Does anyone use their daytime running lights? I was wondering how useful a feature they are. Would it be possible to replace the duel functioning lights with single dedicated fog lamps from a quality manufacturer such as Hella or Cibie'. Are they handed in such a way so as to make substitution difficult. the reason why I ask is that larger diameter single use lamps will give far better light distribution and brightness.

I have used the driving lights but they are switched off now. They turn off as soon as the sidelights are put on.

I find the fog lights very good, they give a wide spread and illuminate the sides of the road while the heads give a good forward beam. The only improvement would be to install some decent bulbs instead of the standard H4s and H7s, Osram for example.

Like yourself, I have the problem of the, totally dark, back roads and tracks, in my opinion, the Yeti lights are really good and better bulbs will be the making of them.

Hi Anthony,

had the DRL on since I picked the Monster up. There quite bright and with the ever changing weather round here plus all the rural driving, I think in conjunction with Auto lights they are good safety feature. From what I have read the EU are looking at making them compulsory on new cars in the future.

Regard changing the fogs; be a bit difficult as they are part the main headlamp assembly (see handbook). Although personally they are the best fog I have ever had fitted to a car, even with a bog standard bulb.

Regards,

TP

DRLs will be mandatory on new vehicles from 2011.

Or if this outfit have their way - never http://www.dadrl.org.uk/

Some people have too much time of their hands.

Terfyn,

I am not disputing whether or not DRL might be usefu or not per say, I do have my doubts and pros. I am glad that they do not come on automatically as I prefer to decide if I use them or not. I certainly do not want any lights coming on when I am driving on my access tracks as I like to come and go without notice or observation as far as I can help. The reason for my question was not so much to do with just getting rid of the DRL it has more to do with improving the effectiveness of the Fog Lights. I accept that they may be good, thank you for confirming that. Part of this I feel is that they are mounted at a sensible hight off the ground and allow greater projection, The same is true for beam width. the other reason might be is that they have a greater reflector area than most under bumper types. They may be good bit their is nothing wrong with better and is my motto.

Terfyn, are you sure that the Fog lights & DRL use H4 or/and H7 Bulbs, it sounds a little strange? Usually auxiliary lamps use H1, H2 or H3 bulbs though some specialist lamps do use H4, some for a greater mass of light and others because different parts of the reflector have specialist functions, an example of the latter would be the Cibie Bi Oscar Drive/Fog combination lamp.

TP,

I accept that the DRL are functional useful and may prevent some accidents but I would be quite happy to run using Headlamps and often do so in the daylight on certain road types. Note I said Head Lamps with that I mean dipped beam as opposed to what some motorist seem to do in poor light which is to use marker or side lights which are not useful in the least and most certainly are not legal either on their own.

TP, "Part of the Headlamp assembly", that is one of the things that I was afraid of. It might not be physically sensible to change to a more conventional lamp lens. I accept as I have explained above that the Yeti Fog Lights are good but I know that large Cibie or Hella Lamps will be better.

dstev2000,

Thank you for the link, very interesting. What ever the politicians want to introduce we can be sure that someone will form a pressure group to oppose it. Very right too, no matter what. I have spit thoughts on how effective they may or may not be, so far as their primary intention is concerned, that of reducing accidents. 2011, well it is just as well that I will be buying in 2010 then.

I may well not do anything as it might be too difficult to affect a good job. Fog light are not something that should be used willy nilly on the roads like many motorists do. Off road high Mounted Fog Lights are very good at giving a very wide spread of light without any back glare associated with normal Driving lamps or main beam. this is particularly so with the larger Rally Fog Lights from Hella and Cibie. they are capable of giving an incredible wide spread of flat light and that is what I would prefer. This conversation is really hypothetical anyway as I Yeti do not have a Yet! thank you gentlemen for your considerations.

As a second thought, I wonder what sort of light beam the DRL produce, would they be helpful in any situation if they could be used in conjunction with main beam? Again thinking off road, just a thought.

Edited 20 January, 201016 yr by Anthony 1

DRL's ae mandatory in Scandinavia and will be required on New cars in EU at some time. It's a good thing - try seeing a grey car during the day in the mist so common in the off-shore EU Isles.

The fógs built into the DRL are OK, but improved with high grade Osram or Philips bulbs. Done it. Other than giving you a better feel for the sides of the vehicles, with xenons, the fogs are not really necessary.

the xenons are good out to 200 meters, but it would be nice to have some fill-in in the middle at a little longer distance - 250-300 meters. there are xenon driving lamps and spots that will do the job, but they are hard to fit on the all plastic front and they are alas not road legal in the EU.

