I believe the IAM position on this is that they would rather you did not cross the centre lines but you can legitimately use all the roadspace inbetween. However, the examiners tend to be a little more open-minded and are happy for you to use the full width of the road provided it's safe and there is an advantage to doing it. The key for me is to use it to *develop* an existing view, rather than to try and gain a view by positioning from an already limited viewpoint balancing with things like potential tyre damage, other driver perceptions and expectations.

I was only moving within the boundaries of the left lane, so not crossing either the verge warning, nor the centre line markings, just moving closer to them that was all. Sometimes though cutting right across to eliminate a kink to keep your VP at 1000yds+ is worth considering. Telegraph poles can be your friend (though not always, as I discovered aged 18 in my Father's Marina, it was a 120 hairpin, not a 30 degree kink. Ouch)

Yup, but mine isn't a diesel.

That's interesting. I've only felt the need to take an intermediate gear in turbo-diesel engined cars, never had the issue in cars with petrol engines. Perhaps that's because although I've driven a reasonable selection, I'm more likely to be found in them on fun roads where this doesn't seem to me to be a problem.

I imagine this is only an issue in cars that have a combination of enormous torque at low engine speeds and some kind of active anti-stall system which fights against the engine speed dipping too low. I really don't know what kind of petrol engined car this is likely to be a problem in, though. ... ScoobyChris - any ideas?

Edited 6 February, 201313 yr by AnotherGareth

stever750 - not knowing your car makes it hard to know whether you really do need an intermediate gear.

I don't have a 6-speed petrol car to try in - my wife's has only 5 forward gears but I imagine 5th in hers can't be that different to 6th in yours. It's a non-turbo, about 200 bhp, if that helps for comparison. Anyway, if we were driving it in 5th gear at 70 mph on a dual carriageway and slowing for a roundabout, we'd have no trouble braking firmly while staying in gear with the clutch up, all the way to the point of the decision to stop or select 2nd or 3rd as appropriate to continue onto the roundabout.

Without knowing more about your situation, my remaining quesstion is whether you've been trying to drag the braking out over too long a distance. This is one thing that's hard to get a handle on without discussing it in the car. In my description above we're not talking last minute braking but something in-between that and the long drawn out light braking that some people who start advanced driving try, in what they think is the right way to be smooth on the brakes.

This kind of braking fits in well with the traffic around - it doesn't stand out in the way that excessively gentle braking does.

Edited 7 February, 201313 yr by AnotherGareth

I'd agree in that I've only encountered this in diesels which have fairly tall gearing but I don't think I've come across a petrol which behaves similarly. Not to say they don't exist though, especially with the trend towards flatter torque curves starting at low revs and the goal of better cruising fuel economy

My money would still be on the braking phase though (as I remember all too well being guilty of the same thing when I started out!).

Chris

Ok, I'm not going to try and sort out an editted multiquote to get all the gears stuff in one place.

I've driven 6-speed TDis and 5-speed V@*xh@11s geared to about 35mph/1000rpm in top. I find that they tend to want a skip shift from 6 to 4 at about 40 unless you're in the situation where you're certain you're going to have to stop, or you can reasonably expect to take 2 or 3 and pick up drive somewhere in the 20s or 30s.

I was only moving within the boundaries of the left lane, so not crossing either the verge warning, nor the centre line markings, just moving closer to them that was all. Sometimes though cutting right across to eliminate a kink to keep your VP at 1000yds+ is worth considering. Telegraph poles can be your friend (though not always, as I discovered aged 18 in my Father's Marina, it was a 120 hairpin, not a 30 degree kink. Ouch)

I can't see anything wrong with that, as long as you're not running into loose gravel, puddles or possible broken glass when you're positioning left.

I am moving to a new company as of the 1st of march and they have all the monitoring systems in place on all the trucks for harsh braking and fuel economy, I have been driving professionally for 15 years but am not naive enough to believe I am gods gift to driving. I think having a go at iam would probably benefit me at work and help me hit the targets I need to get the bonuses as well as improve my road craft, anyone on here an observer in my area? I live in barnoldswick Lancashire so skipton or burnley are my nearest big ish places

I think having a go at iam would probably benefit me at work and help me hit the targets I need to get the bonuses as well as improve my road craft, anyone on here an observer in my area? I live in barnoldswick Lancashire so skipton or burnley are my nearest big ish places

Drop Paul007 a PM - think he's involved (Membership secretary?) in the East Lancs IAM group

Chris

I've driven 6-speed TDis and 5-speed V@*xh@11s geared to about 35mph/1000rpm in top.

