Hairy DSG moment...

[nockmeister]

Had a WTF moment this morning thanks to my DSG deciding to have a brain fart. Rolling upto a roundabout manually changed down to first via paddles, enough gap, hit the gas and onto the roundabout...NOTHING...I'm first thinking ok hesitation, more gas, er more gas...then looking at the revs see them fluttering between 1200-1500RPM. Car rolls to a halt, in the MIDDLE of the roundabout, (as its a mini one). Bang it into Neutral, then Drive, another second of f**k all...aaaah power and drive off sheepishly...embarrasing.

Please don't tell me this is the way I drive, blah blah...its a design fault. I can't believe this si****ion would not be tested for and should be controlled by the DSG.

And please no this has never happened to my car and i've done a billion miles in it...my leaner drivers are better than you...you suck, learn to drive b*ll*cks!! I work in semiconductor manufacturing, we supply to automotive customers. If we supplied a chip/box with these characteristics we would be designed out of the vehicle and probably never used again!!

[sharkrider]

get it to the garage then... its under warrenty.......

and I take it the "my learners are better than you" is a swipe at me...... I'm not stupid, your description is obviousley some hardware/software failure, not your driving,you leave no peramiters for speculation, I can tell the difference you know. IT'S MY JOB!

[newbie69]

Yep, I know what you mean, this is my thread almost a year ago when I had only had the car for 1 week or so:

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/212137-dsg-vrs-has-this-happened-to-you/

Shortly, I can tell you my conclusions on this one: I realized you should not try to shift down to 1st manually even though you'd do this in another car because:

1) The DSG gear ratio is such that 2nd gear will be able to pull off in almost all si****ions (unless completely stopped before a steep uphill)

2) Under certain circumstances, If timed correctly (actually incorrectly) you can cause the DSG to stall exactly the way you (and I) did.

I've never had this happening again after the 1st week, simply because I never manually shifted down to a gear below 2nd. I tested this will all other combinations (dropping from 5th to 2nd at the same time as the box hence 2 gears down at once) and no problem. This only happened when I specifically wanted to engage 1st at the same time as the box which to be honest, proved not necessary as anyway 2nd gear is more than adequate to pull off in most cases.

Prove me wrong and let me know that the dealer/Skoda recognize this as a problem which is solved with an update but I seriously doubt there is an update out for this one.

[nockmeister]

SharkRider

LOL...sorry wasn't a swipe, just banter!! And as you rightly say, a trip to the dealer to be arranged today

Newbie69

Yeah, I have seen a few posts on this, and I try and change down just before the DSG brain...this time it caught me out

[sharkrider]

Yep, I know what you mean, this is my thread almost a year ago when I had only had the car for 1 week or so:

http://www.briskoda....appened-to-you/

Shortly, I can tell you my conclusions on this one: I realized you should not try to shift down to 1st manually even though you'd do this in another car because:

1) The DSG gear ratio is such that 2nd gear will be able to pull off in almost all si****ions (unless completely stopped before a steep uphill)

2) Under certain circumstances, If timed correctly (actually incorrectly) you can cause the DSG to stall exactly the way you (and I) did.

I've never had this happening again after the 1st week, simply because I never manually shifted down to a gear below 2nd. I tested this will all other combinations (dropping from 5th to 2nd at the same time as the box hence 2 gears down at once) and no problem. This only happened when I specifically wanted to engage 1st at the same time as the box which to be honest, proved not necessary as anyway 2nd gear is more than adequate to pull off in most cases.

Prove me wrong and let me know that the dealer/Skoda recognize this as a problem which is solved with an update but I seriously doubt there is an update out for this one.

good answwer... I have never experiance the si****ion the OP describes, as ive never tried to change to first at a roundabout, so my gearbox may do exactly the same....

just another example of learning the system in my opinion but still a fault no the less... shouldn't happen !

[sharkrider]

SharkRider

LOL...sorry wasn't a swipe, just banter!! And as you rightly say, a trip to the dealer to be arranged today

Newbie69

Yeah, I have seen a few posts on this, and I try and change down just before the DSG brain...this time it caught me out

not a problem... I understand your frustration (and that of others) if my car kept doing this I'd loose faith in it and change it! could be dangerous :(

[Wilko251088]

I find when driving in M it's best to let the car change down itself coming up to junctions, roundabouts etc. I only use the down stick or paddle motion when needing to; overtaking or night time lane driving.