When somebody finds the right mounting arrangement, please let me know - legal or not.

BTW, a ligth bar of small lights under the license plate and in front of the intercooler just does not do it for me.

Edited 20 January, 201016 yr by Agerbundsen

Please dont forget that using Fog lights in non foggy situations is illegal

Sorry...it bugs me constantly

Agerbundsen,

Thank you for the comments, yes seeing oncoming vehicles in the half light is very important but dipped beam headlamps will affect that anyway. I accept that DRL might have a particular dispersal pattern not found on Dipped Beam Headlights. DRL were developed because Dim Dip was ineffective and people were resistant to using proper Dipped Beam Headlamps. Now of course their may be concerns over the extra fuel used when running a full set of lights, not very green evidently.

What Xenon HID Lamps are not legal in the EU? Are you referring to those Australian LightForce Lamps that I provided a link for a little while back?

If you want mountings for auxiliary lamps look to the rallying world, they have lots of different types. 2 up 2 down is common but single mounts are popular also. A Yeti with a set of 4 huge Cibie's in two up, two down, arrangement might look quite fetching as well as very potent.

My link

Have you considered light pods. These days they are becoming increasingly popular amongst rally goers and performers. Normal arrangements are 4 lamps in horizontal row arrangement within a fibreglass pod that is secured on the front of the bonnet.

My link

Please dont forget that using Fog lights in non foggy situations is illegal

Sorry...it bugs me constantly

+1 Chris

+1 Chris

No problem with me there, I absolutely agree. Funny thing, while a high proportion of drivers waft along in a dream with fogs illuminated at night when their is plainly no need, the other day in fogy conditions , viability down to well less than 100m hardly any of them had them on at all and some where piddling around with side lights and the occasional couple or threesome had no light on at all even in the failing twilight fog.

Edited 20 January, 201016 yr by Anthony 1

Front fog lights can be used when visibility is seriously reduced. So thats when its dark then?

Fog lights can only be used when visibility is seriously reduced by fog less than 100m. Fog lights may be used when their is falling snow.. It is an offence to use fog lights at any other time.

The Fogs are H7 and the Driving lights are P13W. So the Fogs can be improved by a high efficiency bulb.

As for driving with fogs on. Its a pity that some people are so blinkered that they do not realise that not everyone drives in well lit streets or on main roads.

Provided I am not affecting other road users, I will drive with my fogs on to give better close illumination of the narrow roads where I live. A nine foot wide tar and stonechip strip with ditches and stone walls on either side requires accurate and careful driving and, as I can drive for miles without seeing another road user, my use of the fog lights is a considerable improvement on heads alone and "bugs" no one. I will continue to use the necessary lighting to give me a safe trip.

I sometimes wish I had better reversing lights. Reversing back to a passing place with the oncoming car shining their full headlights into my cabin is very distracting.

The Fogs are H7 and the Driving lights are P13W. So the Fogs can be improved by a high efficiency bulb.

As for driving with fogs on. Its a pity that some people are so blinkered that they do not realise that not everyone drives in well lit streets or on main roads.

Provided I am not affecting other road users, I will drive with my fogs on to give better close illumination of the narrow roads where I live. A nine foot wide tar and stonechip strip with ditches and stone walls on either side requires accurate and careful driving and, as I can drive for miles without seeing another road user, my use of the fog lights is a considerable improvement on heads alone and "bugs" no one. I will continue to use the necessary lighting to give me a safe trip.

I sometimes wish I had better reversing lights. Reversing back to a passing place with the oncoming car shining their full headlights into my cabin is very distracting.

Also use my fogs for the same function, often find that on some lanes fogs work better than high beam, particularly the Monsters

TP

I have no problem with someone using Fog lamps when they are the only road user on deserted roads so long as they extinguish them when I approach. The vast majority of fog lamps are little more than irritants and do little in the way of illuminating the roadside. They are mounted too low in flimsy aprons and valences with no adjustment, they are a hazard and a menace. The Fog lamps on the Yeti are much better placed and are most probably correctly aimed and adjusted and are of a reasonable size.

Reversing lamps have improved some what over the years, are brighter and give better spread. I agree that they do not work nearly well enough in the country on dark twisty narrow lanes in the rain. Hella Do an auxiliary reversing lamp in the Round Comet Series, it uses an H3 55W bulb. I understand that it is correctly designed "E" legal. the only thing is the law states that only a maximum of two reversing lights are allowed and the must be symmetrically spaced. I can not quite remember the rest but it is all there. I was surprised about the H3 55W as I understood that the maximum wattages at the rear was to be no higher than 21W but the laws are constantly changing and being reviewed and little is brought to our attention when things change except we may get a huge fine because in England and Wales ignorance of the Law is no excuse.