Were the Vauxhalls petrols or TDIs? A quick Google suggests that the petrol vRS does 70mph at around 2400rpm in 6th which I make around 29mph / 1000 rpm so not too high that declutching for the final stage of the "speed" phase would prove a problem, assuming that we were still actively braking.

Looks like the 5-speed Alfa is doing 75mph at 3000rpm so a not too dissimilar 25mph / 1000rpm...

Chris

Were the Vauxhalls petrols or TDIs? A quick Google suggests that the petrol vRS does 70mph at around 2400rpm in 6th which I make around 29mph / 1000 rpm so not too high that declutching for the final stage of the "speed" phase would prove a problem, assuming that we were still actively braking.

Looks like the 5-speed Alfa is doing 75mph at 3000rpm so a not too dissimilar 25mph / 1000rpm...

Chris

Petrols, with the manufacturer's usual absurdly over-high gearing.

This conversation shows quite clearly the inherent limitations in the IAM system. The observers are often giving you information that is possibly 20 people or more removed from the original info and the interpretation / understanding can be seriously degraded / corrupted / lost in this passing of information. Further, there seems to be no formal structure for the qualification of teaching the subject. Observers may well demonstrate an acceptable drive, but they are not trained in dissemination of these skills to others, which can be an issue too. Clear demonstration of this being my last IAM or RoSPA test (cannot remember which) where the examiner asked who I had as an observer. When I told him, he asked if I found the progress rate lower than I would have expected. Yes was my answer, to which the examiner said that he preferred "a bit more sparkle". To be honest, the demo drive my observer gave me was seriously lacking in pace. He would most certainly have failed a basic DSA test for failure to make adequate progress.

Leaving the engine to run extensively below idle speed will do no favours to the bottom end or DMF where fitted. The main issue is the collapse of the hydrodynamic lubrication systems in the engine and possibly gearbox. This is to be avoided for obvious reasons, but someone who has been told that you must not clutch down too far from the junction or change down prematurely may not grasp the need to fit this to vehicle type.

Key critera approaching any junction where one may be required to stop are that you:

Don't change speed so quickly that you are at risk of impact from behind

Don't slow so early that you are holding others up or making less than optimal progress

Don't brake so late that people behind you or approaching traffic assume you are not stopping

Are in an appropriate gear for the speed you are doing (IMO 10mph in 6th is inappropriate)

Are moving at a speed that allows you sufficient time for all necessary obsservation, decision making and action

All obvious to anyone that takes a little time to think about it.

Don't get me started on the BGOL thing. It was when BGOL was clearly defined as useful in Roadcraft and my local RoSPA group where implying that you could not get a gold if you used it that we parted company. I felt they would rather teach LCD driving than advanced and fooked off sharpish.

Chris

This conversation shows quite clearly the inherent limitations in the IAM system. The observers are often giving you information that is possibly 20 people or more removed from the original info and the interpretation / understanding can be seriously degraded / corrupted / lost in this passing of information.

Against that, the source material is readily available to anyone who can be bothered to read it. The lack of consistency in coaching is a reflection of the money paid; if a punter wants to be taught by a professional there are plenty available, at the usual rates for a professional.

Further, there seems to be no formal structure for the qualification of teaching the subject. Observers may well demonstrate an acceptable drive, but they are not trained in dissemination of these skills to others, which can be an issue too.

Local groups need people who see and understand these issues to step up to the mark and volunteer. Mind you I don't, so I'm a fine one to talk.

Key critera approaching any junction where one may be required to stop are ...

Are in an appropriate gear for the speed you are doing (IMO 10mph in 6th is inappropriate)

Snipped good advice but I think this point is open for discussion depending on exactly what you mean. When you're braking for a junction it's a waste of effort to be repeatedly changing down as your speed drops.

Edited 7 February, 201313 yr by AnotherGareth

Well it is clearly not mechanically suitable for any car to run significantly below idle speed, so any practice that results in this must be inappropriate, but this is what is being inferred by some observers.

