dpf removal - the legalities

[Official Ferris]

Hallo

I ou4chased my monte tdi 105 to do some.big motorway miles a year ago and now due to job changes I do local miles with the odd blast down the dual carriageway or b roads at the weekend. Im worried ill get dpf problems now my situ has changed. Other than sell the car and get something petrol - can I get away with going for a dpf delete? Uk mot guides say that its a pass as long as theres no evidence of dpf or cat removal ... and darkside do an exhaust that looks standard but removes the dpf.

Thoughts?

[Ootohere]

Why not worry about it if or when it happens.

ie, if the DPF is not causing you problems, where is the problem?

 

If you are planning on Tuning and Modifying the car,

i take it you have sorted that with your Insurance.

 

Keep what you remove doing a Decat and replace if it is an issue at MOT time.

Unlikely that it will be.

 

So the Legal Side is just down to having Valid Insurance

& the car being OK if inspected at a VOSA Roadside Check.

 

george

[philhoward]

Don't - it WILL be illegal as (I believe) it will nullify the cars Type Approval, hence will be not fit for use on the highway.

 

Aside from the reason it's there in the first place...to stop the harmful particles generated by CR engines getting into the atmosphere.

[Ootohere]

re EU Type Approval.

 

Since the Mk2 Fabia was Type Approved for 2007,

has any Fabia MK2 models/engine types been Type Approved since as the vehicle has been changed by the manufacturers?    

Obviously they meet 'Construction & Use'.

 

Was the Face Lift MK2 subjected to another Type Approval. for 2010 ?  

Engines did change to EURO 5 Emissions.

I believe no Type Approval has been done between 2007-2014 on Fabias.

 

Were any MK2 Fabias 'Type Approved' with 312mm Front Discs,

or After Market ARB's or Coil Overs?

[seboni121]

Well I've done 30k miles in my golf (same engine) and absolutely no issues ! I run mine on vpower nitro+ as its cleaner and runs a treat but I don't potter around but usually stay within speed limits generally , mostly

[Huskoda]

Regardless of the MOT, it's illegal to use on the road without it. As such, if you declare it, your insurer may decline to insure you. If you don't declare, you may face other problems down the line. There is a nice post from one of the forum sponsor insurers here that makes that clear.

[Official Ferris]

Thanks guys. Wont be removing now. The next issue is the legalities of the cat removal which may cause problems for many people.on here surely?

[silver1011]

DPF removal is not illegal.

 

Driving with an undeclared modification which could void your insurance is.

 

As has been mentioned keep the car, DPF issues tend to affect older PD engines and are far better when mated to a modern CR diesel engine.

[Ootohere]

Official Ferris,

 which petrol Fabias have people here been removing Catalytic Converters from?

 

george

[Official Ferris]

When I had a mk1 it was all the rage to have a straight through exhaust. Maybe im wrong :-/ maybe it doesnt count for older cars? Im really a newbie to this whole mot emissions debarcle

[GeneralPurpose]

DPF removal is not illegal.

 

Driving with an undeclared modification which could void your insurance is.

 

As has been mentioned keep the car, DPF issues tend to affect older PD engines and are far better when mated to a modern CR diesel engine.

Hi silver, actually it is illegal to remove the dpf and cat on a diesel vehicle if it is to be used on a public road. The dpf AND cat are a combined unit on most diesels. One cannot be removed without the other. Regarding removal, illegality for removal is now very clear since Feb 2014 with the specific mot check relating to physical presence. The car is illegal for road use without one. Tougher mot checks on particulates are also in the pipeline that will easily identify offenders, along with roadside checks.

Official Ferris, you most likely will find your dpf will be fine with your new journey. Dont be taken in by the massive hype about dpf issues. Most people never ever get problems. Good luck.

[mrgf]

Just to stick mu tuppence worth in…..

 

I would suggest that, if it IS legal to convert to non dpf, you will find the need to declare it on the log book and you will find that the vehicle becomes classified in a higher road fund bracket as it no longer meets the required level to get the discount. 

I think a standard diesel 1.4 Fabia, for instance, costs around £120 a year to tax, my Greenie, £20 and the newer greener green, free tax! Now, remove the cat, increase the sh-tuff that pumps out the tail-pipe, increase the tax burden! Same principle if you slap in a larger engine.

 

By non declaration, you may well be held up for tax evasion or fraud!

[fabiamk2SE]

Just to stick mu tuppence worth in…..

I would suggest that, if it IS legal to convert to non dpf, you will find the need to declare it on the log book and you will find that the vehicle becomes classified in a higher road fund bracket as it no longer meets the required level to get the discount.

