IAM

[dbg400]

I have looked at this on and off for ages. When I passed my test I asked my instructor about it and he said it was well worth doing but to get a few years experience first. Given that was 29 years ago I probably have sufficient experience, along with plenty of bad habits to get rid of as well.

Having looked locally I see there are groups in Leeds, Harrogate and York, all pretty much equidistant for me. Anyone have any experience with one of these groups and could make a recommendation?

[ScoobyChris]

At the risk of an unhelpful reply (), I think driver training is quite a personal thing and I would just pick a group and see how you get on based on the initial response/enthusiasm of the group. Most groups ime offer a taster/demo session before you part with your cash so you can see how you get on before committing - if they don't you have to ask what they're hiding!

To further muddy the water, there is also a local RoADAR group -> http://www.wyg-roada.org.uk/

Some questions you might consider asking:

- is all the training car based, or are there classroom sessions too

- are you assigned an observer to get you to test standard or are observers rotated through associates

- what's the pass rate (IAM now have the FIRST grade which is a pass with distinction and RoADAR have bronze, silver, gold)

- average number of drives needed to be test ready

- are observed drives arranged between associate and observer or are they run regularly as a group, eg every Sunday

Let us know how you get on

Chris

[stever750]

OK, so have got the IAM "book", much the same as it was 20 years ago, but wth a bit more cool stuff for the young 'uns (the president drives a Civic Type R after all). It's still got pockets of patronising *******s, such as how to operate the handbrake correctly (as in press the button in when applying, don't run it over the ratchets. They're hardened steel FFS, and will outlast the car! And we all know not to do that anwyay?)

That stuff though I can take, almost with a smile of nostalgia and a sudden desire to buy some string backed leather gloves; that is until I get to the bit about IPSGA and turning into a RAB (P62):

"brakes are for slowing and gears are for going". I never did and still don't understand why you should leave your gear selection until the last moment when navigating a hazard, why not select it and your speed before you enter it? And why can you not use natural gentle deceleration through the gears which saves fuel, as having to brake excessively is inefficient, which is understandably an earlier "lesson". I don't mean heel and toeing through the box with a dab of left foot braking, I mean gentle slowing down as you approach the junction. I never got a proper answer from my last observer 15 years or so ago.

[jonnie5]

Ever since I wash 14 and was sitting in the back when my dad was doing his IAM training and doing his observing I've been somewhat involved with the IAM. Being a motorcycle instructor I have passed on the bike too and have did observer bit too

Sent from my iPhone upside down, using Tapatalk whilst in a taxi rank

[AnotherGareth]

have got the IAM "book", much the same as it was 20 years

Must be a different one to my copy as in mine p62 has advice about joining and leaving motorways.

It's still got pockets of patronising *******s, such as how to operate the handbrake correctly

Don't you think it needs to cover a range of knowledge and bad habits. In my copy, the comment about pressing the release button is the last in a series of advice points and, presumably, least important.

"brakes are for slowing and gears are for going". I never did and still don't understand why you should leave your gear selection until the last moment when navigating a hazard, why not select it and your speed before you enter it?

I'm surprised you've not understood the advice; it's simple enough. They're saying two things. First, don't **** about changing gear when you don't need to, but instead slow down to the required speed then make a single gear change in preparation for a hazard. Second, complete the sequence for a hazard before you reach the hazard. That sequence has your right foot returning to the accelerator before the hazard - maybe you missed the implication of that?

Edited 6 February, 2013 by AnotherGareth

[ScoobyChris]

"brakes are for slowing and gears are for going". I never did and still don't understand why you should leave your gear selection until the last moment when navigating a hazard, why not select it and your speed before you enter it? And why can you not use natural gentle deceleration through the gears which saves fuel, as having to brake excessively is inefficient, which is understandably an earlier "lesson". I don't mean heel and toeing through the box with a dab of left foot braking, I mean gentle slowing down as you approach the junction. I never got a proper answer from my last observer 15 years or so ago.

Just to add to Gareth's succint reply

Both engine braking (coming off the throttle) and brakes are tools to slow down, and as with all things, it pays to use the right tool for the job. If you're approaching a roundabout with poor visibility on a dual carriageway at 70mph, is engine braking the right tool? If you're scrubbing a few mph off as you approach slower moving traffic on a motorway, are the brakes the right tool? The "brakes to slow, gears to go" comes from braking people of the habit of going down the box until they find the right gear as they approach a hazard rather than braking to the appropriate speed and then making a single gear selection which is more efficient and also reduces the time the car is out of drive and the time your hand is off the wheel.