[newbie69]

Yes it's certainly frustrating that you can unintentionally cause the DSG to "stall" in the middle of the road. However, after the 1st time this happens, If you realise the cause of the problem, the shock is such that you never try to do this again! At least that's how it affected me and I've not come across this after the 1st week! It's strange actually that it occured to you after such a long time. I'd think its something most probable to experience when you are still learning the car and the box.

[hertsnminds]

The question for the insurance company, should you have an accident, is were you at fault (for overriding the cars systems) or was the manufacturer at fault for allowing the system to create such a scenario?

[Ootohere]

JMHO.

'User Error!'.

It is not a 'Playstation' game, even tho it sometimes feels like it,

Best idea not drop into '1st' if you are not coming to a complete stop in a 'Twin Charger' with DSG.

Like on a computer, it might just freeze.

Different results from having to Re-load tho.

My other half often says to me,

'First time is stupid

& doing it a second time when you know what can happen it is f***in stupid'.

george

Edited 19 June, 2012 by sk4gw

[newbie69]

George I'd have to strongly disagree here,

As much as I understand that dropping to 1st is un-necessary in the first place (said that already), I can similarly understand that If someone who's been told he has an Auto box with Manual function he can use whenever he feels to and ends up stalling in the middle of a roundabout, calls this a serious imperfection of the box's design (software's design actually). After all, it's something that people may have been doing in manual cars for many years so even if its wrong in this case, it's not easy to avoid.

DSG is a highly complex and smart piece of technology, it wouldn't be too hard adding another small protection algorithm for such a scenario, my only guess is that this didn't come up in the test and developing otherwise its plain stupid to have left it like this. And rest assured that If there ever was an accident caused by this, VW would have their a$$es in serious trouble If it went public. No way they could blame the driver since there's not any warning of this in the user manual whatsoever.

Having said that, this anomaly doesn't really bother me and would by no way be a reason to change my car. But that's just me... Somebody else who doesn't want to go that deep or doesn't hang around in forums etc. would have every right to feel nervous about it.

[Ootohere]

We got a post and a description of what happened, it was maybe the way described and maybe it was not.

If he has a faulty box, then best get it fixed.

It can become Urban or forum myth as a feature of the DSG, like so many other forum posts become.

Disagree all you like with me,

you are welcome to your opinion.

Best to go away out on a back road and play about with the DSG on your vRS and see what different Paddle shifts down to 1,

or in S or D etc does and try different road surfaces and weather conditions, and find someplace with some mud or diesel on the road and then do a drop to 1st and boot it.

You might be please to get a gearbox that over rides your instructions..

I have a DSG in my TD van and it does not even like 1st for a rolling in si****ion and traction to the tyres and the turbo coming in.

I have had 'only Automatics' since 1977 and many types.

I will stick with how i drive 'In Public' and when 'Playing, if i want to know the full ability or flaws in any particular vehicle i will get that all tried out away from 'public eyes' and know what a 'box' can do and not do.,

A 'Twin Charger' is a bit like a rear wheel drive M3 with DSG or any car with a split personality,

there are times when its best to not show off or take liberties, but again that is just my opinion.

&

you do what you do and have fun..

george

Edited 19 June, 2012 by sk4gw

[newbie69]

We got a post and a description of what happened, it was maybe the way described and maybe it was not.

If he has a faulty box, then best get it fixed.

It can become Urban or forum myth as a feature of the DSG, like so many other forum posts become.

Disagree all you like with me,

you are welcome to your opinion.

Best to go away out on a back road and play about with the DSG on your vRS and see what different Paddle shifts down to 1,

or in S or D etc does and try different road surfaces and weather conditions, and find someplace with some mud or diesel on the road and then do a drop to 1st and boot it.

You might be please to get a gearbox that over rides your instructions..

I have a DSG in my TD van and it does not even like 1st for a rolling in si****ion and traction to the tyres and the turbo coming in.

I have had 'only Automatics' since 1977 and many types.

I will stick with how i drive 'In Public' and when 'Playing,

& you do what you do.

george

Well first, I think I believe him because the way he describes it, is as If he was co-driver in my car last year when this very same thing occured in mine... And we drive very far away from each other apparently!

As for testing it yourself, this is not a guaranteed behaviour that will occur every time you drop in 1st, otherwise VW would have discovered it long time ago. I had repeatedly tried to reproduce it back then and took me quite a few efforts to accomplish it. It needs to meet certain conditions in order to come up and for some people these conditions may never be met during the whole car's life. That's not strange as some people in this forum have even claimed they never use their DSG in any other mode than D-Auto and are never-ever touching their paddles. Well of course these people will never come across this bug If that's what you mean.