I was surprised about the H3 55W as I understood that the maximum wattages at the rear was to be no higher than 21W but the laws are constantly changing and being reviewed and little is brought to our attention when things change except we may get a huge fine because in England and Wales ignorance of the Law is no excuse.

True but we also get fined for speeding, using mobiles, eating at the wheel and adjusting our radio but not smoking!?! I have yet to go on a long trip and not see any or all of these "discretions" being carried out.

As far as I know eating at the wheel or drinking for that matter is not a specific offence. The offence is allegedly driving without proper control! I wonder what they might say about micturition down a tube.

I seem to remember 'fog' is only if the viz is less than 100m - beyond that it's 'mist'. I was surprised just how bright BMW rear fog lights were on the M40 last Saturday night - despite the viz dropping to nearly less than a mile...

I have the DRLs 'on' all the time like TP and lights in 'auto' most of the time. That said, light sensors can't differentiate between good and bad viz - if the ambient light is bright enough despite it being misty then it may well not switch the main beams on. I think this might be why you see many 'premium' cars in poor viz with no lights on - drivers relying on their 'auto' lights.

DRL on and off is a simple move and pull/push of the indicator stalk I seem to remember. I can understand Anthony's wish to stay invisible at times but otherwise they aren't doing any harm. Rear lights are not illuminated on the Yeti (in common with many cars) when the DRLs are on.

Of course you could always buy Candy White - be safe be seen....

Regarding DRL's, dipped headlights, legal fog lights or specific DRL's are all legal for use when there is enough daylight. The first two were designed to see in specific conditions. The DRL's are designed so you can be seen, but they provide no useful light for driving in the dark. I use them all the time in daylight - both here in Scandihoovia, where they are required - and also in the rest of Europe, where they are permitted and in most countries now encouraged. Mnay of the German cars now use them as a design element, so I expect their use will grow.

Driving with dipped headlights during the day in the southern countries often resluts in being flashed by other drivers - I think just as a reminder that you have left your lights on, buddy! The DRL's do not get the same reaction. I Scandinavia, it is common to flash at cars, which do not have DRL's, as a reminder to turn them on. This is recognized as a courtesy, usulally resulting in a "Thank you" wave as you pass. You sometimes get the same falsh reaction from people driving behind you when you use the dedicated DRL's, as you do not have the rear light on and people think you have no lights on. This will eventually disappear as more cars have dedicated DRL's with no other lights on in daytime.

There is a EU regulation for the light output of auxiliary driving lights. If you surf the Hella and Bosch pages, you will see a referene to approvals for most of the Halogen auxiliary lights, but not the xenon's, which are labelled off-road only. This is also referenced in the article from the Swedish Auto Motor Sport provided by a SMOC member in Sweden. The same article also allows that the Polis in Sweden are not likely to pay any attention to this, and I suspect that it is also the case elsewhere if the lights are not used irresponsibly.

For every day (night!) driving, I find the xenons to be very good, the fogs of not much use, other than in fog (surprise?) and my only beef is that the xenon light is too dispersed on the high beam setting. As you get older (Yes 40+ is older in this connection and I am of pensionable vintage) you do not see as well at night. i could really use some additional light at around 200 -250 meters. Several xenon spots and driving lights would do this, but:

1. I am concerned that the xenon lamps are not suitable for the inevitable on-off-on-off duty driving on public roads. The bright flash when starting may also be disturbing to some.

2. I do not want additional lights to protrude in front of the bumper if possible. I do not want them below the licence plate (Geometrically wrong for the duty) and I do not want to drive around looking like a me-too pretend off-roader. Ther is also a littel question as to how to attach the lamps. The bumper itself is essentially a plastic soft skin on a styrofoam core. OK to attach licence plates to, but not lamps which should not vibrate.

That more or less leaves just a few options - Forget it, fabricate a bracket that goes out to the structure supporting the three heateschangers and mount the lamps in the top grille or wait till some aftermarket outfit comes up with a Yeti Cowcatcher bar.

I'll stop the verbal diarrhea now and go back to work..............

I seem to remember 'fog' is only if the viz is less than 100m - beyond that it's 'mist'. I was surprised just how bright BMW rear fog lights were on the M40 last Saturday night - despite the viz dropping to nearly less than a mile...