FWIW, I think Roadcraft is a better book than the IAM's own version of Roadcraft...

Chris

[CFB]

That's it in a nutshell.

And don't forget the IPS that comes before...

I have taken and passed both car and motorcycle tests in 2000 and took refreshers and tests in both in 2005 through work.

With IAM you can do a driving assessment before you commit to Skill For Life.

It will tell you how much you need to work on.

As said above, go visit the group you are thinking of joining to see if you fit in.

If you do join and start the observed drives, rememberif you don't get on with your observer, ask for another.

You'll never learn with someone you don't like.

[Chris GB]

Brakes show brake lights, gears do not, which is another consideration when choosing the appropriate method of showing.

Chris

[stever750]

Must be a different one to my copy as in mine p62 has advice about joining and leaving motorways.

Don't you think it needs to cover a range of knowledge and bad habits. In my copy, the comment about pressing the release button is the last in a series of advice points and, presumably, least important.

I'm surprised you've not understood the advice; it's simple enough. They're saying two things. First, don't **** about changing gear when you don't need to, but instead slow down to the required speed then make a single gear change in preparation for a hazard. Second, complete the sequence for a hazard before you reach the hazard. That sequence has your right foot returning to the accelerator before the hazard - maybe you missed the implication of that?

Page 62 in mine shows a graphic of approaching an RAB, so must indeed be different.

I guess it has to address all bad habits for everyone, I just find the prose a tad patronising, that's all. Most of the points I adopted when I was learning to drive (such is the benefit of having a father who was a policeman).

Maybe I haven't explained my point well enough, and tbh it's difficult unless in the car expaining it (though I did try to distinguish between racing down through the box, and selecting the gear early). I understand exactly the logic behind the IAM method, I just think that in some circumstances, I find it better to have changed gear sooner.

Just to add to Gareth's succint reply

Both engine braking (coming off the throttle) and brakes are tools to slow down, and as with all things, it pays to use the right tool for the job. If you're approaching a roundabout with poor visibility on a dual carriageway at 70mph, is engine braking the right tool? If you're scrubbing a few mph off as you approach slower moving traffic on a motorway, are the brakes the right tool? The "brakes to slow, gears to go" comes from braking people of the habit of going down the box until they find the right gear as they approach a hazard rather than braking to the appropriate speed and then making a single gear selection which is more efficient and also reduces the time the car is out of drive and the time your hand is off the wheel.

FWIW, I think Roadcraft is a better book than the IAM's own version of Roadcraft...

Chris

Thanks Chris, this is the most sensible reply.

Let me give an example, and this was the instruction I received from my last observer back in 1996. Imagine the scenario approachng the RAB, with a straight line entry point, now the ideal gear to be in for joining the RAB assuming you don't have to stop (so plan to go, prepare to stop) is 2nd.or 3rd gear if a smaller RAB requiring less acceleration.

If I brake from 70 mph on a dual carriageway down to 20 mph without changing gear somewhere, I will still be in 6th gear, which is under 1000 rpm. The engine is close to stalling, and is totally inappropriate for joing the RAB if it is indeed clear. I was critiscised by my observer for dipping the clutch too soon using this method, but I found leaving it until the engine was about to stall extremely distracting, and just "wrong" Subsequently adding a block change at that moment to 2nd or 3rd gear delays the decision to go or not (so if in doubt don't proceed), and for me is a big distraction to the process of judging speed and distance of other cars.

Rightly or wrongly, my approach to a RAB on a DC would be to ease of the throttle from 70, using a combination of engine and foot braking to around 30 mph with about 20 yards to the RAB entry, off the foot brake, change to 3rd gear, speed now reducing again under gentle engine and foot barking to 15-20 mph, entering the RAB entry slip. So, ready to go, in the right gear, both hands on the wheel as I enter the hazard, if I have to stop, then I can dip the clutch at around 5mph or less without risk of stalling.

(I'm guessing at the speeds/distances here so don't take it as absolute, hence so much easier to demonstrate than to explain, and am not about t go and measure them either!)