I also don't get your point on muddy/oily surfaces. I hope you don't mean that the box overrides your command and decides to stall just in case the road you were on was oily or muddy? Next thing would be to automatically brake the car If we did more than 50mph just in case there was a pedestrian in the middle of the road. And in a more serious note, none of the incidents took place in such a "low-traction" surface so again, not a reason for the DSG to override anything.

Things are pretty simple imho. There is clearly something forgotten in the DSG's software controls and that's why it's come up to some people who like to fiddle with their box and have control of their car all the time. VW could easily launch an update on this and just prevent similar si****ions It's probably because people like me (or you) don't want to moan loud enough or even agree to recognize it as If it would depreciate their car's value and status, that it's still not dealt with.

[Ootohere]

I read your original thread last year and your points now.

You have had your experiences and you seem to know what the DSG can and can not do,

so i will stay out of your debate.

You know how you want it to drive and how you want to 'play about' with your car on the road.

As long as you are no place near me when doing it i will be happy.

george

PS, i dont know your areas roads,

but my areas Roundabout and junctions are best asumed to be Low Traction areas.

Have you ever been a Motor Cycle rider??

Edited 19 June, 2012 by sk4gw

[arnold]

i 100% agree with Newbie69 with this. Its happened to me on roundabouts as well only when changing to 1st gear. I let the engine do all the downchanging now approaching junctions etc and have had no problems since.Its highly embarrasing and as mentioned and so intermittent ... No one particular change catches it out when shifting to 1st. No fault codes logged or anything and i should imagine a nighmare to resolve....

[newbie69]

You know how you want it to drive and how you want to 'play about' with your car on the road.

As long as you are no place near me when doing it i will be happy.

Oh! I am a bad driver now ok... Excuse me but I mentioned some proper arguments because personally, I don't feel I need to talk down on your driving abilities in order to prove my point so don't expect a reply from me on this one...

Nockmeister, pardon the off-topic!

i 100% agree with Newbie69 with this. Its happened to me on roundabouts as well only when changing to 1st gear. I let the engine do all the downchanging now approaching junctions etc and have had no problems since.Its highly embarrasing and as mentioned and so intermittent ... No one particular change catches it out when shifting to 1st. No fault codes logged or anything and i should imagine a nighmare to resolve....

I know... Even though as I said it doesn't bother me anymore because since that time I got used not to go very low a gear myself, I fully understand one's complaints and certainly believe it's something VW should have fixed in the first place or at least send out an update... I could actually be guilty of not complaining to my dealer enough etc. etc. because I figured out what I shouldn't do and was ok with it. But If everybody does the same thing about all faults then we would never actually see updates and things improving.

Edited 19 June, 2012 by newbie69

[MartynVRS]

Mine drops into 1st regularly since I use paddles a lot but I don't do that myself. What I do if I'm on paddles and slowing down I drop down the box as normal until I get to 2nd and let it decide if it needs 1st or not. I've found in manual it's less reluctant to go to 2nd at lower rpm. In auto it changes up to 2nd before you notice. Can't remember ever changing to 1st on the paddles, I've never needed to but I'll try it on the way home

[newbie69]

Mine drops into 1st regularly since I use paddles a lot but I don't do that myself. What I do if I'm on paddles and slowing down I drop down the box as normal until I get to 2nd and let it decide if it needs 1st or not. I've found in manual it's less reluctant to go to 2nd at lower rpm. In auto it changes up to 2nd before you notice. Can't remember ever changing to 1st on the paddles, I've never needed to but I'll try it on the way home

Yep, same here. I let it do what it wants from 2 and below. Actually, I never wanted to engage 1st myself anyway, but on these 2 occasions last year I wanted to shift down from 3rd to 2nd but was reluctant as I didn't yet know how much torque I would have at my hands If I kept 3rd gear in. So the box did it itself at the same time I decided I should it so it was 2 gears down and stall. Better decide quick If you want to do this or not, that's my attitude since then!

[Ootohere]

newbie69,

in no way am i saying you are bad driver,

'I am an old 'boy racer' and i will be till i die.

But got the T shirt & had the points and the bans and had to get the NCB back a few times over the years from getting it wrong,

so i now try to know when to mess about and not.

Now as an old boy racer i know when to stay away from younger 'Boy racers' incase they are anything like i was with what i thought was powerful cars and not a clue really.

Sorry but a 'workman can blame his tools',

& personally i think if you buy a 15 grand car with a degree of performance and a pretty good gearbox then use it to its best advantage and enjoy and try not to break it.