This conversation shows quite clearly the inherent limitations in the IAM system. The observers are often giving you information that is possibly 20 people or more removed from the original info and the interpretation / understanding can be seriously degraded / corrupted / lost in this passing of information. Further, there seems to be no formal structure for the qualification of teaching the subject. Observers may well demonstrate an acceptable drive, but they are not trained in dissemination of these skills to others, which can be an issue too. Clear demonstration of this being my last IAM or RoSPA test (cannot remember which) where the examiner asked who I had as an observer. When I told him, he asked if I found the progress rate lower than I would have expected. Yes was my answer, to which the examiner said that he preferred "a bit more sparkle". To be honest, the demo drive my observer gave me was seriously lacking in pace. He would most certainly have failed a basic DSA test for failure to make adequate progress.<br /><br />Leaving the engine to run extensively below idle speed will do no favours to the bottom end or DMF where fitted. The main issue is the collapse of the hydrodynamic lubrication systems in the engine and possibly gearbox. This is to be avoided for obvious reasons, but someone who has been told that you must not clutch down too far from the junction or change down prematurely may not grasp the need to fit this to vehicle type.<br /><br />Key critera approaching any junction where one may be required to stop are that you:<br /><br />Don't change speed so quickly that you are at risk of impact from behind<br />Don't slow so early that you are holding others up or making less than optimal progress<br />Don't brake so late that people behind you or approaching traffic assume you are not stopping<br />Are in an appropriate gear for the speed you are doing (IMO 10mph in 6th is inappropriate)<br />Are moving at a speed that allows you sufficient time for all necessary obsservation, decision making and action<br /><br />All obvious to anyone that takes a little time to think about it.<br /><br />Don't get me started on the BGOL thing. It was when BGOL was clearly defined as useful in Roadcraft and my local RoSPA group where implying that you could not get a gold if you used it that we parted company. I felt they would rather teach LCD driving than advanced and fooked off sharpish.<br /><br />Chris

<br />Yup. <br /><br />The issue I have is iam is too prescribed like a beginners course for advanced driving, the kind of thing I'll send my 18yr old son on. I'd hoped it had moved on, been more open to safe driving for a specific driver, not just by numbers. Sadly, the the book tells me all I need to know that it's not that at all. I'm pretty sure I'll pass, I'm just not really sure it means that much.... <br /><br />Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2<br /><br /><br />

The issue I have is iam is too prescribed like a beginners course for advanced driving

The problem here is, I feel, that the IAM have a rather specific syllabus. it's their system of advanced driving, rather than yours or anyone else's. A secondary point may be that it's their method for creating safer drivers, and they're geared up to assessing driving on that basis. What makes it a bit more interesting is that it is derived from and still follows closely the method of driving that was developed for the police, and it is often examined by ex- or serving police drivers.

I'm pretty sure I'll pass, I'm just not really sure it means that much.

The challenge is in how well you'll pass, how well you've understood the course and the subtleties, and whether you use that as a basis to do more. If you're a really keen driver and can crack the IAM test, please consider spending half a day with Clive Jones -- he's based not too far away. Since he's a professional it'll cost, but he'll make it clear how driving using the police method is meant to be done, and you'll probably build upon and learn a lot more than you do from the IAM course.

Edited 8 February, 201313 yr by AnotherGareth

This conversation shows quite clearly the inherent limitations in the IAM system. The observers are often giving you information that is possibly 20 people or more removed from the original info and the interpretation / understanding can be seriously degraded / corrupted / lost in this passing of information. Further, there seems to be no formal structure for the qualification of teaching the subject. Observers may well demonstrate an acceptable drive, but they are not trained in dissemination of these skills to others, which can be an issue too.

I have no affiliation with the IAM but my understanding from friends who are is that they are taking steps to address this and are currently rolling out a "National Observer Qualification". I'm not familiar with the details but I am hoping it will get away from the cloning process and allow people to create their own style within the framework of the System.

Clear demonstration of this being my last IAM or RoSPA test (cannot remember which) where the examiner asked who I had as an observer. When I told him, he asked if I found the progress rate lower than I would have expected. Yes was my answer, to which the examiner said that he preferred "a bit more sparkle".

I had a similar discussion when I did my IAM test. The examiner who was a bit of a petrol head fancied he could identify an observer by how an associate drove but as I'd already done a couple of other courses and was the polar opposite of my observer he was a bit miffed and asked which Police School I'd received my training from. I dare say, had I not had paid coaching and been exposed to many great drivers I would not have known any different and just become a clone of my observer

Chris

Edited 8 February, 201313 yr by ScoobyChris

I'm pretty sure I'll pass, I'm just not really sure it means that much....

I think a lot comes down to motivation and why you are doing the course. My own decision to get involved with RoSPA was that I wanted to become a better driver (cliched, eh? ) but the quality of the experience is ultimately down to the observer and mine wasn't particularly inspiring and basically said "every associate gets a bronze on their first test ... if you're lucky you might get a silver..." and was reluctant to tell me what I needed to do to get Gold. Not very satisfactory and I didn't know any other way at the time, unfortunately.

Based on my experience since then, I'd say, take what you can from the relatively cheap training available via IAM/RoSPA to instil the basics, but unless you're very lucky and get an observer with experience outside of the two organisations, there really is no substitute for paid coaching from a professional.

