I've noticed reading through the specs that VAG don't offer the combination of 4x4, dsg and the 125kw(170hp) 350Nm diesel.

But they do offer the 4x4 dsg with the 320Nm 103kw diesel and with the 350Nm V6 petrol.

Does anyone know the reasons why?

Does the V6 use a different DSG box to the high power diesel?

Is it the same DSG box but it can't handle 350Nm at lower rpm? Is this why the V6 owners report not much torque down low? Has the V6 had it's low rpm torque cut to work with the limitations of the dsg 4x4 gearbox?

It doesn't affect me in any way, I don't want that combination, I'm just curious why it doesn't exist.

You've said everything that was running through my head...? I'm left with nothing to add!

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I believe it to be plain and simple. VW do not want to harm sales of the Passat in that combination for their mainstream and all-road models.

Many forums suggest getting the 140bhp Tdi 4x4 with DSG and re-map.

The 170bhp spec was the combination I wanted - ended up with V6 that has same torque figures, but nowhere near the Tdi in the rev band.

In Norway VW offers the combination of 170 + DSG + 4x4. It's VAG way to split up the market.

its vag policy ! (not a technical problem) my dealer is frustrated...not beeing able to offer 170 dsg with 4x4 !

Ah I see.

Is there any site with specifics on the VW group transmissions? Torque capacity, gear ratios etc? In the skoda factory I saw assembly of their 200Nm 5 speed petrol box.

The V6 box is differant to the deisel. It uses differant ratios to utilise the torque and power at differant revs, and the V6 has a higher top speed. We also get launch mode

It is frustrating that the 125kw/4x4/DSG combo is not available as a package from the factory, but at least Skoda NZ will sell you a 103kw/4x4/DSG car with stage 1 upgrade (140kw, 410Nm) with the factory warranty fully intact. This is the option I've gone for. Should be getting the car in a few days after a nearly 7 month wait!

It is frustrating that the 125kw/4x4/DSG combo is not available as a package from the factory, but at least Skoda NZ will sell you a 103kw/4x4/DSG car with stage 1 upgrade (140kw, 410Nm) with the factory warranty fully intact. This is the option I've gone for. Should be getting the car in a few days after a nearly 7 month wait!

Really?

I'm planning to scare my skoda dealer in a few weeks when I ask him about the lead time on an irish spec 125kw manual 4x4 superb. I've already talked my way around the vw dealer's insistence I just buy a NZ spec auto (I told him I'd buy a manual Hyundai before an auto passat). This followed by a short silence and a quick phone call. But the superb looks a far nicer car than the passat

Who is doing the remap for them?

Edited 10 May, 201214 yr by Kiwibacon

I think it's DNA Tuning. I'm getting mine from Giltrap Skoda in Auckland so they'd be able to give you more details.

Are the turbochargers the same between the 103 and 125kw engines?

I do a little diesel work myself and to go from 320 to 410Nm on a 2 litre diesel with no hardware changes is pretty extreme.

320Nm balances out nicely with the measured 20psi boost (scangauge), 200g/kwh BSFC, A/F 20:1 and 95% VE.

To go to 410Nm and dropping the A/F ratio to a relatively safe and clean 17:1 would require the boost to be increased from around 20 to around 24psi.

If they haven't raised the boost that high, your exhaust soot and exhaust temperatures will be through the roof.

There isn't any public info on these turbochargers to know if they are safe running that boost. They could be at sea-level but I wouldn't like to take one over a south island alpine pass at full song.

Edited 10 May, 201214 yr by Kiwibacon

i have heard that the 125 kw has a bigger turbo ? But dont know !

i have heard that the 125 kw has a bigger turbo ? But dont know !

Looking through turbomaster it appears they do. But looking through the vw, audi and skoda lists it's hard to find both 140 and 170 versions on the same page.

http://www.turbomast...nger_cars/audi/

http://www.turbomast...ars/volkswagen/

http://www.turbomast...ger_cars/skoda/

But in a nutshell, I wouldn't be comfortable tuning a 140hp version I owned to those levels with the stock turbo. You'd likely be okay taking it to the 170hp power and torque levels as long as the altitude derating in the ECU hasn't been monkeyed with.

There was an error in the boost figures I posted last night. I've since fixed them.

Edited 10 May, 201214 yr by Kiwibacon

Kiwibacon, you clearly understand these things a lot better than me, so I'm a little worried. What are the potential problems that may occur? At least it'll be under warranty and I'll sell it in 3 years. Not planning to go down to the South Island in it - don't like the Cook Strait Ferry!

To get more torque from a diesel you have to increase the fuel. That's written in stone. It's how you do the rest that matters.

You then have a range of options centred around either raising the boost pressure to give it an equal increase in air-flow (to keep the richest air/fuel ratio the same) or change the air/fuel calibration to let the engine run a richer (and hotter) air/fuel ratio at high load.

The extra boost pressure can quickly reach the pressure and/or flow limits of the factory turbocharger. A richer air/fuel ratio results in hotter exhaust temperatures and more soot into the DPF exhaust filter. A combination of the two is the usual approach.