If the box is flawed then say it and do something about it,

i tend to think 'User Error' in this case tho.

george

Edited 19 June, 2012 by sk4gw

[nockmeister]

JMHO.

'User Error!'.

It is not a 'Playstation' game, even tho it sometimes feels like it,

Best idea not drop into '1st' if you are not coming to a complete stop in a 'Twin Charger' with DSG.

Like on a computer, it might just freeze.

Different results from having to Re-load tho.

My other half often says to me,

'First time is stupid

& doing it a second time when you know what can happen it is f***in stupid'.

george

BRILLIANT reply...

Please show me where in the drivers manual it states you cannot use 1st gear unless stopped?? If you can't then just maybe is not 'User Error!'

It is not a 'Playstation' game, even tho it sometimes feels like it

Hmmm I don't recall saying that I was strumming the paddles like a Les Paul...or that I thought i was playing GT f**king 5...

My other half often says to me,

'First time is stupid

& doing it a second time when you know what can happen it is f***in stupid'.

Hmm my ex-other half often says to me,

Get ta f**k troll...

[Ootohere]

Do not Troll then!......

Take care driving home unless the faulty car is already booked in and collected....

george

[nockmeister]

newbie69,

in no way am i saying you are bad driver,

'I am an old 'boy racer' and i will be till i die.

But got the T shirt & had the points and the bans and had to get the NCB back a few times over the years from getting it wrong,

so i now try to know when to mess about and not.

Now as an old boy racer i know when to stay away from younger 'Boy racers' incase they are anything like i was with what i thought was powerful cars and not a clue really.

,Sorry but a 'workman can blame his tools'

& personally i think if you buy a 15 grand car with a degree of performance and a pretty good gearbox then use it to its best advantage and enjoy and try not to break it.

If the box is flawed then say it and do something about it,

i tend to think 'User Error' in this case tho.

george

oooh so I can't drive now can I...wow I didn't realise I was in the presence of a driving god (demi) unless sk4gw is a nom de plume for M.Schumacher, in which case I bow down to your superior driving skills and vehicular knowledge...

LOL...you've wrongfully assumed I was canning the arse off it. The roundabout is atop of a steep ramp leading from a supermarket garage forcourt, the roundabout is usually very busy

If the box is flawed then say it and do something about it,

It's a software issue, I'm convinced. I'm ****e at writing C++ could you help at it does need an expert coder??

[nockmeister]

Do not Troll then!......

Take care driving home unless the faulty car is already booked in and collected....

george

Your the one trolling fella...you've offered nothing but derision...oh apart from the last comment, well done!!

[Ootohere]

I just went out in the vRS and tried different senarios since i do sometimes when going along in traffic or in snow/ice/rain decelerate when driving by dropping it to 'S',

but most often buy knocking across to Manual and maybe coming down a few more gears, 6, 5, 4 & know back across to D.

Sometimes down to 3rd,

but never really 2 manually and never come to 1 apart from coming to a dead stop or trying it when i first drove a vRS DSG.

I never very often use the paddles other than out trying them, i like to use the gearstick when out driving and getting a move on on twisty and or hilly roads.

(i just am not keen on the indicator on the left and find this annoying driving manually into and out of Roundabouts)

So driving the vRS like i would slightly do in my Transporter which is 6 gears.

My car near stands on its nose as you get down to 2 manually from coming along the road at 50 or so and slowing down with the brakes or bringing it down the gears manually,

and that is at 15 mph-10 mph by that time when it came from 3rd to 2nd.

When i dropped it to 1, it was starting to rev near to 5000 revs,

*not a good way to treat the box IMO*

and if i came to a 'near halt' and then put the foot down and it stayed in 1, it was screaming its head off.

I needed to pull the paddle to 2 and hold for the second to go into D or knock across to D and get on with things.

I did not want to be manually changing up through the gears on the paddle.

I am no driving god or even claim to be,

I do live cars and work with cars & drive many cars, hobby and work.

All of them are automatics or Auto clutch and have been since i was a teenager and lost a leg.

but on a commute or shopping or dander along rolling into a Roundabout i will never be manually going down to 1 and expecting to get a nice smooth run into and out of that si****ion.

So yes your box or programme is probably faulty,

& it might well be the way you have been driving it.

george

Edited 19 June, 2012 by sk4gw

[James vrs]

This has happened to my car twice within the 2 months. The dsg just gets confused if you are changing down manually and it is trying to do it automatically. Once it happens once then you know what to do and its not so bad. Just into neutral and back to drive. Its a bit hairy the first time tho.