All imho

Chris

Interesting thread this. I've not done my IAM as such and am considering doing it just to improve my driving so this has been a useful read.

I have done quite a bit of Advanced Bike training in my past and the training I recieved was 'variable' to say the least, even within organisations so obviously a lot depends on your instructor and their own abilities.

without doubt the best training I had was from an ex police bike instructor, he taught his pupils to an extremely high level well above anything else I'd experienced. What I found out was that while paying for instruction should mean you get better training there's no guarentee it will.

I would guess the IAM will probably take me to the lower levels of advanced driving and if I do pay out the £139 that's how I'll view it, if I want something more i can then go from there. Sounds like a plan....

Ade, pretty much my conclusion. I could be lucky and get a police trained instructor, and not another red cross ambulance driver!

If you're interested in supplementing your driving outside of IAM/RoSPA, I can highly recommend the folks over at AD-UK. There's a mentoring scheme on there with lots of volunteers with a wealth of experience

http://www.advanced-driving.co.uk/forum/index.php

If either of you are ever in the London area, give me a shout and I'll happily scare you go for a drive with you

Chris

Chris is right - the IMI Institute of Motor Industry Awards are accrediting the new IAM local Observer and the new National Observer. Existing Observers and Seniors are being encouraged to take it so that all IAM Observers are at a similar level but it's not compulsory.

I think a lot comes down to motivation and why you are doing the course. My own decision to get involved with RoSPA was that I wanted to become a better driver (cliched, eh? ) but the quality of the experience is ultimately down to the observer and mine wasn't particularly inspiring and basically said "every associate gets a bronze on their first test ... if you're lucky you might get a silver..." and was reluctant to tell me what I needed to do to get Gold. Not very satisfactory and I didn't know any other way at the time, unfortunately.

Based on my experience since then, I'd say, take what you can from the relatively cheap training available via IAM/RoSPA to instil the basics, but unless you're very lucky and get an observer with experience outside of the two organisations, there really is no substitute for paid coaching from a professional.

All imho

Chris

Good advice - most people will benefit from attending RoSPA / IAM, and even learning the basics (lack of observation seems to be the main problem) may well be the difference between being involved in a life changing accident or not. I would also recommend the 'Roadcraft' book.

As some people have experienced, some of the observers/instructors like to think they are experts, and are rather anal about minor things, but you should have the opportunity to go out with different observers and get some good advice to improve the safety of your driving.

For what its worth - I am not a member of RoSPA or IAM (although I may join in the near future), but have 29 years experience as a police advanced driver & motorcyclist, LGV, PCV, VIP protection driver, and have had specialist training with Land Rover, Rolls Royce / Bentley (J turns in a Rolls Royce fitted with a roll cage and full harness belts is fun!), Subaru, etc., and the main thing is YOU NEVER STOP LEARNING!.

At the risk of banging on about this to the point of boredom, but driving to West Wales this evening along the M4 / A48 it struck me approaching one of the numerous RABs on the latter that the 30mph limit signs are a good 50 yards before the entry slip, so the correct gear in the vRS at that speed is 4th, possibly 3rd. Therefore, technically it's impossible to block change from say 6th to 3rd as you appraoch the RAB, unless you're either exceeding the speed limit, or driving the car in way too high a gear. This is why I brake, change, brake change into RABs on a DC - i.e. it's a two stage approach.

I might have misunderstood, but if there is a 30mph before the RAB, then that would be the first hazard and the second hazard would be the RAB. Therefore, your approach of treating them as two distinct hazards and running through IPSGA twice sounds sensible to me. Were the RAB subject to NSL, would you use the same approach, or would you be happy carrying more than 30mph into the last stretch?

Chris

At the risk of banging on about this to the point of boredom, but driving to West Wales this evening along the M4 / A48 it struck me approaching one of the numerous RABs on the latter that the 30mph limit signs are a good 50 yards before the entry slip, so the correct gear in the vRS at that speed is 4th, possibly 3rd. Therefore, technically it's impossible to block change from say 6th to 3rd as you appraoch the RAB, unless you're either exceeding the speed limit, or driving the car in way too high a gear. This is why I brake, change, brake change into RABs on a DC - i.e. it's a two stage approach.

I can't see why you seem to think that you can't brake from 70 to 30 in time for the nonsense (this is my opinion) with a block change 6 - 3, and then sort out the roundabout.

There are plenty of roundabouts here in Scotland where the island is still NSL, and braking with a skip shift, block shift or to rest depending on other traffic and on gearbox is normal practice.