To get 410Nm from the 103kw engine with the richest safe tune requires about 24psi boost. Keeping the same air/fuel ratio as stock would require ~32psi boost.

So tuning (aka remapping) revolves around the balancing act of fuel, boost and air/fuel ratio within the hardware limitations you have. It's a subject that gets more scary the more you know about it. Some tuners are computer guys who know how to hack the tables in the software, but have little understanding of what it's doing to to the engine parts. Just because you can get huge increases, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Most tuning boxes and remaps offer around ~20% improvement to factory torque levels. This ~20% comes from the difference between the stock air/fuel levels which manufacturers are tied to to pass emissions tests and the amount which can be safely increased while increasing emissions but without having to add extra boost.

The stock 103kw engine has 320Nm, a 20% increase on that would take you to the high 300's and would be reasonably safe from a turbocharger point of view. It would make life more difficult for the DPF and the transmission is a big question mark.

The problem with turbochargers is a bigger turbo with more capacity for both boost and flow will not boost as early, drivability suffers. This is why manufacturers are generally using the smallest turbocharger they can get away with. Some have very little head-room in them. A few years back a lot of cars were suffering failures of stock turbos (broken shafts etc). Parts which die at stock loads just die sooner if asked to work harder. A lot of modern diesels are running compound turbochargers to share the load. One feeds boost into the other to share the load and extend the boost range. I don't think VAG has done this yet, but I expect it on their next generation of engines.

I have quite a different set of requirements to most. I'm at the other end of the country, I drive alpine passes and I often drive out of cell reception for long stretches at a time (coast road from Hokitika to Wanaka for example). I'm looking to get a superb in the near future but one I plan to keep for 10 years or so.

So my plan is:

125kw engine (because I can) manual gearbox 4x4. I'll likely wait until 2013 spec is known (scout?).

When it's out of warranty I'll get the DPF removed and mapped out with EGR shut down. I'll stick to factory power/torque levels which should be plenty for both taking hills in top gear and passing trucks in tight spots.

Edited 11 May, 201214 yr by Kiwibacon

talked to dealer yesterday about scout light model. He said its the reason why the prices and spec is so late for superb 2013 is because they got green light very late for production of this model ! They first said no then changed mind ! They are probably the VAG board !!

So I've been gearbox data hunting. I haven't found anything skoda specific, but interesting all the same.

The manual 6 speed is the MQ 350 which comes with a whole slew of different ratios. It's rated to 350Nm maximum torque (which is why the 125kw tdi and 3.6L V6 engines show the torque curve cropped to 350Nm).

The DSG 6 speed is the DQ250 which is one of the earlier DSG boxes and runs two wet clutches.

The later 7 speed DSG (Dq200) is limited to 250Nm but runs dry clutches and is a lot more efficient.

The new DQ500 is a longitudinal box with dry clutches and a very high torque capacity.

So, the current 6 speed DSG is the least efficient box they have. While they claim the 7 speed DSG box can beat manuals in the standard fuel economy cycles, I think this is an artifact of having more gears, it still has to have higher parasitic loads than a manual so in flat crusing will impact fuel economy.

Seat publish all the gear-ratio data for their cars and this is showing some weird figures.

If you look at the ratios for this 103kw tdi with the 6 speed manual, 4th and 5th gears are almost identical. This has to be a typo, but the same figures are on a whole lot of sites.

http://seatcp.com/seat_engines.php?seat_id=11&engine_id=123

Also crunhing the numbers shows this car doing 2,500rpm at 100km/h. The listed top speed would have it on the rev limiter in 6th gear. So I'm not sure I can trust those figures at all.

The Seat Exeo (is this an old audi?) has ratios that look like Skoda would use. But is this a longitudinal or transverse engine?

http://seatcp.com/seat_engines.php?seat_id=12&engine_id=96

Works out to 1750rpm cruise at 100km/h in 6th.

Because this page lists exactly the same ratios, but a completely different gearbox model: http://seatcp.com/seat_engines.php?seat_id=13&engine_id=103

Okay, things are becoming clearer.

The MQ350 gearbox runs two different gearsets onto the final drive, these are effectively one final drive ratio for the first 1-4 gears and another final drive ratio for the 5th and 6th gears.

I found this Seat reference page here: http://translate.goo...6prmd%3Dimvnsfd

But none of them are particularly high geared. I get ~1800rpm at 100km/h for the 170hp/125kw gearboxes. I'm looking for this same infortmation relating to the 2wd vs 4wd superb 2 with the 125kw diesel.

Basically I want to know if the 4wd is lower geared or not.

Edited 13 May, 201214 yr by Kiwibacon

For those interested. Here is the SSP (self study program) guide for the 6 speed manual. This one is badged 02M for model code (the paper is dated 1998), but I believe the MQ350 is the same box.

http://www.volkspage...ssp/SSP_205.pdf

Edited 14 May, 201214 yr by Kiwibacon