Opel/Vauxhall LSD to Felicia gearbox?

[FelRace]

Hello,

I have heard that LSD from Opel's "little gearbox", i.e. F13, F15, F17 would fit more or less straight to the Fav/Fel gearbox. Have anyone any confirmation for this? Especially for the rally guys, what LSD´s you have used in your cars, only Skoda's own?

Edited 18 January, 2010 by FelRace

[djaychela]

I'd heard that as well, but I seem to remember looking at Quafe's diagrams for the ATB for the Vauxhall box and it not looking like it'd fit. I'm not sure what the dimensions are of the Skoda one (not got mine here, oddly enough, at work!), but the Quaife one is here - http://www.quaife.co.uk/shop_files/QDF7B6767.jpg - so you could measure up easily enough, but I can't see that the combination of diff width(L1 and L3), bearing diameter (D3), and crownwheel diameter (not shown, but critical to get the crownwheel running true) , offset (L4) AND bolt diameter (D1) would line up.. Then you'd have shafts to sort out, even if you could get it in there.

Skoda didn't make a diff for the production car, and they didn't homologate one in Group N - there's not any detail about the diffs they used in the homologation papers in Group A either. I had a very nice diff which looked like a ZF or similar, but the casing exploded (yes, really) last year, leading to a DNF and a big bill. I've now got a Gripper in the car, which works very well, AND doesn't cost a fortune to service - plates are about £3 each, as opposed to the ZF-style one which I would have to have had them made especially, coming out at about £400 for a rebuild (versus £36 for the Gripper). An LSD transforms the car when on the loose, you don't realise just how much traction you're losing until you have one, BUT it doesn't come without a cost in terms of the car's behaviour, handling and user-friendliness.

Jim (felicia16v) probably knows a lot more about what might fit than me....

[felicia16v]

think thats my que

ok now then when the skoda trophy was using fav's harry hockley did some machining to a certain gm diff to make it fit the skoda box, (but i dont know which one) maybe worth a fone call to martin at hockleys...but i have a f13 diff here and its close ish as in the spline count is the same and the boss for the crownwheel is the correct size, bolt pcd is wrong and the diff is a lot narrower than the skoda one.

i would go for a gripper if it were me (i did) now that they make one.

the ones available from czech are usually good but they are expensive to buy and very expensive to rebuild.

gripper will also tell you about ramp angle settings and preload etc and talk you thru the resetting process if you wanted

[felicia16v]

oh and yes what darren says about the side effects is quite right it will require a totally different driving style and you will wonder how you ever managed without one.. its one of those things that improves with the more power you have..

mine is set at 150lbf preload with max plate contact which is proper mad really but how i like it to drive, just point it at whatever you want to go and keep it flat

[FelRace]

Thanks a lot guys.

Many guys driving trophy cars in Finland says that when there is in general lack of power (>150 hp) the LSD just takes too much power without big differences to driving. Well, after one season on gravel and snow and now again on snow I have noticed that something is missing...just traction and also steering, especially on ice that car just doesn´t turn but understeering very badly. LSD really need different style of driving, but that´s not a problem, other things are. However, I really need more power but that is coming when new engine will be built in April.

I sent already e-mail to Gripper to ask if Skoda LSD´s are available. In Czech there is differentials available, bnut brand new really are expensive, e.g. ~1300 euros made by Mr. Sixta. Used gearbox with LSD are also all the time available and in it´s best you´ll get short-ratio box with LSD by 800 euros + transport. However, it´s always question about what is the condition of used differential and what it costs to maintain it.

Hope that Gripper could give me good option for this.

[felicia16v]

we have a sixta diff in the 1600 and that was fine also with the std 1.3 i think the advantages in handleing far outweigh any power loss caused by the diff.

gripper diff can be found here

http://www.racecar.co.uk/gripper/

[djaychela]

Many guys driving trophy cars in Finland says that when there is in general lack of power (>150 hp) the LSD just takes too much power without big differences to driving. Well, after one season on gravel and snow and now again on snow I have noticed that something is missing...just traction and also steering, especially on ice that car just doesn´t turn but understeering very badly. LSD really need different style of driving, but that´s not a problem, other things are. However, I really need more power but that is coming when new engine will be built in April.

Well, the first diff I had from Jim I first used on Rally GB '06, and that was in my totally engine-standard previous Felicia, that was knocking out a MASSIVE 68bhp at best. The difference it made was astounding, there were sections which were really muddy in Brechfa in particular and I didn't think we'd make it, but it found grip where I'd expect to get stuck (and even on the second runs through it was fine), so it probably made the difference between finishing and not! An LSD doesn't take any significant power on a straight (after all, the wheels should be turning at the same rate), and also calms the car down a bit on the straights too. It's just more predictable all round once you've got the hang of it. It's less so on the road as power on/off mid corner (as you often have to do in traffic) takes a bit of getting used to (as my nav found out when he drove the car back from Parc Ferme!), but I'd not want to be without one in the woods again, no matter what the car. I'd survive without, but it's better with.

[FelRace]

think thats my que

ok now then when the skoda trophy was using fav's harry hockley did some machining to a certain gm diff to make it fit the skoda box, (but i dont know which one) maybe worth a fone call to martin at hockleys...but i have a f13 diff here and its close ish as in the spline count is the same and the boss for the crownwheel is the correct size, bolt pcd is wrong and the diff is a lot narrower than the skoda one.

i would go for a gripper if it were me (i did) now that they make one.

the ones available from czech are usually good but they are expensive to buy and very expensive to rebuild.

gripper will also tell you about ramp angle settings and preload etc and talk you thru the resetting process if you wanted

One thing related to this Gripper thing: are the British able to buy diffs straight from Gripper, without reseller (with the price given in the Grippes catalogue + VAT)?

