprocket and that is no better! The camshaft sprocket is worse than the crankshaft sprocket; I could probably force the latter on with a bit of tapping, but with the camshaft sprocket a) there is very little room to tap it because the chassis is in the way and I am conscious that it may not be very good for the camshaft to have the sprocket thwacked back on!

I never removed the Woodruff key from the camshaft end as it is a pretty tight fit but it appears to be in good condition.

I am really at a loss - both the sprockets were fairly tight to remove and required levering off, but I never imagined it would prove so hard to get the new ones (or even the old ones) back on.

[dauphin]

Hopeless. I've filed down both the Woodruff keys to the point where I can just about get the sprockets back on without the chain, but it's impossible once the tension of the chain is on them. I have resorted to trying to refit the old sprockets with the new chain, because they are not quite as tight to fit as the new sprockets, but still can't get them on.

I am still worried anyway that chain seems so tight, just how tight should a new chain be??

[Phil-E]

I don't remember it being an issue at all. Granted it took a bit of force to push them on but they slid straight on tbh.

Have you checked with who you bought the chain and sprokets off that you have the right one as it may differ slightly between the SPi, MPi and the 1.4 MPi in the early fabias and they could have supplied the wrong one.

Other than that I don't know what to suggest as like I say when I did mine there just wasn't an issue at all.

Phil

[dauphin]

Maybe that's a possibility. I bought the parts from Jorily over a year ago and have been putting the job off until now (wish I had put it off for ever!!) I have checked their website again and it does say in relation to post-98 timing chains "Some MPi model may have the earlier type Timing Chain fitted..." I have contacted them for clarification in case this is the cause of my problems.

[daverapid]

:)The SPi crankshaft sprocket would be such a loose fit on the MPi crankshaft that it would be immediately obvious that it's wrong.

[Phil-E]

:)The SPi crankshaft sprocket would be such a loose fit on the MPi crankshaft that it would be immediately obvious that it's wrong.

Fair enough! Not knowing anything about the MPi myself I wasn't too sure.

Very strange that it's not sliding straight on though. You've done a fair few in your time Dave you had any problems? Guessing it should be as they would say in the haynes "a tight sliding fit" .

Phil

[daverapid]

:)They can be fairly tight and fiddly, but I've never had one that won't actually go on.

[dauphin]

Thanks for your comments. I have checked with Jorily that I definitely have the correct parts, so I will just have to have another go tomorrow. I can see myself having to put everything back as it was, including the old timing chain!

[daverapid]

Where are you from?

[dauphin]

Helensburgh, near Glasgow.

[daverapid]

Oh well, that rules out my plan!

[dauphin]

I guessed so, but thanks for the thought anyway!

[dauphin]

Here's the latest. The sprockets will go on reasonably comfortably without the chain. They won't go on with the chain, whether I use the new chain or the old one.

I think what must be happening is that after I locate the crankshaft sprocket onto the start of the shaft, the tension of the chain is pulling the camshaft sprocket round so that it is no longer properly aligned with its Woodruff key, although it's difficult to actually see this, particularly when I'm working alone.

Seems to me that if the chain is over-tensioned, the only explanation is that the crankshaft and camshaft must have moved in relation to one another - although I'm not aware of this having happened and I obviously tried to prevent it. If one or other shaft has rotated slightly, the two Woodruff keyways will no longer be correctly aligned.

Does this seem a logical explanation? If so, how can I check the relative alignment of the crankshaft and the camshaft and, more importantly, how do I correct it??

One way, I suppose, would be to rotate the camshaft anti-clockwise slightly until it results in the chain tension being reduced just enough to enable it to be refitted. However, this seems rather a crude adjustment and it also depends on my misalignment theory being correct, otherwise it could make things a lot worse.

[AhmetH]

it'll be a strange idea but you may try to heat up the timing chain and sprocets in oven

and try to install it again using a pair of gloves ?

[dauphin]

Thanks for the suggestion Ahmet. It was an interesting idea but I narrowed down the cause of the problem to the fact that the Woodruff key on the camshaft was not aligned with its keyway when I fitted the chain according to the 12 links rule.

As I explained it my last posting, I felt that the camshaft must have moved and that maybe if I rotated it so that the Woodruff key was in alignment that might resolve the problem.