I think a standard diesel 1.4 Fabia, for instance, costs around £120 a year to tax, my Greenie, £20 and the newer greener green, free tax! Now, remove the cat, increase the sh-tuff that pumps out the tail-pipe, increase the tax burden! Same principle if you slap in a larger engine.

By non declaration, you may well be held up for tax evasion or fraud!

Sounds a little extreme to me.

Either way. I wouldnt mess. With talk of all the MOT regulations changing, it sounds a little risky for my liking.

Id run it until (if) you get problems, then clear the dpf with a long run, and if it keeps coming back on often, id sell it and buy a 1.2tsi.

[Ootohere]

As to 'Slapping in a bigger engine',  which some of us do,  and do quite often,

& we Inform the DVLA, and then may or may not have to meet the Vehicles Original Emissions.

Its all rather a Grey Area.

[silver1011]

Hi silver, actually it is illegal to remove the dpf and cat on a diesel vehicle if it is to be used on a public road. The dpf AND cat are a combined unit on most diesels. One cannot be removed without the other. Regarding removal, illegality for removal is now very clear since Feb 2014 with the specific mot check relating to physical presence. The car is illegal for road use without one. Tougher mot checks on particulates are also in the pipeline that will easily identify offenders, along with roadside checks.

Official Ferris, you most likely will find your dpf will be fine with your new journey. Dont be taken in by the massive hype about dpf issues. Most people never ever get problems. Good luck.

 

Sorry, I have to disagree.

 

Opinion on this matter is divided and has been discussed at large in many threads.

 

My interpretation of the various documents available online is that removing the DPF is not illegal.

 

Driving a car with its DPF removed on the road is not illegal.

 

However driving a car on the road that does not meet the 'air pollutant emissions standards' is illegal.

 

Whilst it is likely that removing the DPF will prevent the car from meeting those emissions standards, it is also impossible to prove as diesels don't have their emissions tested as part of the MOT.

 

Some bed time reading for you here...

 

http://www.briskoda....4/page-1?hl=dpf

[Huskoda]

Its not a matter of 'opinion' or 'interpretation'. It is plain illegal. End of.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/263018/diesel-particulate-filters-guidance.pdf

 

It is an offence under the Road vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations (Regulation 61a(3)) to use a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet. Removal of a DPF will almost invariably contravene these requirements, making the vehicle illegal for road use. The potential penalties for failing to comply with Regulation 61a are fines of up to £1,000 for a car or £2,500 for a light goods vehicle. 

[Ootohere]

As you point out and wrote.  "Almost invariably".    & "Plain Illegal, end of".    

 

??Which is it?   'Almost'  or an Open and Shut case?

As always in the UK, the Government in the form of DtT & VOSA leave Grey Areas. With 'Guidance Notes'.

 

 Could of, should of, maybe should not of, who knows until  you find out.

If in doubt dont 'NIKE',, 

  If you are not doing it, then why stress on those that have.

 

Regeneration is not the most Green of Activities on cars with DPF's that decide they need to cook the Ash while burning extra fuel.

 

george

[fabiamk2SE]

So, what we're getting from this, is nobody really knows and its all a big grey area.

Just sell up n get a TSI. Theyre more fun anyway.

[Hudson1]

I have a friend who owns a garage and is an mot tester, at the moment its physical, he thinks it will change so that an actual test of what comes out of the pipe will be done, and if there is no DPF in there then it will fail, so whether its legal or illegal, it kind of becomes mute if the car will fail an MOT, and any buyer of a used DPF equipped vehicle would have to be mad to buy one with it removed, i know for sure that dealers are fully aware of this and check every car coming in for Px to make sure its still there..... i was going to removed my DPF, but not now, its just too risky and could cost a lot of money to put back when needs dictate.

Edited 19 June, 2014 by Hudson1

[Ootohere]

Hudson1,

its well over a year that you have talked about it now is it not,

& it might be another 2 or 3 years before MOT Testing Stations are told they need to buy testing equipment for when the DfT get their act together.

 

If everyone waits to do things they can be dead or there might be a WW3 & an Oil Crisis before they get anything done.

Might even die from Cancer caused due to Diesel Particular pollution.

 

I must remember not to stop in traffic behind a City Bus in Edinburgh.

 

george

 

PS, Only Dealers know for sure what they know.

 

Maybe some Skoda Dealerships should check cars before they sell 'Skoda Approved Used cars'.

Put all settings back to Factory Setting, Check the ECU to see there has been no Remap,

Do the latest Skoda ECU Updates.