Edited 25 January, 2010 by FelRace

[felicia16v]

One thing related to this Gripper thing: are the British able to buy diffs straight from Gripper, without reseller (with the price given in the Grippes catalogue + VAT)?

yes contact him direct and he will sell you one. he is based in coventry in the uk

[djaychela]

Yes, they deal direct. In fact, I think they may only deal direct, and not have any distribution. I got mine from them.

[felicia16v]

http://www.racecar.co.uk/gripper/

[FelRace]

yes contact him direct and he will sell you one. he is based in coventry in the uk

E-mailed once without getting reply, maybe I have to call.

However, Finnish reseller for Gripper diffs told me that they won´t sell me straight when he has the import contract. Have to find out, there seems anyway to be a huge difference between Grippers list price and price in Finland...

[felicia16v]

E-mailed once without getting reply, maybe I have to call.

However, Finnish reseller for Gripper diffs told me that they won´t sell me straight when he has the import contract. Have to find out, there seems anyway to be a huge difference between Grippers list price and price in Finland...

best is to telephone him, he is very busy usually

[djaychela]

Yeah, email is a waste of time. I mailed him a couple of weeks before I phoned and bought mine.

[FelRace]

I raise up an old thread again, but that's because many of my long-term plans has now realized and of course not without problems :(. Here comes a little story and then The Question.

So I finally ordered Gripper LSD and got it two weeks ago. There were some problems when they weren't delivering it when promised but after some angry phone calls I got it one week late. One of my experienced (related to transmissions) friend fit the LSD in the gearbox and he also, for a test, fit one driveshaft in its place and it fitted OK, although was quite tight. But it should be.

Yesterday we put engine and box together and lift the package in the car. When my mechanics start to fit driveshafts, I started to fit all the wires, pipes, manifolds, alternator and so on.

As a first, there was problem that another CV inner joint fit (tight as said) but another didn't. We realised that bore in the side bearing was too tight for the joint. Ok, we machined the joint a bit and it went in. It felt that it was also in the teehts of the LSD and were just wondering why that lock pin is not working and joint comes out just by pulling. There has been problem with some other diff solutions that the inner end of the joint reaches the diff and the lock pin won't go deep enough. Still, evn aftre shortening the inner en it didn't work.

My friend then noticed that something else is wrong too. When trying to spin the engine with gear on, joints were stable. After measuring I realised that teeth bore in te LSD is a way too big, it doesn't even touch the teeth of the joint. Maximum outer dia of joint's teeth bore is about 24,3 mm and minimum dia of the diff's bore is about 24,5-25 mm.

I can tell you guys that it was a bit black moment when almost everything else was ready for the starting the brand new engine with upgraded transmission...

What now? Of course I´m today going to call Gripper and asking what the hell this means?! What idea they have about the measurements of Skoda driveshafts? Still, I should find the solution that doesn't mean tearing down the whole package again. This leads me to The Question: when searching inner CV joints from the web, there are plenty of sources for the joint befor 3/1998 (oe. ref 6U0 407331). Models after that: no any parts available. Could it be possible that this joint for tha latest years of Felicia is with bigger teeth bore?

Do you other guys having experience of this kind of problems or have you got bolt-on applications from Gripper?

[djaychela]

Hi Olli

I have a gripper in my rally Felicia. It fitted without any problems, other than the driveshafts being slightly difficult to fit because the LSD doesn't have a taper where the shafts fit into the gear to compress the circlip when you are fitting it - I get around this by putting grease on the driveshaft slot to hold the circlip in place when fitting - then it fits easily.

There is no difference between early and late driveshafts, they are the same throughout the entire Felicia range and lifespan.

I think that Gripper have made a mistake when building or assembling your diff, and have fitted the wrong parts.

[FelRace]

Hi Olli

I have a gripper in my rally Felicia. It fitted without any problems, other than the driveshafts being slightly difficult to fit because the LSD doesn't have a taper where the shafts fit into the gear to compress the circlip when you are fitting it - I get around this by putting grease on the driveshaft slot to hold the circlip in place when fitting - then it fits easily.

There is no difference between early and late driveshafts, they are the same throughout the entire Felicia range and lifespan.

I think that Gripper have made a mistake when building or assembling your diff, and have fitted the wrong parts.

It´s very difficult to measure what is the bore in the diff when it is now in the gearbox. It would be necessary to tell Gripper what they have done and to find out if some other cars driveshaft solution would be possible.

However of course I should get what I have ordered, making some tricks to make this work is not anyway my job when I have paid for the right stuff :no:

[djaychela]

Yeah, exactly, it should fit without modifications, and I doubt changing inner CVs will be straightforward as it's unlikely you'll find one that's right on both ends?

[FelRace]

As obvious, things started to become clear when I called Gripper. John there found out drawings of my diff and compared them to example Felicia driveshaft he has. Case was clear, side gears of my diff are for Fabia. He was sorry and promised to send new side gears in two weeks. I'm not satisfied for that long delivery time in this case when this is totally their fault. When there was probles already in the first delivery I really hope that they will now do better.

However, I have to start taken engine and gearbox out of the car again and then splitting the transmission, when they are just aggregated. John promised to compensate my extra work by sending some extra spare parts but I´m afraid it won't still offer me very good hourly rate.

[djaychela]

Yeah, taking that out and splitting the box and diff is a pain to have to do, as you say it won't compensate you and it's entirely their mistake!