So, maybe I have misunderstood the process, but rolling up to the hazard in 6th gear, then changing as you entered the hazard was how I was taught (by an IAM observer) first time round. Changing gear is a risk in itself, why not do it sooner when the road is straight, and you are not about to join a stream of traffic?

[ScoobyChris]

Let me give an example, and this was the instruction I received from my last observer back in 1996. Imagine the scenario approachng the RAB, with a straight line entry point, now the ideal gear to be in for joining the RAB assuming you don't have to stop (so plan to go, prepare to stop) is 2nd.or 3rd gear if a smaller RAB requiring less acceleration.

I'll chuck a thought in at this point - how do you know that 2nd is a suitable gear for negotiating the hazard?

If I brake from 70 mph on a dual carriageway down to 20 mph without changing gear somewhere, I will still be in 6th gear, which is under 1000 rpm. The engine is close to stalling, and is totally inappropriate for joing the RAB if it is indeed clear. I was critiscised by my observer for dipping the clutch too soon using this method, but I found leaving it until the engine was about to stall extremely distracting, and just "wrong" Subsequently adding a block change at that moment to 2nd or 3rd gear delays the decision to go or not (so if in doubt don't proceed), and for me is a big distraction to the process of judging speed and distance of other cars.

I think part of the confusion has been introduced by cars (namely diesels) which have a lot of gears. So, if you're going for a single gear change, you'll be looking at a declutch on approach to prevent the car from stalling and weighing up whether "coasting" for that period is desirable. An alternative approach might be to run the System twice (with the first hazard being "the car will stall") so you are effectively taking an interim gear on approach, prior to rerunning the System and selecting the gear for the second hazard (the RAB). This sounds similar to your approach, with the difference being that the decision to take a gear (and which gear based on the current speed) is left until last. This way you'll always be selecting the appropriate gear for the hazard.

Hopefully that's not too confusing - as you say, the sort of thing that's much easier to show in practice than in words

So, maybe I have misunderstood the process, but rolling up to the hazard in 6th gear, then changing as you entered the hazard was how I was taught (by an IAM observer) first time round. Changing gear is a risk in itself, why not do it sooner when the road is straight, and you are not about to join a stream of traffic?

There's definitely a misunderstanding here (which could be down to the observer's interpretation) but the idea of the System is everything is in place before you enter the hazard and as Gareth points out, the last thing should be right foot moving back to the throttle before entering the hazard.

Chris

[stever750]

I'll chuck a thought in at this point - how do you know that 2nd is a suitable gear for negotiating the hazard?

I think part of the confusion has been introduced by cars (namely diesels) which have a lot of gears. So, if you're going for a single gear change, you'll be looking at a declutch on approach to prevent the car from stalling and weighing up whether "coasting" for that period is desirable. An alternative approach might be to run the System twice (with the first hazard being "the car will stall") so you are effectively taking an interim gear on approach, prior to rerunning the System and selecting the gear for the second hazard (the RAB). This sounds similar to your approach, with the difference being that the decision to take a gear (and which gear based on the current speed) is left until last. This way you'll always be selecting the appropriate gear for the hazard.

Hopefully that's not too confusing - as you say, the sort of thing that's much easier to show in practice than in words

There's definitely a misunderstanding here (which could be down to the observer's interpretation) but the idea of the System is everything is in place before you enter the hazard and as Gareth points out, the last thing should be right foot moving back to the throttle before entering the hazard.

Chris

Good point, I don't know that 2nd or 3rd IS the right gear, but based upon experience, it's more likely than 6th! I'm anticipating the RAB to be of conventional layout, and that I don't have to stop - hence 2nd or 3rd gear. The alternative is to stop, and select 1st, which of course would be done when you know for sure if it's clear or not. This is where I had the "problem". Leaving it in 6th gear until I know for sure it's GO, or STOP, then GO feels clumsy.

I think in practice I am indeed treating two different hazards - prevent the engine from stalling and negotiating an RAB. I totally agree that the foot is on / over the throttle as you negotiate the hazard!

I do feel though that Roadcraft is a better written and more clear book.

[Chris GB]

Oops, wrong button.