Actually just check the car for the things that are supposed to be checked. which is why you are paying 'a premium'.

If only. 

  'If only a Technician can be sure the Oil Filer cap is on the car after a Service!'

[GeneralPurpose]

Sorry, I have to disagree.

 

Opinion on this matter is divided and has been discussed at large in many threads.

 

My interpretation of the various documents available online is that removing the DPF is not illegal.

 

Driving a car with its DPF removed on the road is not illegal.

 

However driving a car on the road that does not meet the 'air pollutant emissions standards' is illegal.

 

Whilst it is likely that removing the DPF will prevent the car from meeting those emissions standards, it is also impossible to prove as diesels don't have their emissions tested as part of the MOT.

 

Some bed time reading for you here...

 

http://www.briskoda....4/page-1?hl=dpf

Opinion may be divided but the law is clear, especially since Feb this year. If someone removes the dpf/cat the car is not roadworthy and cannot pass an MOT alowing it to be used on public roads. SIMPLES! ALL MOT testing stations have been notified to fail all vehicles without the dpf/cat unit being present. I have the notification in my desk. It cannot be clearer. End of.

Regarding emmisions from diesels, the only current test is a smoke test. A diesel with the dpf removed will usualy pass the test, but not always. Soon, a more thorough test is to be introduced.. Date to be determined. To be clear, there are no cr engined diesels capable of passing any future emmision tests without both the dpf and cat being present as the test will look for nox and particulates at a much enhanced rate . This will require new equipment for most testing stations. Similar mobile equipment will be used at the roadside to check vehicles. New penalties will ensue and will be severe in nature. Fines of up to 5,000 pounds might apply with vehicles being impounded. That was being discusssed at the last euro semina I attended All good stuff!.

[Ootohere]

But cars are passing MOT's since February 2014, with DPF's Removed.    

So the Examiner is passing them as Roadworthy since it is a visual check.

 

They have the same Notes & Guidance.

So not quite so Simple really.

[philhoward]

The law is one thing - enforcement is another.  Is every car that comes out of an MoT station with a certificate roadworthy?  According to the various reports that keep popping up, not always..

[GeneralPurpose]

Hi George, 

 

Yes, I understand what you are saying, but I haven't as yet seen or heard of a vehicle with a dpf removed pass an MOT since Feb this year. All my ex-colleagues (I took early retirement in January) are failing them. So if some testers are passing them they can lose their operators licence to test. The only thing that may be happening George, is the testers may believe the dpf is present and working, but the guts of it have been removed and the tester at the moment cannot check the output properly until the new equipment arrives. Otherwise, if they knowingly pass a dpf removed or tampered with car, they are committing an offence for which the tester is criminally liable. The owners too are committing an offence by using the vehicle on public roads punishable by a fine of several thousands of pounds. The law is very very clear, as is the MOT test rules. 

 

For clarification, look here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/263018/diesel-particulate-filters-guidance.pdf

 

NOTE the section on 'Legal requirements and the MOT test on the first page.

 

It's also worth noting why this is all happening. There is an absolute explosion (epidemic it's been called) of lung and brain disease being caused by diesel particulates. Those are the words of G'ment ministers in the health service.  Amongst the explosion in diesel engined cars over the last few years, the removal of dpf's by the less responsible part of the fraternity has increased exponentially. One car with the dpf removed can put out more particulates than 12 diesel cars with the dpf installed, and many many times more (around 18 times as much) nox and other nasty substances than a dpf equipped car. That's because the dpf contains the CAT which is also removed by removal of the dpf. But the particulates hang about in the air unseen for hours and are breathed in by us all as we drive and as we relax in our homes. They drift for miles. That's how bad it is. The EU and g'ment is doing what it has to do. The law is there to protect us all.

 

PS: Just notices Huskoda posted the same link earlier, but everyone do please read it. It's as clear as can be and all Testing Stations know this plus a load more actually! They all received their notifications by official channels way back. These rules also affect petrol cars whose owners remove the CAT.

Edited 20 June, 2014 by Estate Man

[Ootohere]

The UK DfT / VOSA have decided to ignore the Elephant in the room.

 

Air Bags & Air Bag Sensors.

They are out of Date on many UK cars, long past there Sell by Date, and Safe Usage date.

 

So lots of cars over 15 years old in the UK have Air Bags that may not deploy, or deploy safely.

But as long as 'the Air Bag Lights' work to check and then go out, that is all that anyone can check.

 

Many items on Vehicles are like that, they just get tested on the day, and if there is no Visible Issues,

it is deemed as Safe on the Day.

& most often there will be no problem with that.

 

george