After a lot of trial and error, I finally got the alignment right this morning after turning the camshaft maybe 20 degrees anti-clockwise. That enabled me to fit the new sprockets and chain.

But my relief was shortlived! After replacing the timing chain cover and the crankshaft pulley, I found that the crankshaft will not turn at all. I assume that this is the result of having turned the camshaft on its own while the chain was off. I haven't used the starter motor, so as to avoid damage, but I have released the brakes, put the gearlever in neutral, and removed the spark plugs. The engine just will not turn via the crankshaft pulley.

There is only one more thing I can think of, which is that maybe for some reason my engine does not conform with the "12 link rule" (perhaps someone has had it apart before and reassembled it in an unconventional way). If that is the case, instead of moving the camshaft, I should have gone to 14 or 16 links in order that the chain would go on.

So my options are 1) to take the timing chain off again, put the camshaft back as closely as possible to where it was originally, and refit the chain using as a gap of as many links as necessary; 2) get hold of a secondhand engine; or 3) go and see my local garage in the morning and see if they will take the car in and sort it all out for me.

I have never had such a problem in over 35 years that I've been tinkering with my cars and I can't recall ever being defeated before, but I'm very much leaning towards option 3!

[daverapid]

I assume the original chain had a lot of slack? If so, fitting a new chain will require some correction of the crank/cam position as the valve timing with a slack chain will not have been excactly spot on as it would be with a new chain. Hope that made sense, I know what I mean!!

Is your car an MPi or SPi? Either way, before you strip it right down again remove the Distributor [sPi] or dummy distributor drive thingy[MPi] and see if the engine will turn. There may be an issue with the oil pump drive.

Don't be tempted to change the amount of links between the timing dots...it MUST be 12 links unless you bought an incorrectly marked sprocket like I did.

[dauphin]

Yes, the original chain had a good deal of slack. The new one is tight, but not excessively so I think.

It's an MPi. This dummy distributor drive, is that the oil pump drive? I haven't replaced that yet anyway.

I've only got the timing cover back on and the crankshaft pulley. Before reattaching the oil pump or the sump I decided to see if the engine would turn freely and that's when I found it would not move!

There is that bit in the Haynes manual that says:

"Check that the inner and outer thrustwasher locating tabs are aligned with the cut-outs on the right hand main bearing cap, and that the thrustwashers are correctly seated in their recesses........Note that if the thrustwashers are not properly seated, the crankshaft will lock up as the bolt is tightened, and the thrustwashers will be damaged. Check that the crankshaft rotates freely before proceeding further."

When I checked this before tightening the crankshaft pulley bolt, I could only see one of these tabs, and the photo in the Haynes manual only appears to show one, but as far as I could see mine was exactly per the photo, so I went ahead and tightened up. I got a premonition that all was not well when the crankshaft didn't try to turn as I tightened the pulley bolt. I didn't think anything was amiss as regards the thrustwasher tabs, but the reference to the possibility of the crankshaft locking up has got me wondering...

[dauphin]

An update.... I eventually realised the other thrustwasher is the thing on the timing case side of the shaft, but with both thrustwashers apparently correctly located, the engine still wouldn't turn. Put everything back together with a view to getting the garage to take the car in.

Then decided to investigate once again. I tried removing the crankshaft pulley and putting the bolt on without the pulley - and hey presto the engine turned!! Tried it on the starter and it fired up first time (no timing chain rattle I was pleased to note).

So obviously there is something amiss in the crankshaft pulley area, whether it's the thrustwashers or what, I 'm not yet sure.

Bottom line is, I've now got to do the entire job again as I will have to get the crankshaft sprocket off to find out exactly what's wrong.

So near and yet so far, but hearing that engine run, albeit without the crankshaft pulley, has given me hope again!

[AhmetH]

Hi mate

two years ago i've changed my chain in a garage. i was bought the set from a dealer and especially told them my car is facelift one with 1.3 carburated engine.(just like favorits in Turkey)

nonetheless in garage we realised that crank side sprocket is wider in diameter than original crank sprocket which came from factory. there was a noticable offset which forces chain to move sideways.

with the help of vernier caliper we have found that crank sprocet only worn 0.01 mm. so we decide to use it again.

hope yours is correct part. may be its a chain kit for favorits