I have the DRLs 'on' all the time like TP and lights in 'auto' most of the time. That said, light sensors can't differentiate between good and bad viz - if the ambient light is bright enough despite it being misty then it may well not switch the main beams on. I think this might be why you see many 'premium' cars in poor viz with no lights on - drivers relying on their 'auto' lights.

DRL on and off is a simple move and pull/push of the indicator stalk I seem to remember. I can understand Anthony's wish to stay invisible at times but otherwise they aren't doing any harm. Rear lights are not illuminated on the Yeti (in common with many cars) when the DRLs are on.

Of course you could always buy Candy White - be safe be seen....

There is an option under Setup - Lights & Vision to turn the Driving Lights On or Off.

Please dont forget that using Fog lights in non foggy situations is illegal

Sorry...it bugs me constantly

Couldn't agree more...for those who are not sure...the clue is in the name 'FOG' lights.....you know lights for use in 'FOG'.

Sadly, front fog lights are now being reffered to as Daytime Running Lights (DRL). Call them what you want, there is no situation other than in limited visibility due to fog, low cloud or mist which necessitates the use of them.

If it is a matter of increasing your safety by increasing your ability to be seen by other drivers....use the facility which cars have been fitted with for the last 30 or 40 years......turn your lights on to 1st stage/side lights etc.

Personally, I think that the fog light dial/switch on all cars should illuminate the rear fog lights first, before turning the front ones on as a second stage of the switch/dial. At present it is all too easy to turn the front fog lights on without considering do I need them on? Are they of benefit to me or just a hazard to others?

Also, in non-foggy situations they offer minimal extra light onto the road other than an arc of about 5 yards ahead and 5 yards wide. Anything above10 or 15 mph and you won't have the time to avoid whatever they illuminate anyway.

When used in the wrong circumstances they are however, a right royal pain in the rump when the guy following has them on, or the guy oncoming has them on when driving on a narrow road.

Edited 21 January, 201016 yr by grobster

I think you have missed the point. The Daytime Running Lights just happen to be part of the fog light. the bulbs are in the upper quarter of the fog light unit and the Fog bulb is in the lower three quarters of the same unit. the DRLs are quite low wattage compared to the fogs.

Provided they are not disconnected by the Maxidot Setup they come on as soon as the ignition is switched on and go off when the sidelights are switched on.

Your last two sentences shows how little you know about driving the narrow lanes. At night, bacause of the intense darkness, (we have no light pollution) you can see a car, coming the opposite way, up to half a mile off. The lights reflect on the trees etc. So there is plenty of time for the fogs to be switched off, a passing place to be found and the heads to be turned to dip. Also the extra close range light given by the fogs fill the gap left by the heads on full beam. If you drove the narrow lanes, you would know that 20 mph is probably the top speed and 10-15 is normal around bendy bits. I have been driving round here for the last 40 years so I think I know about driving narrow lanes.

Edited 21 January, 201016 yr by Terfyn

I think you have missed the point. The Daytime Running Lights just happen to be part of the fog light. the bulbs are in the upper quarter of the fog light unit and the Fog bulb is in the lower three quarters of the same unit. the DRLs are quite low wattage compared to the fogs.

Provided they are not disconnected by the Maxidot Setup they come on as soon as the ignition is switched on and go off when the sidelights are switched on.

Your last two sentences shows how little you know about driving the narrow lanes. At night, bacause of the intense darkness, (we have no light pollution) you can see a car, coming the opposite way, up to half a mile off. The lights reflect on the trees etc. So there is plenty of time for the fogs to be switched off, a passing place to be found and the heads to be turned to dip. Also the extra close range light given by the fogs fill the gap left by the heads on full beam. If you drove the narrow lanes, you would know that 20 mph is probably the top speed and 10-15 is normal around bendy bits. I have been driving round here for the last 40 years so I think I know about driving narrow lanes.

Firstly, my applogies...I didn't know that on the Yeti there is a separate bulb built into the front fog light!! I now do!!

Experiance is not a guarantee that a person has expertise!! I might name a Mr Harold Shipman who had 40 years experience...and by your theory ought to have known a thing or two about careing for the elderly

I often drive in the North Yorks National Park and the North Yorks Moors, both of which have narrow lanes and minimal to zero light pollution. In my case, the headlights of my car offer satisfactory and safe levels of light to be able to drive at a speed appropriate for the roads I am on. It doesn't offer me protection from the prats (who unlike yourself) don't turn their additional lights off as they approach a vehicle.....or if they are behind a vehicle.