Edited 6 February, 2013 by Chris GB

[ScoobyChris]

Good point, I don't know that 2nd or 3rd IS the right gear, but based upon experience, it's more likely than 6th! I'm anticipating the RAB to be of conventional layout, and that I don't have to stop - hence 2nd or 3rd gear. The alternative is to stop, and select 1st, which of course would be done when you know for sure if it's clear or not. This is where I had the "problem". Leaving it in 6th gear until I know for sure it's GO, or STOP, then GO feels clumsy.

I think there's a distinction to be made between anticipation/planning and the actual decision. Ie, putting a plan together is essential, but you don't want to commit to it and select the gear for the hazard until as late as possible when you have as much information as possible. So, on a roundabout with excellent visibility I may commit to the gear (based on my current speed) well before I arrive at the hazard and not need to take an interim gear. However, on a roundabout with limited visibility (nice wooden boards obscuring my view for example ), my decision point is going to be much closer to the white line and if there is no traffic ahead of me, I may opt to declutch for the final approach and then either continue braking to the white line (if it's a STOP) or select the gear, again based on current speed, when I have the view (if it's a GO).

Also worth remembering that a gear change takes some time so plan for it in the approach to prevent it feeling clumsy/rushed.

Chris

[stever750]

That makes complete sense to me too.

My previous observer was of the opinion that I was declutching too early - I was aiming for 1000rpm in 6th. I was advised I could fail for coasting.

[KenONeill]

That makes complete sense to me too.

My previous observer was of the opinion that I was declutching too early - I was aiming for 1000rpm in 6th. I was advised I could fail for coasting.

Ok, I'm guessing a bit, but maybe a skip shift from 6 - 4 at about 40mph then?

[ScoobyChris]

I haven't seen you drive so I could be way off, but a common tendency when associates start to lift their vision and identify hazards earlier is that they begin to deal with them earlier. This can lead to a prolonged braking phase which can result in losing a lot of speed early and token braking/coasting up to the hazard. An alternative approach is to plan to brake later and more firmly (keeping it smooth and comfortable for passengers), resulting in a shorter braking phase and a lower likelihood of needing to coast for a long period of time.

Chris

[Llanigraham]

Ok, I'm guessing a bit, but maybe a skip shift from 6 - 4 at about 40mph then?

Which is the way I was "taught" when I did the RoSPA test.

[KenONeill]

Which is the way I was "taught" when I did the RoSPA test.

Yeah; I'm trying to both keep engine speed high enough that you could pick up the throttle if you needed to, and avoid 6-5-4-3-2 shifting, which IME advanced instructors and observers often percieve as slowing on the gears even though you're not using enough revs to get a spike of engine braking in the new gear.

[AnotherGareth]

stever705, if you'd said diesel earlier I might have caught your drift. In our diesel I aim to change 6th, a 'cruising' gear at 70 mph, to 3rd or 4th at about 50 mph which I've generally reached just by lifting (completely) off the throttle. It's not ideal, perhaps, but it returns the engine speed to a more flexible part of the range and, as you say, avoids having to depress the clutch at a relatively high road speed, which I really don't like.

Overall I'm mixed about doing this, but making the extra change seems a slightly nicer solution. Part of this depends on how quickly you are willing to approach the junction. If you are happy to approach at a higher speed and brake quite firmly it is possible to stay in 6th gear and declutch as the engine speed falls to, say, a little over 1000 rpm to then either stop or select an appropriate lower gear. The downside of this approach is that it eats into your time to observe.

Having re-read ScoobyChris' latest comment, I'd like to suggest there is a range of strategies for slowing down for a junction and, certainly, many people starting to do it the IAM/RoADAR way tend to drag out the braking over an extended distance, conflating gentle with smooth. Smooth only requires that the transitions onto the brakes and off again are tapered, and it is quite OK (and nearly always better) to do firm braking between.

Edited 6 February, 2013 by AnotherGareth

[stever750]

Ok, I'm guessing a bit, but maybe a skip shift from 6 - 4 at about 40mph then?

That's pretty much how I do it now. Brake and change in 2 phases. 6th -> 4th, 4th to whatever is required, with braking in between.

I did demonstrate heel and toeing in my first observed run, which clearly isn't approved, but is actually the smoothest way I know of making "good" progress.

[ScoobyChris]

I did demonstrate heel and toeing in my first observed run, which clearly isn't approved, but is actually the smoothest way I know of making "good" progress.

Did your observer say what he didn't approve about it?

Btw, not sure I agree with the second half of the sentence - I always found the loud pedal was the best way of making good progress

Chris

[stever750]

stever705, if you'd said diesel earlier I might have caught your drift. In our diesel I aim to change 6th, a 'cruising' gear at 70 mph, to 3rd or 4th at about 50 mph which I've generally reached just by lifting (completely) off the throttle. It's not ideal, perhaps, but it returns the engine speed to a more flexible part of the range and, as you say, avoids having to depress the clutch at a relatively high road speed, which I really don't like.

Overall I'm mixed about doing this, but making the extra change seems a slightly nicer solution. Part of this depends on how quickly you are willing to approach the junction. If you are happy to approach at a higher speed and brake quite firmly it is possible to stay in 6th gear and declutch as the engine speed falls to, say, a little over 1000 rpm to then either stop or select an appropriate lower gear. The downside of this approach is that it eats into your time to observe.

Having re-read ScoobyChris' latest comment, I'd like to suggest there is a range of strategies for slowing down for a junction and, certainly, many people starting to do it the IAM/RoADAR way tend to drag out the braking over an extended distance, conflating gentle with smooth. Smooth only requires that the transitions onto the brakes and off again are tapered, and it is quite OK (and nearly always better) to do firm braking between.

Yup, but mine isn't a diesel. Gear selection might be different, but I'l use engine braking in 6th to reach a more appropriate hazard appraoch speed, which is likely to be 4th or even 3rd depending on the road, i.e. DC or A road and conditions.

Once in that approach gear, then use footbrake and prepare for GO or STOP decision.

I tend to think of a similar drill of making a final approach to landing an aircraft - the plane is configured during it's downwind and cross leg to configure for landing, so that finals is all about stabilising for the approaching "hazard". Making the complete change as you hit the RAB is akin to selecting flaps and approach speed, whilst you lower the gear 250ft from the runway threshold. Possible, but not ideal.

The caveat of course is this is only when I am thinking (and caring) about what I'm doing, and that's the reason I joined to try to eliminate the desire to use the VRs's maximum peformance in linear and lateral acceleration....

[stever750]

Did your observer say what he didn't approve about it?

Btw, not sure I agree with the second half of the sentence - I always found the loud pedal was the best way of making good progress

Chris

Yes, I was told it was inappropriate for road driving. I didn't get to discuss left foot braking

Interestingly, he also told me there was imply no need to position the car on the crown or verge to increase the distance of the vanishing point, which is what roadcraft advises. The logic being that there is no need during normal driving to do this - just slow down. I can understand that, but my feeling is anything you can do to reduce the unknown then that has to be a good strategy.

I meant good progress in the slowing down phase. I'm not planning to light up the TC lights during any observed runs in 1st let alone 3rd

[brownfox]

Police Grade 1 car and m/c Grade 1 to go onto traffic duties were re tested every three years, and for those who think once only and its for life are so wrong you realy had to try hard every time to re-pass and there were many failures, you do loose your edge even when driving 8hrs every day a re test at three years is definetely not a rip of but a must, if you want to stay sharp.

[ScoobyChris]

Yes, I was told it was inappropriate for road driving. I didn't get to discuss left foot braking

A legitimate example where it might be used is when turning on a downhill junction, using the brake to set and maintain the speed (to prevent the car speeding up due to gravity) and overlapping getting the gear. I can't remember if Roadcraft mentions this as one of the (infamous) BGOL scenarios.

Interestingly, he also told me there was imply no need to position the car on the crown or verge to increase the distance of the vanishing point, which is what roadcraft advises. The logic being that there is no need during normal driving to do this - just slow down. I can understand that, but my feeling is anything you can do to reduce the unknown then that has to be a good strategy.

I believe the IAM position on this is that they would rather you did not cross the centre lines but you can legitimately use all the roadspace inbetween. However, the examiners tend to be a little more open-minded and are happy for you to use the full width of the road provided it's safe and there is an advantage to doing it. The key for me is to use it to *develop* an existing view, rather than to try and gain a view by positioning from an already limited viewpoint balancing with things like potential tyre damage, other driver perceptions and expectations.

I meant good progress in the slowing down phase. I'm not planning to light up the TC lights during any observed runs in 1st let alone 3rd

Hehe - I make quite reasonable progress on the roads and rarely H'n'T. ISTR Gareth is similar, although he tends to make better progress

Chris