Using your 40 years of experience and visual awareness, you refer to the last 2 sentences of my email....(which is the only place I refer to narrow lanes that you then ramble on about)....and ask yourself if I am refering to the good people like yourself who do turn them off as they approach...or....when they are behind a vehicle???? How on earth my my 'last 2 sentences' of the email, which express my anoyance at being dazzled by cars oncoming or behind with these lights on, shows my lack of experience of driving on narrow country lanes...I will never know.

As you will know, head lights are generally adjusted to offer a near side bias, and when driving at an appropriate speed they do exactly that! Admittedly, some lights are btter than others at doing so. One of the few times that the full beam needs to be used is to give you a 'read' of the road shape and bends before you approach it.

Even at such as 15mph you are travelling at approx 22ft/sec. Maybe the spread of the beam or light intensity of daylight driving lights (DRL) to which people are refering are different from the front fog lights. However on the last 6 vehicles that I have owned, the front fog lights have offered about 3 to 5 yards of visibility on front of the car, and to the respective sides. Nothing more than had been illumited by the headlights 1,2,3...10 few seconds ago etc.

I am not saying do this.....however as an example in pitch black conditions, if you were to turn off your headlights and drive solely with front fog lights on or these DRL on... how much visibility of the road does it give you, that you can actually act upon?......at speeds above 10 mph or so...im guessing minimal if any!! Hence, for those driving at 20 to 70mph the visibility of the road that it offers is not something you can act upon. Hence, what use are they?.......I have no doubt people will put them on and drive at these speeds?

Back to my previous email, unless it's foggy, low cloud or misty, or pehaps if you are mud cruching off road etc.....front Fog lights, DRL's are more of a cosmetic, than a functional addition to the car. :p

I agree with some of the above posts. Not yet owning a Yeti it is hard for me to comment on how good the lights actually are. As my intended vehicle will have HID and bendy cornering lights, I just assume that everyone else's will have also. I find it difficult t understand why people do not specify HID lights on purchase, particularly those who actually live or need to drive in the country side. . I live on twisty dark roads also. It may well be that dipped beam might be more useful on occasions. I am not against Fogs being used in this way if someone is the only driver on the road and I agree we country dwellers do have plenty of warning about approaching cars at night because of reflections and the general changing hue of the night sky.

I do suspect that the Yeti Fog lights are much superior to other OEM fog lights because of larger size and hight of mounting. I can say that years ago I used Cibie' Super Oscar Fog Lights mounted at bumper height. They projected an exceptionally wide flat beam of light. It stretched almost as far as the dipped beams did in length also, certainly more than 5m, more like 50m. The beam cut off was exceptional flat, far flatter than Dipped Beam Headlamps of the day. Until some one has driven behind Full sized Fog lamps like the Cibie' Super Oscar or Hella 3000/4000/illuminator, then they really do not know what they are missing. It would be quite possible to drive at normal or even faster than normal speeds on Fog Lamps such a these, even with the rest of the lights switched off. Further more because of the attention to detail that quality manufacturers pay to their premium range of super large rally fog lights, together with above bumper mounting, that I doubt any glare would affect oncoming drivers, so long as they where properly mounted and aimed. We must remember that he Fog Light Laws are very old, when just mounting any old lamp below a set hight, that is below normal bumper height that it was deemed by law to be a Fog Light, regardless of its beam setting. That also lens design was generally very poor indeed, that light scatter was a certainty. That because of below bumper mounting, lights were commonly projected at angles above the horizon. Above bumper mounting actually encourages people to project the beam to angle slightly below the horizontal and hence also less dazzle. Above bumper mounting might also change the rule of law on a point of technicality.

Sure Fog Lamps can be identified by their heavy fluting before switching them on and when we do theygive a particular falt beam of light and also these dats lights are "E" coded for type but if they are mounted above the hight that has been legally specified for Fog Lights, thenit cud be argued that they are not fog lights but auxilary ligts such as driving lights. It is illegal however to display more than one pair of lights when on dipped beam however. The Law does have lots of contradictions and loopwhole concerning lighting but slidingout of one rulling brings oone into the arms of another generally.

I was hoping that the HID lights of the Yeti together with the bendy lights that seperate or additional auxiary lights would be rendered superflous. perhaps I shuld start planning for a rally type lighting pod complete with 4 huge drivinglamps.

Great Post Anthony 1 - Cibie's are certainly a blast from my past. I remember them well!! :yes: